Baby Got Backstory

BGBS 063: Douglas Davis | The Davis Group | Decide to Learn Something New

BGBS 063 | Douglas Davis | The Davis Group | Decide To Learn Something New

Brooklyn-based Douglas Davis enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right-brained creative problem solving with left-brained strategic thinking. Douglas’ integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor.

His expertise spans advertising, design, and business education and has found an international audience through presenting his tools on combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions. Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents at industry conferences including HOW Design Live, RGD Design Thinkers, The One Club Educators Summit, Midwest Digital Marketing Conference, Revolve, and The Art & Branding Conference.

In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co-chair of AIGA’s National Diversity and Inclusion Taskforce and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in Printmag.com, Applied Arts, and The European Business Review.

In 2011 Douglas founded The Davis Group LLC and continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital, and design problems. In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire high school, undergraduate, and graduate students. As the longest-serving member on the 4As High School Advisory Board, his experience was translated into the four-year curriculum at New York City’s High School for Innovation in Advertising and Media. Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for Advertising (MECA).

Currently, he is Chair of the Emmy-Award winning B.F.A. in Communication Design program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon’s Masters in Advertising and Brand Responsibility and City College’s Masters in Branding and Integrated Communications. Douglas holds a B.A. in Graphic Design from Hampton University, an  M.S. in Communications Design from Pratt Institute and an M.S. in Integrated Marketing from New York University.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• The importance of diversifying the minds and perspectives to address the world’s issues and industry changes.
• Try something new. Master something you’re not good at. Find the fear and reinvent yourself.

Resources

Website: douglasdavis.com

Case Study: Imported From Brooklyn

Youtube: Imported From Brooklyn Film

Win Without Pitching Article: Red, White, Black and Blue: The Land of Mixed Signals

COMD: douglasdavis.com/comd

LinkedIn: Douglas Davis

Quotes

[15:49] I like to say our job is to take the rational language of business and turn it into the emotional language of design…I also like to say that creative people really are the spoonful of sugar that make business and marketing objectives palatable to the public.

[42:52] We have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up, to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab?

[48:12] I’m going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It’s a mindset. Leading is a verb and a posture.

[53:55] We can’t measure everybody by the same yardstick…creative people like me and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures and conclude that something’s wrong with them, when they’re the ones with the superpowers.

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Podcast Transcript

Douglas Davis 0:00
I think when you look at what’s going on in society, when you look at design needing to become more diverse when you look at the demographics in America, when you look at how some people will describe what’s going on in the southern border as an, you know, an infestation. terrible word, other people describe it as well. It’s what humans do when they’re fleeing or in a situation where they have to flee. It’s what happens on every border, because if we’re having a crisis, here you go, and seek a better place to be.

Marc Gutman 0:41
podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like being backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby got backstory, we’re talking about strategy and changing the world. I’m not kidding. This episode goes deep and calls out those with the creative spirit to stand up and be the change. Before we get into today’s show. Can I level with you? This podcast ain’t cheap. But we continue to produce it as a service to you, the audience. And if today’s episode isn’t worth the price of admission, your time, then no episode is I need you. If you like enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify. Use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines rating on their charts. If you haven’t reviewed, you know who you are. And by the way, I do see who is reviewed and who hasn’t. What are you waiting for? review service. That’s it guilt trip over. Let’s get on with the show.

Today’s guest is Douglas Davis. I really don’t know where to start with Douglas. I first learned of Douglas when I read his book, creative strategy and the business of design. And it’s one of those books that literally changed my perspective and worldview on strategy and business. So I had to meet the person who wrote such an influential piece of work. And Boy, was I in for a surprise. Douglas Davis takes great pride in being Brooklyn based and in his words, enjoys being one of the variety of voices needed in front of and behind the concept. His approach to creativity combines right brained, creative problem solving, with left brained, strategic thinking. Douglass’s integrated point of view has enabled his natural evolution from designer to strategist, author, and professor, and his expertise spans advertising, design and business education, and is found in international audience through presenting his tools and combining the three to produce more effective creative business solutions.

Douglas enjoys interacting with creative people and regularly presents IT industry conferences, including how design live RGD design thinkers, the one club educators summit, Midwest digital marketing conference revolve and the art and branding conference. In 2016, Douglas wrote his first book, creative strategy in the business of design, a title currently being translated into Chinese by Beijing Normal University. He is a former co chair of AI je A’s national diversity and inclusion Task Force and regularly contributes to the business of design discourse in print mag comm Applied Arts in the European Business Review, Douglas founded The Davis Group, and he continues to offer strategic solutions to client branding, digital and design problems.

In addition to client work, Douglas leverages his professional experience to inspire High School, undergraduate and graduate students as the longest serving member on the four A’s High School advisory board. His experience was translated into the four year curriculum at New York City’s High School for innovation in advertising and media.

Following the launch, Douglas contributed as an education consultant for the launch of the Manhattan Early College School for advertising. Currently, he is the chair of the Emmy Award winning BFA and communication program at New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn, and serves on the advisory boards of the University of Oregon’s masters in advertising. And brand responsibility, and City College’s master and branding and integrated communications. Douglas holds a BA in graphic design from Hampton University, an MS and Communication Design from Pratt Institute, and an MS in integrated marketing from New York University. Wow, that was a big, big bio, we really don’t touch any of it, except for the book in this episode. And that’s why I wanted to share that with you. Now. I’m going to stop talking and turn it over to Douglas because well, this is his story.

I am here with Douglas Davis. And I couldn’t be more excited. Douglas.

Douglas Davis 5:47
I’m excited to be here to thank you so much.

Marc Gutman 5:49
We were just having a little conversation before recording. And I wish we were recording it. And I know this is going to be a great conversation and in a great episode. And Douglas is a strategist and author and a professor. He’s also the author of a book that I think is just gold called Creative Strategy and the Business of Design.

Here’s my copy Douglas. It is less it has dog years. It’s got notes, it’s got. It’s got post it notes, I mean, this thank you for your support. Yeah, this is like a resource for me, and I can’t wait to talk to you about it. It’s definitely one of my top, you know, 10 books on branding. Absolutely. But thank you for having me. Yeah. And in addition to being the strategist, author and professor, what are you doing right now? I mean, I see some Emmys in the background. I’m super impressed. When they tell us once you tell us a little bit about what else you’re doing cuz you wear a lot of hats.

Douglas Davis 6:43
I do. And first of all, Marc, I want to just say thank you, to all your listeners. Thank you all for spending time with us. My name is Douglas Davis, as Marc said, strategist, author, and professor. And right now my current role is that I’m also the chair of the BFA in Communication Design that New York City College of technologies, you know, Department of Communication Design, it’s sort of a big mouthful, but we’re part of the City University of New York, and over my shoulder, or the Emmys that we were able to when we were nominated for two of them for this story, imported from Brooklyn. And overall, it’s about, you know, what, what, how you find the path the possible when you have more ambition and resources. And so overall, we offer graphic design, illustration, we offer web design, we’ve got advertising, we’ve got graphic design, so you can come to our program for a fraction of the resources for a fraction of the cost is, you know, going to the design schools. But it’s a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to be here. And that’s what I do in my day job.

Marc Gutman 7:55
Oh, that’s so awesome. And I saw that you had put a Vimeo link in the chat is that to the piece that you just described,

Douglas Davis 8:02
That’s actually, we just recently entered the one show. And, you know, please Wish us luck, we’re in three different categories. But this is to the case study of what the impact of that piece imported from Brooklyn was. And so I just wanted to sort of throw that into the mix. Maybe I can go into the show notes, but I’ll also send a link to to import it from Brooklyn. It’s about 22 minutes documentary on Tony de spinia, who was my professor of prep, and I didn’t realize this until years later. But the program that I’m the chair of right now, Tony, when he emigrated to America, he wanted to go to Providence to didn’t have enough money. So he went to the communication design department. And just, you know, how wonderful, certain serendipitous, you know, that sort of connection is that I’m now the chair of this program that’s offering, you know, private school education and public school prices. So his story is the same story as our Asian, black and Hispanic, Eastern European students today. So it’s, it’s pretty wonderful in that way, you’ll check it out.

Marc Gutman 9:19
Yeah, absolutely. We’ll link to that in the show notes. We’ll make sure everyone knows about it. And I’m going to be watching that. Absolutely. After the after the interview. Thank you very much. So Douglas, what is Creative Strategy and the Business of Design? You know, I was thought design was just a bunch of like, you know, pretty colors and logos and, and some maybe some posters,

Douglas Davis 9:39
To a lot of us it is and I was really fortunate enough to have my skills polished in places that I couldn’t afford, like Pratt Institute for my first Master’s, but uh, just to back up a little bit. I went to Hampton University is historically black college, and I went to study graphic design and photography. Even before that in K through 12, I’m from I was born and raised in Lexington, South Carolina, a very small town, right outside of Columbia, South Carolina, the Capitol there. And surprisingly, we had really wonderful art program really wonderful. And wonderful in a way that I had, you know, in K through 12, murals, rock carvings, ceramic sculpture, the wheel, had exposure to printmaking, drawing, painting, all those different things, right, you know, going through K through 12.

Marc Gutman 10:35
So that, was that your primary interest then was that, like, were you? Or was it like a side thing? Or were you you were kind of an art art kid?

Douglas Davis 10:43
I was an art kid only because I was really bored, I didn’t have a place to channel that energy. And it was just a really great place to to focus my F, my just effort and attention on, I literally applied myself, you know, really didn’t apply myself Truthfully, I could go to class and listen, you know, be the class clown. And then the teachers like, what did I just say, and I could verbatim spit back every single thing, because I could do two things at once I wasn’t being engaged mentally. So when I found art, it was a place for me to focus and channel that energy and my behavior changed. And so maybe some of your listeners would be able to relate in that way that just having an outlet really did change my life in that way.

But in terms of what Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is, it’s what I was able to write down as, just as I fumble through my career, I realized that I had gone as far as I could go with my aesthetic training, and again, going to undergraduate going to graduate school, bouncing around from agency to agency design, firm, publishing digital. I also went to NYU and got another Master’s. But I realized that design school doesn’t teach you business, it teaches you to focus on what are the tactical parts of what should be strategic decisions, largest strategic decisions, without even explain to you what those decisions are, then.

So the challenge there is that when you are working somewhere, and you get promoted for doing your job really well for answering those client briefs in ways that are not only creative, but effective. I think there’s some assumptions sometimes that you must know strategy, because you’re able to knock it out of the park on, you know, all these different points. And so eventually, what I started to notice is that clients were not just coming to me for creative content, they were coming to me for strategic context. And I was uncomfortable with that, because I didn’t know strategy. And so I realized that over time, I started losing battles, even though I could write the proposal, build the team, you know, pitch the business, do whatever I needed to do. And I was able to get positions of responsibility relatively quickly as a result of that. But eventually, I started losing battles, because I couldn’t justify by the creative decisions within the context of the business and marketing objectives that we should have been trying to hit. And so I lost those battles. Because I fell back on my aesthetic, you know, I was arguing typefaces, well, we should have been talking about marketing objectives or metrics that we needed to hit within the business, you know, objectives. And so one day I stumbled into a strategy session, I realized, Oh, this is that thing that keeps beating me This is that that language that I don’t know how to speak. And so let me learn this. That’s why I went to NYU, to add the strategy to the creative side, so that I could, my rationale was that I could, you know, become a better creative because I could think, how they think to do what we do like to speak their language, in order to justify what was there. And I’ll give you one more piece of that, because this was, you know, you know, you’ve been in the business for a while.

This is back when you could learn ActionScript flash, this is back when you could choose to just double down on the execution part of things. And so even then, I realized, you know, what, I don’t want to sit outside the meeting, and wait for these people who are making decisions inside the conference room to come out and tell me what to do and when to have it and, and whatever. So how about I inject creativity into the beginning of solving a business problem, versus being a better executer? And I’m so glad I did that, obviously, because flashes no more. And I think that that’s, that’s a really important lesson. And a lot of those lessons are what, what I wrote down and Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, in addition to the tools, the frameworks, and the things that allowed me to get to where I needed to go when I added strategy to my creative skill set. So hopefully It’ll be useful to somebody to listeners.

Marc Gutman 15:03
Yeah, well, you know, I think so I mean, the concept of strategy has completely changed my life. I mean, when I started my career, like, I was exactly the the executer I was like, someone wanted something. And yeah, you know, I started in the movie business, and it was like, you want a story? Great. I’ll write that right guys. I didn’t even like ask why do you want the story? Right? Like, I was, like, so excited. And, and actually, I, I had a limiting belief that if I asked why that if I questioned it, I would either lose the job, or they would think I was, I was less intelligent or unintelligent, because I was asking questions, you know?

Douglas Davis 15:36
Well, that’s part of our that’s part of our superpower, right? In terms of those emotions, that you need to find a way to channel you need to find an outlet for It’s why we are I like to say our job is to take the rational Language of Business and turn it into the emotional language of design, that’s our job, we translate that for people. I also like to say that, you know, designers are the spoon. creative people really, are the spoonful of sugar that make business and marketing objectives palatable to the public. And so I can absolutely agree that that insecurity and even navigating those rooms where you don’t even know why they want something, and you’re a little afraid to ask questions, because you don’t want to seem as if you shouldn’t have been in that room in the first place.

All of those things, I think, are really, really important. And I dress dealing with your emotions, and just how to navigate different rooms. Because if you as you know, if when you’re walking into that room, after pouring your heart and soul into whatever you’re going to show, and you walk into that room full of people who you don’t know, and your emotions, that thing that got you into the room, because of your creativity are now your worst enemy, because you can’t even formulate the words, to articulate what it is that you’ve done. And I think, you know, all these things were things that I had to learn from failing.

And so the other piece, too, you know, design schools don’t teach business is that business schools don’t teach how to get the best out of designers how to inspire creative people. And I realized that because after going there, there was still this gap. And, you know, I had to learn that when you walk into that room as a creative person, they’re not going to learn creativity, you have to learn their language. And you have to then put the recommendation up front, instead of walking into the creative side of things where you’re going to tell the story. And you’re going to talk about the insight and we’re going to arrive at the end here it is, you have to completely flop how you even tell the stories in these rooms.

But all of those things were things that I had to learn through failing through having outcomes completely opposite of what I wanted to happen. So I can absolutely agree with some of those insecurities. And, and some part of what I teach now is really about organizing the chaos, questioning the answers that clients will come to you with, because they think that they know, or they’re still trying to get the same solution that worked six months ago, or in this case, now that we’re in Coronavirus times, you know, a year ago, but the environment shifted, and none of that still none of that’s even applicable anymore, in order to then turn insights in execution. So we have to retrain the way we listen as creative people. And some part of that is exactly what you’re talking about.

Marc Gutman 18:34
I mean, thank you so much for sharing that. And I couldn’t agree more. And, and and that in itself is a tremendous insight. I mean, what do you do when, you know, let’s just hop right to it, like, what do you do when a client has skipped that step? So, you know, hypothetically, you come in, and they’ve either, you know, started down a campaign road, or they say, look, we’ve chosen, you know, an identity, but, and you’re and then you know, you start to ask your questions, and you’re like, Well, wait a second, you haven’t gone to step one, like how do you handle that? Like, what do you do when that happens?

Douglas Davis 19:06
Yeah, well, overall, one good thing about having been in the business for a while and just being really, really specific about what it is that I do and what I don’t do. I haven’t been brought in, in a in a situation where there’s miscommunication like that in quite a while. But when I was in a situation where people thought that they needed me, but didn’t know how much the value of what I would be bringing with cost in asking those questions and and realizing, oh, okay, you’re not clear that the way that you’re going about this is what you want, but it’s not what you need.

And I think for me, I’ve always just walked into the room and been very Matter of fact, and either you hire me or you don’t, but I’m going to tell you what you need because I’m the expert and I’ll make The recommendations, but as the client, you will make the decisions. And so it’s become really easy to to really listen and to know really quickly, whether I’m going to refer you to other sites or other people, because either a, you don’t have the budget or B, you’re not clear, you need a little bit more information, in order to shift away from being price sensitive, or you need a little bit more information to shift away from that thing that you saw that you liked, that you want the exact copy of that you’re not saying. But that you, you’re basically going to critique all the work and through a series of meetings, you know, we’re going to come out with the exact copy of something else.

And so I think, being willing to walk away, being willing to refer other people and being willing to say, you know, if you go to this website, you can be up and running in an hour. Or if you go to this mix of websites, you can have what you need to and under five grand, and then I add the last piece, and so can your competitors. And after that, I think there’s a little bit of a pause, been, you know, we can have a conversation where we back up a little bit, and then we can start talking about the value of the services that they need, whether they hired me or not. But I think it’s important to just take control of the conversation in a way that you are offering things that makes the client think and it may not even be in that current conversation, it may take a couple of weeks, but giving them something to think about. And then sort of being willing to let it go, has been the way that I’ve been able to navigate situations where I’m really not the right person. It’s best for everybody, if you just you know, shut it down.

Marc Gutman 21:54
Absolutely, I’ve had to walk away from my share. And that I also learned that the very hard way, I mean, I look back at all the things that went bad and all the mistakes I made. And I wouldn’t know that without doing it. But it was typically like, there were a lot most of the time, I’d say there were like misalignment issues. Right now. And, and you just learn that the hard way. And I think that’s sometimes the only way to learn. So when we look at your book, and we look at it, a lot of the work you’ve done here, if there was like one thing that we were to know about this book and take away, what would that be? And then what framework is like, you know, I know there’s no silver bullet, but which one is the one that’s like, if I had to only kind of do one, i i’d lean into that.

Douglas Davis 22:37
What chapter six and seven? That was the last question first chapter six and seventh deal with the creative strategy framework, which is literally an alignment exercise. You know, it’s, it’s something I developed when I was at NYU, when one day, my competitive strategy professor, you know, sort of looked out at the class and held the the whiteboard, pen out, and looked out and says, you know, who’s going to step to the board, and I stepped to the board, I was the first one grabbed that pencil. And I started working out this column that, you know, was was four columns and three steps that would help me to organize the chaos, because when I first started learning the language of business, it was new. And so I could be on brand, but off strategy or message on message, but off strategy. And so it takes a little time to speak and understand the language of business.

But this tool helps to organize all the information by going through a series of steps where you qualify what the information is that you’re dealing with, to create and build your creative work or concepts or just coming up with thought starters, you could use it as a brainstorming tool. I’ve actually sat in meetings with clients and literally started to write the notes from the briefing into the framework so that I could take what wasn’t given to me back to the creative team, stick it up on the whiteboard, and we could just literally hit the ground running where the client left off. But that’s really what I would say that that tool and any tool, any framework, you know it we’re not talking about something that’s a recipe, right? We’re not talking about something that is, you know, fill in the blanks, and you’ll voila, you’ll have this any strategy, any any design even, that’s worth its salt is going to be a custom solution. And so the framework, I always like to say is only as good as the information that you put into it, the thinking that goes into it. So yeah, that’s that’s the one tool that if you didn’t go anywhere else,

Marc Gutman 24:49
This is the one we’re talking about. Right. Great. And so I’ll just kind of hold it up there so people can see and get a sense about it. But that’s, that’s it.

Douglas Davis 24:56
That’s the one tool that would be that now, the one thing That I would tell people about the book would be that this book is for someone who understands that our careers are a series of transitions, right? You go to you go to college, and you transition from being a student, to breaking into the industry, then you break, you’ve broken into the industry, you transition from being a junior, to someone who’s seen a little battle. And then you transition from someone who’s seen a little battle to someone who gets a little bit more responsibility.

Now, there are people who report to me, I’m sort of client facing now. And then you move from that person to someone who, at different points might even be a little bit intimidated that the people who are coming in might be a little faster, might have a little edge, because they’re the last people and even though they’re going to get paid the least, you know, you start to wonder whether you can hold your own as things shift so fast.

So the one thing that I would tell people about Creative Strategy and the Business of Design is that it’s built for a person who understands that what we do evolves, it shifts. And we all know that, whether it’s learning flash, or ActionScript, or whether it’s learning about new typefaces, or learning about Slack, or and how to use Basecamp. And all these different things are like a timeline that sort of bring us from the very beginning, and to where we, where we are, and then it keeps going because now we have Tick Tock and we got clubhouse, and you know, everything is going to continue to change. And as creative people, we’ve always understood that we’ve always done that in a way that would allow us to, you know, survive, because we’re continuing to change.

But I think when I think about 1999, when I entered the industry, you know, the.com recession, and all the websites that were there, people didn’t know how to make money on the web, I wish that people would have known that, you know, direct marketing was the father of digital because it’s, you know, accountable, you can track it, right. But nobody knew that. So they’re throwing all this money into this new medium, that my professors at the time I was at Pratt, my professors at the time and not worked in. And so I’m applying my skills, these traditional skills to this medium that no one’s worked in who’s taught me and you realize that, you know, in 99, no one had a web design degree, because it didn’t exist, you couldn’t study it. Everybody who was there participating in that industry was there because they decided to learn something new.

And I think that that’s a really important insight, because I think we’re back there right now. If you think about the ways that the Coronavirus has made everyone have to pivot, we have to figure out ways to do the same thing, the exact same thing and complete different ways. Or we have to figure out ways to take what we’ve already what we have on hand skills or equipment or whatever, and do something completely different. And so I think, when you look at where things were back, then and 99, where you can go to school to learn web design, but there’s this industry, you realize that your skills, your willingness to be agile, to change, to morph, that’s what actually allows you to survive.

And when you add on top of it, the trend, you know, Apple, Microsoft, Google, they’re saying the you know, since actually since 2017, that you don’t have to have a college degree to enter their ranks, we’re back to a point where skills, what you can do, the value that you bring as a person, regardless of what your degree says.

That’s what matters. And so I think that the book is about those transitions. And, and I wrote it obviously, before we were in this point, because the principles are what we’re really talking about here, when you’re really understanding that what we do will always evolve, and it’s going to evolve at the speed of business, it’s going to evolve at the speed of the next thing that marketers are going to create that we’re going to have to figure out ourselves to engage and build the relationships that our clients want us to build with our customers who are going to join that platform, and who are going to adopt it in mass in ways that we’re gonna have to figure out how to show up and you know, entertain them in a way that they’re not shutting us off or blocking us. And I think that that evolution and change that constant change is something that I’m encouraged that as creative people that we’re dealing with this pandemic right now. Because who better?

Who better to deal with something to change the whole world in an instant? If they no snapped his fingers? We literally were in a situation Where how you enter the industry was different. How you work when you’re in the industry is completely different. And we’re literally back where we, as the people with experience, we’re in the exact same position, as I was saying about in 1999, where my world class practice, the two professors had no experience in this thing that I was going to apply my skills to, were literally back to that point where none of us with experience has more experience than any student.

And any, like, we’re back, it’s leveled the playing field, but who better to to navigate that, who better to lead that then creative people who have to do that to save their lives, every single time anyway, you have to reinvent yourself. So that’s the one thing that I would say that the book will help you to do. And you know, I always tell people, it’s very similar to like a Harvard Business Case Study, if you’re, if you’re familiar with that, where your objective is to read it, and then figure out who the decision maker is, and then play that person’s role, you step into their role. And everything that you’re reading for is to find your, your recommendation, the risk and rewards are what you would do in that situation.

So it’s about role playing, and sort of stepping into those shoes. The book gives you the stories of why these things are important that I’m going to talk to you about. The book tells you the stories of how I got here, it gives you my story and the way I do it, but it’s asking you to bring yourself to it. It’s asking you to take the thought process the principles, and then apply it to your own situation, and figure out how to save your own life. That’s what this is about the transitions.

So that’s the one thing that I would tell you, if you’re interested in the book, if you want to keep reinventing yourself, this is this is going to help you do that, because it’s going to teach you the language of how things change. And that one tool that, you know, if I said, you know, all the other ones have to fall away, would be the creative strategy framework, because it helps you to organize that chaos. And it’ll help you to only focus on what’s relevant, and solving the problems and those four columns and three steps in order to question the answers that the client comes to you with, so that you can you know, organize that chaos, question those answers and turn insights into executions. And those executions can be the actual work themselves, it could be the brainstorming session, it could be the brief because sometimes, going back to what I was saying about business school doesn’t teach how to inspire designers, we’ve all had a brief that’s the size of a novel that’s completely worthless, that was given to you by somebody who has a strategist title, and who came from sort of the business side of things, but who has no idea how to talk to a creative person.

And that’s what’s so ironic that the very things that make us professionals to be on the same team to service that client don’t even teach us to talk to each other. So sometimes to have a sound strategy, you got to write to yourself as a creative person, to even have one. And so this framework will help you either get started on the creativity part of things, thought starters, it’ll help you write the briefs. It can help you with strategy itself. But it’s a very, very elastic tool that I’m asking you to bring yourself to.

Marc Gutman 33:39
A common question I get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we’ll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wild story, comm and send us an email, we’ll get you booked right away. So whether you’re just getting started with a new business, or whether you’ve done some work and need a refresh, or whether you’re a brand that’s high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call, you’ll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you’ll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We’ll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for, build the brand you’ve always dreamed of. Again, we’ll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstorm comm and send us an email. Now back to the show.

I just feel like I got a master class in a few minutes. There. are on strategy and you’ve really changed actually my perspective and worldview I’m, I’m kind of caught up in obsessed with relevance and this idea of staying relevant being relevant, am I relevant? How do I stay relevant? I recently had a post where I was music, I have never felt the right age, you know, when I was younger, I always wanted more, and to be in someone else’s seat. Now, as I’m further my career, I’m looking back and be like, oh, there’s all these tick trackers, like, as you’re mentioning, all these things happening, that I don’t know, but, but the way you just describe that, and what I heard was that reinventing yourself and always learning something new as a gift and an opportunity. And, you know, I haven’t always looked at it that way. And so I just want to take a moment and pause. And thank you for that. Because that’s changed really how I am seeing this, this concept of relevance. And I want me to ask you, like, on this topic of relevance, is that one of the reasons you teach?

Douglas Davis 35:55
It is, and yet, I, you know, if you were to ask me, if I was going to teach one day, this is, you know, back when I’m bouncing around from agency to agency, I’d say the guy you know, and I thought, the farthest age that I could think I was, like, yeah, I teach when I’m, like, 35, or something, this is me like 22 or 23.

And it ended up that I started teaching at 25. And, you know, the model was always there that my teachers, I pride, they worked in the day, and they taught at night. And so I saw that. And so I realized that, you know, ended up being what I saw. And yet in some ways, the relevance part, I’m going to sort of unpack this as well, because I think that this word and the change, and what’s going on in our industry is something that is a larger issue that’s also going on in our society that I think we have to deal with. But I remember, as I mentioned earlier, I went to Hampton University, historically black college to study graphic design and photography.

After leaving there, as I mentioned, I went to private Institute to get my masters. And then after maybe about seven or eight years of losing, like I said, while winning but losing different battles, because I didn’t know how to speak that language. I then went to get my second Master’s in integrated marketing, I didn’t want you. And what I realized lately is that not only did my high school guidance counselor not have a one, even one conversation with me about college, but in those three institutions, there was no one black teaching design or, or strategy. And then I became a design professor, then I became a strategy professor.

I think, when you look at what’s going on in society, when you look at design needing to become more diverse, when you look at the demographics in America, when you look at how some people will describe what’s going on the southern border as an, you know, an infestation. terrible word. Other people describe it as will, it’s what humans do, when they’re fleeing, or in a situation where they have to flee. It’s what happens on every border, because if if we’re having a crisis, here you go, and seek a better place to be. I think when we’re talking about relevance, when we’re talking about representation, when we’re talking about being able to see yourself, I can’t say that I teach because I, I didn’t see someone like me. But I can say that, if we’re talking about design changing, if we’re talking about the issues that are in our profession, also being a part of what’s in our society. I think that when we talk about relevance, I think we have to really have the conversation that is on the base of the Statue of Liberty.

It’s calling out to immigrants. But our policy has been so different in the past, you know, very different in the past four years, if equal justice under law is on the top of the Supreme Court, and yet, we’re watching the George Floyd trial right now in front of us. And there is witness after witness up there telling you that the sequence of events that happened were completely unique and different than what would have normally happened. Then, I think when we talk about relevance, and when we talk about America living up to its melting pot, you know, equals and, you know, liberty and justice under our equal justice under law.

I think we have to really talk about belonging. We have to really talk about the fact that people are coming to us because they believe what we say If we were a company, these would be our mission statement documents, these will be our vision documents, but there’s so many mixed signals that are built into what they say, and what the actual experiences. And a lot of times, as you mentioned earlier, alignment is what we’re being asked to do as creative people we’re being asked to come in and align some problem. And I always start with, well, where’s the gap between what we say? And what the people’s experience is, whenever they trust us? I close that. And I think relevance and belonging are why people are coming to us. But I think that we have to start asking ourselves, as institutions as an industry, are we relevant? Because there’s a call and response here? various people come to various institutions or employers or countries, they’re basically asking, do I belong? And based in their interactions with the country or with the employer, or with the client, good or bad? They’re going to conclude yes or no. And I think that if we can, as an industry, but also as individuals continue to ask ourselves a question that you asked, am I relevant? Are we relevant? If your metric on yes or no, I am relevant or not, I’m not relevant.

It’s tied to how many groups of people feel comfortable in the space that you’ve created, how wide your arms are open, then that is a call and response because it’s connected. And if you do care about being relevant, but you do see that some people have decided that they don’t belong, based on whatever environment you influence or which is created, or what you’re a part of, the next step is to go get those people to understand why, right? And so I’m mixing culture, I’m mixing, you know, what’s going on in America.

But you can’t separate it from the problems that are in our industry, you can’t, it’s not possible to separate the two. And when you look at it like that, it explains what’s going on in our industry, whether we’re talking about relevance, or belonging. And I think that if we don’t become really serious about this, we’re there will be threats to creativity, because of diversity being hindered. And I’ll go back to just on this point, I’ll go back to again, we got clubhouse. Before that it was you know, tick tock. And before that it was Snapchat before that was Twitter, right? And before that Facebook, and I can keep going because it’s gonna keep going. So why in the world, would you not want as many different types of minds on the problems when the industry moves at the speed of business, and we’ve already covered that we have to keep changing, we have to keep growing, we have to keep learning, to even keep up to even remain relevant. Why would you not want as many different minds or perspectives on a problem that you can grab?

And so I say this, in hopes of some of your listeners who I know are creative professionals who have influence over their studios, who could determine how exactly to staff, I’m saying this to your listeners, because I’m hoping that they can really think about the new barriers that COVID-19 has posed, since we’re all in our houses. You know, right now, going to school depends on your own bandwidth, your own internet speed, your own Mac, your own whatever, right.

But if you think about it, we’re asking people who don’t have a lot to buy the equivalent of a computer that cost as much as the car just to go to school. And, you know, if you don’t control what your internet speed is, because if you live in public housing, you know, again, people are going to college in order to get out of this the circumstances that they were born into in many cases, and all they need is a chance. And so, the Coronavirus has put us in a situation where, you know, there are a lot more barriers that are different. And some of the barriers that were there before are not there anymore. So some of it is leveled the playing field. But I think that belonging and relevance like these, these words that we we often talk about as people who are tasked with solving brands problems, you know, do our customers feel like they belong? are we creating a culture where we’re solving their problems, like what are their pain points that we discussed that stuff all the time, we talk about relationship management, we’re a field built on targeting, we craft messaging, you know, there are all these different words that we talked about.

And yet, when we exclude groups of people from sitting around the table, then not only can we not hear their perspective of what creativity is, and how we can solve this problem that it’s, it should be different than ours. But we also put ourselves in a situation where we’re not helping ourselves in in the demographics that are shifting, you know, because either what’s either your client base is going to become more black and brown, or either the people sitting at the table, this should be it should be, shouldn’t be really an ad or should be both. But overall, on order to serve that client basis, becoming more black and brown with the demographics of the nation, you got to make sure that they’re people behind the concept, who actually understand how to talk to these groups, so that you’re being authentic, and you can build that trust. And that you can actually build the customer base because that takes, you know, making promises, and then actually delivering on them. So, again, I know I expanded that into way more, but it’s bigger. And again, the strategist in me won’t allow me to sort of just look at those two words, as just those two words. The strategist in me says, You know what, this is much bigger. And there are a lot of pieces to this, if we’re going to continue to evolve to remain relevant, if we’re going to continue to, you know, now I think apply our skills to new systems design, operations, forecasting, decentralized decision making, all those things are the things that I believe are the new creative skills as a result of the Coronavirus.

All of that is what’s coming out of how you got to pivot because your clients are asking how we’re going to pivot, then it’s going to be your job to also have an opinion on some of those things. This is the next evolution of all the things that creative people have to learn. In order to stay relevant. I’ll give you this one last piece. I literally just days ago finished a class on finance, from Harvard Business School online. I hate Numbers, chapter one in the book, first paragraph, I take you back to NYU when I’m sitting in my statistics class, and I want to somebody shoot me in the face, because it was too much. However, what is my point? I understand that at my altitude, and at my point, like where I’m at in my career, if I don’t understand how to talk to other people who do get it. If I don’t understand how to ask the right questions, if I don’t understand which levers I can pull on my level, then I’m not going to get the business, I’m not going to be chosen, somebody else is going to be chosen. So me taking a finance class 15 $100. Okay, I hate numbers. But I’m going to find the fear.

Gonna find the fear just like I did when I was bad at typography. And I said, I’m only going to use type on this particular solution, because I’m going to turn my weaknesses into strengths. And that is the evolution. It’s a mindset leading is a verb, and a posture. And as creative people, I believe that we will lead us out of this crazy mess that we’re in right now. Whether it’s climate change, whether it’s our social ills that we’re going through right now, this just horrible Asian hate, or just you know, what happened in your area with, you know, people not having access to mental health and just having so many guns, I don’t even know why people do what they do, but that the systems need to be redesigned. And relevance and belonging are the questions that we will be judged by. It’s bigger than just words, this is how we are going to survive. And I’m hoping that in talking about it in a way that I’m scaling it up, unpacking all the different pieces, connecting these dots on something that’s much bigger than just your job, the problems your client has, and you being able to like navigate that stuff. It’s much bigger than that. And if we can see it as creative people, as bigger than that, I believe that they’re the opportunities there for us to lead. That’s what I believe. That’s what I believe. Wow.

Marc Gutman 49:36
I mean, I believe the same and taking that leadership role. And you know, what I’ve always loved about this idea of design. So when we take it in a very literal sense, you know, I think of it in terms of graphic design of aesthetics of type and I’m like, I wish I was a designer. I’m not a designer. I love designers. I love being around them. I love being in their spaces. There’s every there’s something magical about it. But when I really think about what design means to me, it’s exactly what you just articulated. It’s it’s seeing the problems, both the ones in front of us and the ones that that expand out of Yeah, of the the the first maybe insight or initial problem, and then coming up with creative, innovative solutions to solve those problems. And I agree, I think creatives are our only hope right now. And they’re going to lead us to, to the new world. And yeah, no dog was on that topic of diversity. I mean, what is the step that creative leaders can take? Besides the the obvious of like, Hey, we need more representation at the table, because I hear that a lot. And I hear people putting energy into it, but I’m not seeing it in the way that you just articulated. And I think that’s where we want to get to, you know, no doubt.

Douglas Davis 50:56
So I’m gonna be I’m gonna be blunt, like we are in Brooklyn. I think a lot of times when I hear, again, our industry that’s built on targeting and messaging and, and like, we get that stuff, but yet there are a lot of people are excluded. Right? as a percentage of the population, you can’t understand that stuff. Like that can’t be your job, your industry, and yet, we’re leaving people out. Right, like, and that’s what targeting is right? You not you, you, not you, right. So we’re deciding to leave people out. And I like to tell people who asked this question, I think it would come from a really good place who really do want to do something different. Now school, you know, what do we find people can’t really find, you know, qualified candidates of color and x y&z. I, my answer to that is that I’m not a black white person. Don’t look for me in the same places, and in the same way that you would if you’re looking for white person, of course, you can’t find me.

Of course you can’t. I’m not there. You’re looking for me as if I was not me. And then when you say, Well, I looked, and I can’t No, you didn’t look, and you didn’t even understand that you’re not looking for me. And I think that that’s the part that has to be corrected. I also think that we have to rethink the measures of what we’ve used to determine someone’s aptitude or potential, whether it be for leadership or, or carrying a gun, frankly, as a policeman. I think we’ve got to rethink what we’ve used to judge someone’s worthiness or potential. I took the LSAT probably about three times.

And again, I mentioned earlier that my guidance counselor in high school, we never had one conversation about college, not 1/11 grade summer, I said to myself, you know, what, if I don’t go to college, I wanted to be because I didn’t choose to go versus I couldn’t go. So I chose to go to summer school, I chose to finish my foreign language requirements, I chose to take extra math, like get it right, I chose to take the LSAT three times. And in those three times, I got to like a 720, or 780, I can’t even remember. But on that measure, Marc, I’m stupid. If I were to let that number, tell me dictate to me what I was and was not capable of in the future, then I’m stupid. And I’m so thankful that that’s not how I didn’t listen to that, like, What do you know about me? None of these questions were even crafted with me in mind. So of course, I didn’t do well. And I’m not just saying that, like, Everything about it is wrong.

I am saying though, that we can’t measure everybody by the same yardstick. And that doesn’t mean that one is better than the other. It just means that there are other ways. And and people learn differently as creative people, you know that we all know that. And yet, we don’t apply that to the standard measures that we’ve always used to gauge someone’s potential. And I think that there’s something wrong with that. Because, you know, creative people like me, and you can grow up comparing themselves to other people based on those measures, and conclude that something’s wrong with them, when they’re the ones with the superpowers. You know, and I think that that is something that’s really important. We have superpowers and I’m not saying that being able to crunch numbers is not a superpower. It definitely is. But I am also saying that being bad at numbers is an indicator that you might be a creative. Think Overall, we really have to rethink our measures. We’ve got it and again, this is back to new systems design. This is back to us thinking through what’s wrong? And if you if you really look at this right,

I love this example. You know, there are more design decisions than there are visually literate people to make them. How do I know this? Well, if on live TV, the best picture is announced lala land and not moonlight because of the card, then that tells me that there was a problem that needed to be solved. There were people around who who had the title and the tools, but who are not visually literate. What is another example, if the wrong Mr. Universe gets crowned on national TV? What is another example if the Supreme Court has to determine who the President is because of the ballot design? What is another, I can keep going all day? Right? So there are more visually, there are more design problems than there are visually literate people to make them. And so again, like I’m back to this place, that we’ve got to redesign our systems, there’s so much broken, and there’s so many sort of problems to solve. And, you know, if you’re like me, as a creative person, you can’t unsee all the work around us. Because there’s so many things to redesign.

There’s so many things to rethink, but I think we can do it. And I think, you know, I was thinking about Okay, so what are the new measures, I would argue that we should have a grid metric, you know, if you don’t come from money, the money’s not the first thing that you think about to solve a problem. I want that person on my team, because that person had everything but money, that person has creativity, that person is thinking creatively, that person is not just like, yeah, we’ll throw XYZ in the budget at the problem. Yeah, we’re gonna need money at some point. But if you don’t have money, you still got a problem that you got to solve. And, you know, I would much rather have a grip metric, somebody who had to fight through some stuff. In order to get here. I want to know your story. How’d you get here? What do you do when you have more ambition and resources? You know, how did that work? And how, you know, what is your origin story? How did you get here, I can only see you now. You know, and oftentimes, I’m always really, really clear that, yes, I have three Emmys, you know, over my shoulder, and yet, it was not always like that.

And so I’m making a point to tell young creators, that it was a struggle, it was a struggle, because I don’t want anybody to get the wrong idea. It wasn’t always easy. And it’s not easy now. And so I think there’s so much work to do. There’s so many systems that we have to redesign and rethink. And the right people to do that, are you and I want to put another link in the chat that sort of deals with all of this, this sort of social, creative sort of mix that I’m putting together, because I’m looking at this as our competitive advantage as a nation, just like Michel Porter’s book, you know, competitive ventures of nations, this is a big problem that if we’re not careful, we are going to lose out because there’s so much human potential that we don’t allow, because of the color of somebody’s skin, or because of their gender, or because we’re worried about which bathroom, you’re going to use stupid stuff that if we could just focus on, you know, how someone’s mind would process dealing with this issue.

We can be so much farther ahead than we are right now. But we’re caught up on stupid things that divide us. And I think that, you know, I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful, especially in this generation, because they grew up in a time where, you know, the only president that they knew was black. But it wasn’t even a hurdle that like a black person could be president, right? They grew up in a time where now the vice president as a black woman, who also is, you know, has Asian descent as well, like these MCs, these these barriers that we had, like, you can have same sex unions, like all the stuff that took forever, right? It was just it was here, we had made the progress by the time that they were born. And so I hope that they can do something about the climate. I hope that because of their energy, and because they don’t have the same limitations that we had. I hope that their creative problem solving skills that we we get out of the way that we let them apply themselves to these big problems.

Because if we, if we’re not talking about if we keep talking about logos, we keep talking about like the job, then we’re part of the problem because we’re not even addressing all the other things that we better start to like attention to. And it you know, it would be embarrassing if I didn’t speak out, based on all the things that I had to navigate to even get here. And I think that, that that’s just always a really important thing that, you know, I have to touch on those things, things that, you know, may seem, you know, like third rail, but I, you know, I think we have to be more deliberate about closing the gap, the mixed signals that are there between what we say and what the experience is in America, you know, none of us as professionals would advise our client to do the complete opposite of everything hit the brandy, mission statement, and just the who would do that? Who would do that? No, but none of us. And so why do we tolerate it? Why do we tolerate it in society?

And I think that again, because that’s what we do, we should be the ones leading the conversation about how to make change. And I know that, you know, some people might be listening to like, well, this is outside of the lane of what I do. You know, I’m here to learn about tips and tricks about how to, like, you know, do better my job. And yes, I hear you, you know, I hope that there was something there that you could also listen to, but I also hope that you’ll take your superpowers and think about our systems that are broken, they need your skills. That’s why I’m talking to you about this, because you’re a part of who can fix it, because of your creativity. And so I’m calling out, because, you know, we need a different type of person to go into these other professions, you know, or else we’re lost. We’re lost. But I’m hopeful.

Marc Gutman 1:01:52
In that is Douglas Davis. I’ve goosebumps as I sit here, goosebumps and a bit like I was just shaken into my senses, that we need to stop talking and start doing that I me, because it starts here must work to close the gap, to open my arms and bring more of the world into the conversation. I hear you, Douglas. There was so much gold in this episode. And I can’t wait to get Douglas back on the show. So we can hear his story. As he shared it hasn’t been easy. And he’s worked his tail off to find success in this industry. I hope you’re as excited as I am to hear all about that in the future as well. Inspired by Douglas, I challenge you.

What new thing are you going to decide to learn? make a commitment to learning something new, put a flag in the sand. Email us if you’re so bold with what it is. I want to know that I’ll share it with Douglas as well. We are living in such an exciting time as the story is being written as we live it. We have an incredible opportunity to reinvent ourselves, learn new things and change the world. really change the world. It’s our job to reinstate that American mission statement on the Statue of Liberty. I’m up for the challenge. Are you a big thank you to Douglas Davis. You inspire me professionally, personally, and culturally. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my friend.

We will link to all things Douglas Davis, his book Creative Strategy and the Business of Design, imported from Brooklyn, and much more in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Douglas come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstorm.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

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BGBS 062: Dr. Sarabeth Berk | More Than My Title | What Do You Do??

BGBS 062: Dr. Sarabeth Berk | More Than My Title | What Do You Do??

Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She was featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author, and recipient of a Colorado Inno on Fire award for her innovative work.

Through a decade of research and coaching, Sarabeth developed a one-of-a-kind approach that takes personal branding to a whole new level. Her hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist/researcher/educator/designer identities together to lead and create innovative strategies that radically connect resources and people in new ways.

Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K-12, higher education, startups, and nonprofits.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• Reflective tips and tricks to start identifying your uniqueness/hybridity
• How to answer the daunting question of “What do you do?”
• The benefits of finding your professional hybrid identity to pinpoint who you are at the intersection of your many strengths

Resources

Instagram: @morethanmytitle

Facebook: More Than My Title

LinkedIn: Sarabeth Berk

Website: morethanmytitle.com

Quotes

[16:03] My entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning. I think that’s really who I am.

[22:48] Your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you. No one else has combined identities that way and that’s what makes you unique and strong in whatever you’re doing for work.

[26:50] The reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important and you know why they fit together, then you know your uniqueness, you know why you’re different than all the other “roses” and “fish” and “dogs” because we’re all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes.

Have a Brand Problem? We can help.

Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.

• Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process
• Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh
• Determine if your business has a branding problem
• See examples of our work and get relevant case studies
• See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level

Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY

Podcast Transcript

Sarabeth Berk 0:02
And the zone of genius is a place where you’re in flow, you’re at your best, you’re most energized, alive, things are effortless. And in those moments, people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it, how their parts, their different identities were being activated, if at the same time. So this one teacher was like, you know, I’m being an empath by hearing the problems with my students and giving them guidance and counseling, but I’m also sharing knowledge and also bringing in creativity. And I’m also this and also this. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that’s the intersection. Like, is this really how it works that when we feel our best, and our work, we’re in the intersection of our of our work. And I started knowing I was onto something like that was the beginning of a hunch. So I kept checking it out testing it, right. Like I was trying to understand do more people have this too, and sure enough, they do.

Marc Gutman 0:58
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big Back stories, and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman. And on today’s episode of Baby Got Back story, I want to know, what do you do? Really? What do you do? If this question gives you pause? Or if you’ve ever felt anxious at a party or event? When someone asks you, what do you do? And there’s no real great way to say it? Not really, then stay tuned, because this episode is for you.

And before we get into the show, here’s a reminder, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings they really do as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we like ratings. So please go ahead and give us a review. If you like the show.

Today’s guest is Dr. Sarabeth Berk. In that question. What do you do? was a tough one for her to answer. She did many different things from design to research to innovation. And she never had a good answer to that. That question. I don’t know about you. But when I don’t have a good answer, I Google for it. Then I maybe read a blog. But Sarabeth, she went full researcher on the question, discovered that work professionals have many different identities and where those identities intersect. Well, that’s where the magic happens.

Today, Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She has been featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author and the recipient of a Colorado inno on fire Award for her innovative work. Sarabeth’s hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist, researcher, educator designer identities together to lead and create innovation strategies that radically Connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, in the Rhode Island School of Design, so she knows what she’s talking about. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K through 12, higher education, startups and nonprofits. And this is her hybrid story.

I’m here with Sara Berk, the Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title, Sara, thanks for coming on the show. And let’s get right into it. What is a Creative Disruptor?

Sarabeth Berk 4:10
Hey, Marc, thanks for having me. Ah, the Creative Disruptor question. Well, essentially, I didn’t know what to call myself. I was more than my job title. And I did all this work, which we can talk about reflecting on like, Who am I really like, what do I want to be called? And I noticed I’m a person that challenges and pushes and changes information because I see it differently. And that was like that disrupter inside of me. But then also, I’m super creative. I come from an art background. And I’m always like visually, orienting things and making sense of like pictures and images. And I was like, I’m not just a disrupter. I’m like really creative and how I do it because I am like playing with tools and using design.

And that’s me in a nutshell, like that term is my identity in my work. And that’s why I call myself a Creative Disruptor. I’m changing things for the good.

Marc Gutman 5:10
Yeah, so thank you. And I neglected when I introduced you to, I forgot that you are Dr. Sarabeth Berk. And then I think that’s relevant. That’s important. We’ll talk about that. Because you’re a researcher, and an academic. And a lot of what we’re talking about is rooted in that research and that background.

But you, you started that with saying, I didn’t know what to call myself, like, why did that even matter? What why was that coming up as a problem for you like what was happening in your life where not knowing what to call yourself was an issue?

Sarabeth Berk 5:42
Marc, I don’t know how many parties you’ve been to, or networking events. But ultimately, everyone says, Hey, what do you do? Hey, nice to meet you. What do you do? And this, what do you do? Question plagued me, it really became the bane of my existence. Because I got super anxious. I was in a space in my life, where I wasn’t really secure in what my career was and what I was doing for work. I was finding myself and going through, like a job search career transition process. So I didn’t have an answer to that question. Like something solid, where I was like, yeah, I’m Sarabeth. I’m the blah, blah, blah. So when I was struggling with how to answer that question, I finally realized I was having an identity crisis, I have like, literally didn’t know who I was.

And that, to me launched this whole series of events where I got really curious on Who am I like, I’m not what people are calling me. I’m not just a teacher or designer. Like, there’s something else here. And I really wanted to figure that out.

Marc Gutman 6:40
This idea and the word that you just used in that story about identity? And has that’s been something you’ve always been interested in, like when you were growing up, were you, you might not have used those words, you might not have framed it as identity. But Was that something that that always either perplexed, confused or interested you?

Sarabeth Berk 7:01
I, I would say no, like, this isn’t something that was on my mind for years and years, it’s something that I realized was the root problem. I was circling around, but I never had a name for it. Like when I was trying to figure out what I was doing after college and how to build my career. The advice I often got from people as well figure out what you’re passionate about, like, let’s let’s talk about what your strengths, let’s figure out, you know, what you love to do and make your work fit that. So it was always about the what do you do and why? And how are you going to do it? No one ever stopped and asked me about who are you like, Who do you think you are? Like, what do you call yourself? That’s a different question. So this notion of identity came to me much later, because I realized, we were talking about something we weren’t really talking about, like there’s another piece of the puzzle that was missing.

Marc Gutman 7:56
And so that’s interesting. Let’s talk about that. So when you were growing up, what was your identity? Like? What did you think? Your let me rephrase? Who were you at the time? And then where would you think you’re gonna end up doing? What were you hoping to do?

Sarabeth Berk 8:07
Yeah, I mean, I was this perfect student, I was the straight a girl. I loved academics and art, that was really what I was up to. And so my identity for you know, the first 20 some years of my life was student, you know, like, you are a student. That’s what people tell you. And then you graduate high school or college or wherever you finish your degree, and you lose that identity. And literally, that’s when I dropped into my first identity crisis. But people told me Oh, you’re just burned out? Or, oh, you know, you’re just going through like a quarterlife crisis or something. No one ever said, you are having this identity moment. And so that first transition of going from student to Well, what am I now Who am I now? And then trying to figure out like, okay, who’s gonna hire me? Like, I don’t even know how to take my degree and turn it into a job.

I was a ski instructor after I graduated. Because I literally was like, where do I start. And then I eventually went back to grad school got a degree in art and design, when it’s a classroom worked for some nonprofits, and boom, then I felt a little more secure. Because what we usually do in society is you define yourself by your job. So when you’re in a job, you have security around your identity, you’re like, Oh, I’m Joe, the marketing manager, and I’m Sally, the coder and like you just have this sense of who you are based on what you do, because we spend the majority of our lives in our jobs. And literally research says that when you lose a loved one, go through divorce or lose a job. Those are the three biggest moments where you lose a sense of yourself. And I until you go through that you don’t realize how powerful you associate yourself with the thing you’re doing. So that was a little bit of how I started noticing I was having an identity crisis is when I lost it.

Marc Gutman 9:55
Yeah. And what I heard there is that like this idea of our identity and our identity changing and even being between identities. It’s, it’s not something like that happens just once it doesn’t just happen, you know, between our 20, you know, matriculating from through college to the working world, it can happen a lot of different times. And I think that, you know, at least my self, you know, I think about, like, how I approach it. Like, I feel guilty about that, or I feel like I’m doing something wrong, or and you and I have talked about this, I feel like shame that like, I don’t know how to identify, identify myself. Did you experience that at all? While while you were going through that transition?

Sarabeth Berk 10:35
100%? Yes. I mean, there’s so much wrapped up, I felt like a failure, I thought, vulnerable, full of guilt, my self worth my self confidence. We’re just all in the pits. I really was just like, I felt lost and confused. It’s a dissociative moment is what like psychology would say, and you just feel disconnected because you don’t know. Like, like your roots anymore. Your your foundation got taken from you. And so it’s a process of rebuilding and reinventing and finding yourself again. And I think it’s part of growth. I think life, like you just mentioned, puts us through these tests at different times. It’s not just once, I’m actually going through my fourth identity crisis right now. Like I’ve mapped them, and I’m on four right now. So they keep coming.

Marc Gutman 11:24
Yeah. And the Pro, the the leading expert, I hybridity and identity crisis is going through an identity crisis, which is great. You know, it’s like, it’s this isn’t like exclusively to other people. And so it’s something that we all go through. And so were you originally from Colorado? No, I was born on the east coast and Pennsylvania. And my family wanted to be in the West. They love the mountains. So I moved out to Colorado when I was in elementary school. Right. And then I want to go back to that moment when you were a ski instructor. So you wanted to be a ski instructor. Like, tell me about that? Like, what what was that? Like?

Sarabeth Berk 12:01
You know, I saw I graduated from undergrad I was in Chicago at the time I came back home to be with my parents. Everything just fell off kilter. And I became a barista at a coffee shop. And that was like the fall season. And I had done some summer camp, teaching with like people that were ski instructors, because I grew up in the Roaring Fork Valley by Aspen and Snowmass. So I had some contacts in the ski industry. And sure enough, I called them up and said, what does it take to be a Scottish doctor and they said, Come on down, apply, we’re hiring. And I made it as a rookie that year. So it was really just kind of going with the flow of life. But it was really good for me, because I, as I mentioned, I was so academic, when your ski instructor, it’s really about safety of the kids First, we always said the order is safety, fun, and then learning. And a lot of it was just letting go of structure and homework and research and like deep thinking it was like, go just be like have a job. That’s so much about enjoying life and meeting people and going skiing with kids all day. It was great.

Marc Gutman 13:12
Yeah. And so this is so interesting to me. So you and I’ve met recently, and certainly, the identity I know about you is, you know, an expert on hybridity and this topic of being, you know, trying to find, you know, how do I talk about myself, but like, when I look at your bio, this is kind of funny to me, because you and I did an event together. And I was super impressed with how like, you’re cranking out these these beautiful design assets and all this stuff. I was like, Wow, that’s really good. This, I didn’t realize that and I feel silly, because you always refer to yourself as an academic and you talk a lot about academics and, and research. And that’s, that’s how I categorize you. That’s how I see you and your identity. But you have this crazy background where you went to the Art Institute of Chicago and risk D, the Rhode Island School of Design, like, talk to me a little bit about that because just even that like you, you started saying like I was really into academics, academics, but you’re also really you were like a very serious like art student like how, like, talk me through that a little bit.

Sarabeth Berk 14:18
Yeah, I mean, I was a wallflower in high school, I need to go back to that moment. But my my creative outlet was art class, I always needed to take art every semester and I fell in love with my high school art teacher just because she was such an inspiration and just opened my eyes to like mediums and ideas I never seen. Like she didn’t let me get into senior studio, which is like the pinnacle of the high school experience because that was only for the most talented students. So I had this sense that I actually wasn’t good enough. So I tried to like focus on something more academic in college but eventually noticed. I love graphic design. I love interior design. I love drawing In painting, and I actually loved book art, I thought I wanted to be a book artists like paper making and bookbinding. And I said, screw it. I had started at one university, and I transferred and went to art school because that was such a deep desire that kept calling me.

So I picked a major in my undergrad that was actually 50/50 art and critical thinking, like I took any studio major I wanted, I didn’t have to focus on one, screen printing, puppetry fashion design, letterpress printing, I was all over the map. And then I was going into these classes, one was called trans modalities. And the professor Joseph Greg Lee, he’s actually deaf. And so he would talk to us about, he could speak but he had a translator about things like, how do you know the taste of a cigar, or the taste of wine when it’s written down on these cards, and my brain was going crazy with like making sense of translating information from one modality to another. And yet I’m doing these art forms where I’m doing mixed media practice.

So my entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning I think that’s really who I am.

Marc Gutman 16:23
That’s great. And thank you so much for sharing that. And so, you know, you went to the arts to Chicago, you went to RisD like it, what point did you then start to think, Hey, I’m gonna like research this whole question of who am I and how do I talk about myself? Because I, you know, it’s one thing to be like, oh, I’ve got this problem. And I don’t like going to cocktail parties. And people say, what do you do? And I don’t, you know, and maybe you’d read some books. But you went a little further like, like, why? Like, why, like, what, how did that all transpire? And what drove you to really dive deep into the subject?

Sarabeth Berk 16:59
I think I started to feel like I was compartmentalizing myself. So I was in the classroom teaching art. And I got her crossroads, I knew I was ready to do more. I wanted to have leadership, I wanted to transform education, like I’m a person that wants to blow shit up and create new school systems. And like, you know, universities, k 12. None of it’s working. Let’s start over.

I’m an innovator that goes back to the disrupter too. And in order to do that, I needed people to see me as more than an art teacher like that was how people saw me serve if you teach art, and I was like I do. But I’m also actually on the side creating websites. And over here I’m making and selling art on Etsy. And, oh, I’m starting to learn about research because I was taking grad school on the side. And in order to leave the classroom, I started applying to jobs that weren’t teaching jobs. And in my cover letter, I noticed I started writing, I’m Sarabeth, and I’m an artist slash educator slash designer, I started using slashes. Because I needed people to see I have different sides to myself, because the teacher part was so strong and dominant. And by putting slashes, I was like, well, it’s not a comma. It’s not an and I’m like, I’m all of this mashed together. I don’t know how else to grammatically write it for people to see, like what I’m trying to explain.

So that was me, like, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the slash movement. But that’s like a thing people use. There’s also like the multi hyphen, people that put dashes. So I was already feeling that in myself, I just didn’t know, other people did this, too. And then I got to grad school, I decided to work on my doctorate full time, and I was working in an entrepreneurship creativity program on the side. And it was in my doctoral program where I really felt like, I just don’t know who I am anymore. Like, I’m not just a teacher. And yet, what am I?

And then I learned from honestly, the race, class and gender studies class, about intersectionality, that you actually are the sum of the intersection of all your different identities. And it was like, that’s interesting. Yeah, of course, I’m white, middle class woman, and blah, blah, blah, like all these identities, but what about my professional identity? Like I had this moment where I said, Can I ask that question? Just in the professional side of my life? Like, are there intersections between being an artist, designer, teacher, researcher, that became my research question. So because I was in a doctoral program where we’re learning to think and act this way, and we’re doing quantifiable research, I needed to pick a research topic. So it all kind of dived in that moment of like, my personal pain, the work I was learning to do, and then this curiosity that formed and then so as you as you got interested in this, like, what did you find? Yeah, it was like, where do we start with this? I couldn’t go around and ask people like, what are your intersections? Like, how do you see intersectionality Marc in your work because this was like two weird of a question that even i had never been asked before i didn’t know how to answer it.

so i started a case study of like five different individuals that i followed and observed and interviewed about their work because i thought am i just experiencing this or other people and how do i have a study around that and so i went and started talking to individuals about okay your title is blank you know this thing but what do you really do in that job and very quickly i started hearing people explain the different parts of themselves and then the theme that i started getting across all these interviews and observations was moments when people are just in their zone of genius you and i’ve talked about that before i love this this discussion and the zone of genius is a place where you’re in flow you’re at your best you’re most energized alive things are effortless and in those moments people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it how their parts their different identities were being activated if at the same time so this one teacher was like you know i’m being an empath by hearing the problems of my students and giving them guidance and counseling but i’m also sharing knowledge and i’m also bringing in creativity and i’m also this one also this and i was like oh my gosh that’s the intersection like is this really how it works that when we feel our best and our work we’re in the intersection of our of our work and i started knowing i was on to something like that was the beginning of the hunch so i kept checking it out testing it right like i was trying to understand do more people have this too and sure enough they do.

Marc Gutman 21:37
so this is really interesting to me and something that i don’t think we’ve really talked about so i didn’t realize that effectively and correct me because i’m going to i’m going to kind of make a statement here that hybridity or that the spirit of it is really looking for that intersection and when you’re at your best at work do i have that right so that that’s really what we’re talking about here?

Sarabeth Berk 21:59
Yeah so my focus that i described today currently is hybrid professional identity that as humans we are already hybrid we’re a combination of all kinds of identities social personal political everything but i just examine the vein of your professional life and what you do for your work and when people say i do marketing oh but i also do sales and i also do events oh and i’m good at design i’m good at this suddenly you start to hear all the elements all the parts of them and what i’ve learned is that there’s a hybrid space in the professional side of people’s life that they don’t know how to articulate the best way i heard this explained yesterday with someone i was talking to you she says it’s your special blend like when you have all those spices and you combine your spice drawer to make something your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you no one else has combined identities that way and that’s what makes you unique and strong in whatever you’re doing for work

Marc Gutman 23:03
a common question i get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? yes we help companies solve branding problems and the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call we’ll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email we’ll get you booked right away so whether you’re just getting started with a new business or whether you’ve done some work and need a refresh or whether you’re a brand that’s high performing and wants to stay there we can help after you book your brand clarity call you’ll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh will determine if your business has a branding problem and you’ll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies we’ll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level so what are you waiting for build the brand you’ve always dreamed of again we’ll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email now back to the show.

So when you— that’s really interesting to me like that you have all these special ingredients that become your your hybridity like like i get that like we want to activate what makes us special but like why is it so important that we’re focused on this like like why why does it matter?

Sarabeth Berk 24:41
totally yeah. i’m gonna reflect it back to you for a second and say Marc, when you tell people you do branding or your you have a brand agency Wildstory like don’t a lot of people do that like why do they come to you?

Marc Gutman 24:56
They do and you know i’m really this is really a question because i’ve struggled with this most people come to us because of our background in storytelling and things like that but i spent a lot of years talking about that like i’m a storyteller i you know this and that we’re storytelling agency and it wasn’t exactly leaning into the the idea of hybridity and what you do but what i did find is really confusing to a lot of people you know and they you know and so they didn’t get they didn’t get that and they meant different things to different people and so you know from a linguistic standpoint i’ve really gone back and forth on this topic and i’ve really thought about like do you use words that are already a schema that people understand to like have them understand what you do and then kind of talk about this idea of why or what makes us special or do you lead with that?

And so you know again i’d love to know like why so i guess what you’re saying and when you when you put it back on me is it matters because it helps you stand out and it helps you to differentiate but i mean have you experienced any of that yourself? Like where it becomes like a little bit like do you do you follow the norms and say i’m a marketer or do you say or you know do you say i’m a you know something else?

Sarabeth Berk 26:16
This is exactly what i’ve been looking at i’ve been doing it more on a personal like human level and i think you do it more for businesses and organizations i think the dilemma is pretty much the same essentially yes as humans our brains want to make sense of things we categorize things we label them so that we have that schema of understanding like this is a rose and that’s a dog that’s a horse but you know shakespeare said a rose by any other name would smell a sweet right like we just gave it that name to give it a name.

So essentially, the reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important like those special ingredients and you know why they fit together then you know your your uniqueness you know why you’re different than all the other roses and fish and dogs because we’re all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes like you do marketing and you do branding and i do research but then the question is what kind like what kind of branding do you really do and who do you do for and how are you different and what makes you unique?

So the hybridity is articulating in a clear way that isn’t confusing this is it. This is why we stand out and you can point to it now i still think the notion of hybridity is that it defies language like that is literally one of the things i found in the research when you’re in the intersection of multiple things so my primary identities are being an artist, researcher designer, and educator that i put into a venn diagram and then i go okay who am i at the middle of that venn diagram there is no one right or wrong way to name that it’s up to me but once i do i sort of give myself a new label and then the way that i help people understand sir about the Creative Disruptor because that’s my hybrid title is i say i work at the intersection of being an artist researcher designer and educator which then enables me to radically create innovation strategies and systems for organization and people. and that like three part

That’s my intro essentially is a give a hybrid title which is my unique label i break it down into the parts because that’s what’s familiar people know what those parts are but then i describe the relationship of how those parts fit together which is the meaning like why i do it how i’m being an artist educator designer what’s the point of that in the world so by giving an explanation of that degree it really actually changes the way people see me they’re like they hear my name they see my parts and then they see this is her definition of herself and that’s different than all the other artists and educators and researchers we’ve ever met it’s a unique combination i think businesses need that too right like what are the parts and services of what they do and why do they do those things together what what is the relationship between the things and then you start to find those hybrid spaces

Marc Gutman 29:23
absolutely and i love that explanation that definition thanks for clarifying that because that to me that makes a lot more sense that you know a bit of the process is to to do the internal workings for you you know it’s not necessarily external at first and then it’s about it’s about helping create that definition and that translation for the external world of like hey this is what my title means and so yeah that makes total sense i love it and and i think that’s great and so as you’re going through all this research and you were like aha like all right there’s this intersectionality like we don’t define language like, that’s all cool. But like, are you then like, like, what do you do with it? You’re like, Okay, I’ve got this thing. Like, like, now what?

Sarabeth Berk 30:10
It’s like you’re reading my mind.

Marc Gutman 30:11
Yeah, this great discovery like you’ve discovered something amazing! Now what?

Sarabeth Berk 30:17
I mean, at the time, I didn’t really know if I had discovered anything amazing to me. I thought it was like the best thing I’d ever found. But I didn’t know if anybody else cared, right? It’s sort of when you invent something, and then you’re like, but now what? So essentially, that became my dissertation. So it became this huge document that, you know, maybe 100 people on the world have read. And then it went dormant. Because what was happening was, I was getting more comfortable with being a hybrid, like, I had to own it, and walk into it and live it right? you, you can talk about it, but then it’s another thing to be it. And I didn’t have the confidence yet.

I was like, people are gonna think I’m crazy. If I say I’m Sarabeth, I’m a hybrid. And they’d be like, What are you talking about? So it took me a few years, and I needed that time to socialize and do more observation with more people. Like, I started just networking for my own work, because I was doing innovation strategy with K 12 schools at the time, I’d have coffee meeting, and I was meeting people in the community. And I’d learned about them, and what do they do? And slowly but surely, again, and again, I was noticing people are more than their job titles, they have all these different parts. And they’re not good at identifying which parts are the most important to them, nor are they good at explaining how those parts fit together.

So I kept seeing the same issues and other people I met. And I would throw it out there and say, you know, have you ever thought you might be a hybrid? And people would be like, what, like, What are you talking about? And then I’ll explain a little, and then go, Wow, that’s that is me. That’s, that makes a lot of sense. So I was validating, it’s like any entrepreneur, when you have a new product, like do people want this, does it mean anything to them. And so after a couple of years of that I knew in my heart, I wanted to write a book someday about this. And then getting these stories and more, you know, understanding of how this looked in the world, it helps me find my voice. And it helped me start to see the shape of how do I need to explain this to the mainstream public because I wasn’t in the university land anymore. And so that’s what I did, I decided to write a book. And honestly, I didn’t have a vision.

After that, I was like, I’ll write the book, and then see what happens. And literally, I published the book came out April 2020. The title of the book is More Than My Title, the power of hybrid professionals, and a workforce of experts in generalists. And the fact that I’d use the term hybrid professional. At the same year, the world was going through a pandemic, and everything was becoming hybridize, work and learning and the events and like all sectors, it was really a moment of just serendipity that I was already thinking about this, and the world started talking about it. So that it’s led to a number of interesting conversations. Because Another thing I want to bring up, I didn’t know that you can tell me how much you know about it is category creation. Category creation, from what I’ve learned is when you invent a whole new type of product that the market didn’t know they need it. So they’re not searching for it yet, like athleisure. That’s my favorite example. like nobody knew they needed athletic apparel that could be worn outside and exercised in but now it’s everywhere.

Yeah. And so hybrid professionals, and hybrid professional identity is a new category of workers, and a new way of thinking about the workforce. And so people aren’t searching for this. So the adjacent ways people are still talking about it, is personal branding, and career development. And then the academics that identity research piece. So I’m living in a zone of joining conversations in those other circles, showing them and getting them to think about, don’t you mean, hybridity? Aren’t we talking about identity here? Like? How does that factor into your career development and the way you brand yourself like that, to me is now how I’m bringing this idea into the world. Yeah, and I think that like, even this idea of personal branding, I mean, for me, like it was kind of an icky word couple years ago, it’s like who? personal branding.

But it’s almost like now to be a modern professional, you have to brand yourself personally, whether you’re an entrepreneur, whether you’re an executive, I mean, you have this identity, to your point, outside of your title. And people are looking to that to be like, well, what else are you talking about? What else are you thinking about? How are you putting your own interesting perspective on the world? And so that that’s also just this other kind of thing that’s intersecting with this, this time that you’re in right now and why hybridity is so

Marc Gutman 35:00
So relevant and so cool. And so you wrote a book, like, what was that? Like? I mean, did you it’s not an easy process. And you’re in, you know, you’ve just written a huge dissertation, not just but you’ve written a huge dissertation. So you’ve already spent some time in the sort of the ooey, gooey middle of this topic. And then you decide to write a book. I mean, did you have doubts as you’re writing that book that anyone was even going to be interested or care about this topic?

Sarabeth Berk 35:29
Oh, my gosh, the journey to the book was really interesting. Because I, if you hadn’t noticed, I’m the high achiever overachiever. Like I set a goal for myself, and I go for it. And I literally just accomplish it. I don’t just talk about things I do. Um, and so I gave myself a year after finishing grad school, to take a break. And then I was like, I’m gonna start writing the book. And I didn’t know what I was doing. And every Sunday I was forcing myself to sit down and log hours. And it was painful.

Because what I didn’t see at the time, I just, I didn’t know it yet. Like, I didn’t know what I was trying to write and say, Yeah, I hadn’t found it. So after a few months of just putting myself through the ropes, I stopped and laid it down. I think I also got distracted by work projects. And my other goal at that point was, I need a book agent, right? Like, I need a literary agent to be a serious author. I’m not going to self publish. So I took a little bit of time trying to send proposals and get an agent and I got some bites. But I learned quickly, it’s about the size of your audience. They’re like, how many followers do you have? How big is your email list, your Instagram, all of that. And I didn’t have a presence yet. And they said, come back to us when you have x 1000. It was like 10 or 20,000, it was pretty high.

So I was feeling defeated. And I kept talking to more authors. How did you do it? What did you do, and it’s just a really crazy journey. It’s one of the most opaque industries on how you publish books. And everyone’s story was different. Essentially, you either self publish, or you get a giant house like Penguin Random House. And somewhere in the middle is independent publishing, which is actually called hybrid publishing. So long story short, I found a woman who is in the independent publishing world, she became a book coach for me.

By the time I found her, I had validated and had a lot more confidence, I’d done a TEDx. I gotten asked to do some big speaking. In those speaking engagements, I was talking about this idea to audiences that I had no touch points with right there were cold. So I was starting from scratch with them. And by the end, they were just blown away, like the comment I get the most is, my mind is blown right now. And to me, that meant Wow, this was a really impactful idea that I’m sharing, then. So the questions they started asking me things like, Well, how do you figure this out? How do I do this myself? What are the Venn diagrams? How do I look at the intersections that started giving me the fuel of these are the questions I need to write about in the book, this is what people want to know. And this is how they want to know it, I just need to find the best way to share it.

So suddenly, I had a lot more inspiration, I knew my audience, I had this book coach, the writing the book, honestly, Marc, I did it in four to five months, like I started around Thanksgiving of 2019. I have the manuscript, final draft by like February, because I was aiming to polish by April. So it was like, that’s what happened.

Marc Gutman 38:26
That’s a good experience and once you’re aligned, that it all happened. And so when you think about this topic, and you think about people who are struggling with this idea, are intrigued by this idea, or their minds are just they’re listening to this for the first time, and their minds are blown, as you say, what, like, what’s the first step they can take? Like? What’s the like? What’s something someone can do to start to explore this further?

Sarabeth Berk 38:51
Yeah, no, great question. Because I do have a whole process, right? Um, the first thing is really to start with where you are right now, current state, what do you call yourself? What do other people call you? What are your kids call you, your friends, like notice all these different ways you’re being labeled, and the names you’re using? Then you start to brainstorm a list of all those different identities. And it’s really important to know that identities and actions are different. So when you ask someone, what do you do, they start telling you actions like I do some marketing and branding, I help people I mentor, a coach on the side. Those are all actions.

So convert that back to an identity. Who are you when you do that thing? Just because people are doing marketing or helping with branding? Do they call themselves a marketer? Are they a brander? And sometimes it’s one to one they’re like, yes, of course, when I do marketing, I am a marketer. And other times are like, actually, when I’m doing this branding thing, I’m I’m more of an i via navigator, or I’m a wayfinder or I’m I’m crystallizing, I’m a catalyst.

So you realize there’s other identities you are that you’re not showing or talking about if that makes sense so it’s really the first step is taking an inventory and doing a really big brainstorm on all the identities you’re showing up with and that you’re using and then the next big step is to narrow down you go through and you see which identities i call them are your primary and which are your non primary or like really like your secondary tertiary and the biggest difference between primary and non primary is your primary ones are the ones you use most frequently like every day because they bring you joy you feel alive they’re the expertise you want to be known for.

For me it’s the artist researcher educator designer like that is my core foundation of course i’m still doing like graphic design and event planning and these other things but i don’t use those every day and that’s not my best identity so you look at your brainstorm list and then narrow it to your primary ones and you have to have at least two to be a hybrid right like two identities combined will make one intersection three identities is sort of the sweet spot i think three is what most people are usually in for is the upper limit if you have more than four primary identities you’ve got to keep narrowing because there’s just too many intersections so that is the beginning of this work the second part i call investigating the intersections that is where things get really hard like time and again that’s where people struggle because it is literally a space if that’s unconscious and you’ve never thought of who am i in my intersections like that’s a whole different conversation we need to have.

Marc Gutman 41:41
love it thank you i feel like that’s that’s so actionable and you know you talk about struggle i mean like what’s hard about it you know like what were what is hard for everyone to wrap their minds around like what don’t we know about this this whole hybridity thing?

Sarabeth Berk 41:59
Yeah well let me play with that with you for a second if i walked up to you and said hey Marc, tell me how you’re unique how are you unique in your work ready go like what would you say?

Marc Gutman 42:09
Well i would say there’s a whole list of things so i think that’d be my first challenge you know there’d be like it but then there’s also this thing i don’t like talking about myself you know and i don’t like in that way you know and saying these are the things and i don’t know if you encountered that a lot but like these are the things i’m good at like it’s it’s truly hard for me to to say that and i encounter a lot of people that also struggle with it but that’s me personally. i don’t know if that holds up in your experience as well.

Sarabeth Berk 42:38
i would just say like rule of thumb the majority of people if they were confronted and asked in this moment to explain how they’re unique and different in whatever they do they would either a kind of like draw a blank like be caught off guard i don’t know i need a moment b they would be unsure they’d be like i it’s hard to describe or like i know i am unique but like how do i put it into words or the the other one is just your uniqueness is it’s just it’s like the wrong way to approach this because like you need tools to see yourself and to be able to read oh i know what i was gonna say the third one is they get to general they’ll say something like i’m really good at problem solving like my superpower is asking really great questions and it’s like what does that even mean right?

Like these are really broad things like everyone says they’re good at problem solving i’ll be honest i hear that a lot so the trick that i use and this is another strategy i have it’s called your first best or only. and so instead of approaching it with where are you unique which is ultimately what we’re trying to suss out in finding your intersections and your hybridity.

If you look at yourself and go okay where have i been the first on something like the first project i did the first client i landed the first it started a new process it could be on a team or in a company or the best like you were the top in your group the top in a region and the only you were one of a kind no one else has even done this thing yet right pull out those stories try and get like one per category and that will start to reveal this is you in a moment of uniqueness so i was like the first to launch and lead this innovation ecosystem around early childhood wow okay so let me break that down what was i doing who was i in that moment to do that thing what identities were showing up when i was in that first moment if you so going into my research hat for a moment there’s a notion of triangulation what triangulation means is when you’re collecting data if you only have one data point you don’t know what that means, if it’s good or bad and if you have two data points then one might be good one might be bad so you don’t know which it is but if you have a third it’s the tiebreaker right it’s like okay two of them are good or two are bad so you know you’re leaning more this direction.

that’s how it goes, I think in learning about your hybridity. So if you can think of three stories that represent your first best or only, then you can start to say which identity showed up in story number one, which identities are number two, which are number three, and you start to look for identities that are consistent across these moments to figure out, Oh, those are the identities that are really true to me, like these are the ones I’m using the most. And they’re important.

And that is just one way to start to find your uniqueness. There’s a lot of tools and tricks I use in this work, because this is a very deeply reflective process. I did a crash course this weekend with individuals and one of the participants that if the best he said, Sarabeth, this work, is like feeling muscles you didn’t know you had after a really hard workout. Like I start asking people questions they have literally never been asked before. And that’s why their minds are blown. They’re like, Oh, my head hurts. And I have to give them a break. Like we can’t do the whole thing in a day or in an hour. It’s kind of broken into segments.

And this is why, I’m literally making you step out of yourself. Like it’s metacognition like watching what you’re doing, and who you are, when you’re doing it, to start to see patterns and start to truly notice what specifically you’re doing that other people don’t do, which then creates that recipe back to the ingredients of who you are in your hybridity.

Marc Gutman 46:28
I don’t think I’m supposed to ask you this. Because probably like, children, you’re not supposed to say your favorite hybrid titles. But could you share a couple of your favorites that you’ve either helped to bring out of people or they just have have come your way? Like, what are some of your favorite titles that we can leave the audience with?

Sarabeth Berk 46:51
Yeah, no, totally. It’s a great, great, great question. And I think examples are really important. So I’m so glad you asked. So yeah, it’s not a bad question. One gentleman I got to work with. He was describing himself as a project manager, essentially. And he was unhappy with with his work and just felt like not all the parts of him were being used. So we went through this journey and unpacked and by the end of it, he realized he was really the tension methodologist.

He was balancing energy and projects or resources, and he was managing tension, but he had a methodology to it. And he’s like, That is me the tension methodologist. Someone else I worked with, she is the methodical Weaver of wonder. She’s really good at pulling visions out and weaving them together. And she again, has a really special way she does it. this other guy, he’s the human hitmaker, someone else call themselves a serial adju agitator. He was merging two words education and agitator together. And another one is the spiritual sparkplug. Those are a few off the top my head.

Marc Gutman 47:57
I love it. I love it. Well, where can our listeners learn more about you and dive deeper on this topic? We’ll make sure to link to everything in the show notes. But why don’t you go ahead and let people know where they can learn more about how to how to like, kind of dive deeper on this topic.

Sarabeth Berk 48:12
Yeah, I would love that. So I’m on clubhouse a lot. So I hope to see you in rooms there if you are. But MoreThanMyTitle.com is my website, all kinds of goodies and freebies, a lot of tools, like the word list is up there and Venn diagrams. And then I’m on Instagram at @MoreThanMyTitle as well. And I just started doing some LinkedIn live so people can see me, I’m really talking to people about their stories of being hybrid. So I’m a little bit of everywhere, like you.

Marc Gutman 48:39
Awesome. And as we come to a close here, Sarabeth, I want you to think back to that, as you described it the the wallflower version of you in high school. And you know that that version of you that was told that you weren’t good enough to get into that art program. And, you know, if she were able to see you today, what do you think she’d say?

Sarabeth Berk 48:59
I mean, my first reaction is all like just really a lot of surprise and shock. Because this, this is something I would have never ever ever envisioned on myself. There’s no way. I don’t know where it came from still like, I think I’ve surprised myself a lot. Yeah, great question.

Marc Gutman 49:23
And that is Dr. Sarabeth Berk, Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title. I’ve often struggled with fitting in and how to describe myself. That, in Sarabeth’s words, there was no language for the intersections of my identities. Hearing Sarabeth’s insights and methodologies has allowed me to see myself in a different light, and I hope it’s helped you as well. I also loved your actionable teaching, especially the first best only exercise. I’ll be working on that one this weekend over a journal and some coffee. A big thank you to Dr. Sarabeth Berk and the More Than My Title team.

We will link to all things Sarabeth and More Than My Title in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Sarabeth come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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BGBS 061: Beau Haralson | ScaleThat | Find YOUR Success In Its Season

BGBS 061: Beau Haralson | ScaleThat | Find YOUR Success In Its Season

Beau Haralson has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small including Google, Traffic & Conversion, DigitalMarketer, OfficeMax, and many others.

Over the years he’s worked with celebrities such as Lebron James and Arnold Schwarzenneger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way. 

As the co-founder of ScaleThat, Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that ScaleThat Select works with. He regularly consults for brands and speaks surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture, and generating traffic and conversions predictably.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• Be patient and pursue things fully, but don’t pursue them all at once. You can have your definition of success in its own season.
• We think that our career and worldview have to be binary and put in a box, but there is so much we can do and learn in one lifetime. Get comfortable trying new things—you never know what you’ll find.
• Small brands may want to be big, but big brands want to be small. A small brand’s greatest advantage is that they’re nimble and able to create amazing relationships early on. Big brands study that!

Resources

Instagram: @beauharalson

Website: scalethat.com

Quotes

[31:40] I think success is iterative. I think that people think success is like, “Man, if I could just buy a Lamborghini one day…” That would be the marker of success for some people and that’s great. If that motivates you, fast cars are cool, I get it, go for it. But I think like your definition of success can change every six months if it needs to.

[38:17] I wanted to be a great husband and be a great dad. And if I had to be a “good businessman”, that was okay. I’d rather not be a great businessman and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially a bad dad because I run out of hours.

[44:15] A lot of people want success now and they define it in a certain way. But I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season.

Have a Brand Problem? We can help.

Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now.

• Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process
• Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh
• Determine if your business has a branding problem
• See examples of our work and get relevant case studies
• See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level

Book Your Brand Clarity Call Today

Podcast Transcript

Beau Haralson 0:02
And it all felt complicated at the time. But like, in hindsight, he was right, right, like life does have a propensity to get a little bit more complicated as you go on. I still encourage people that are that have that call to entrepreneurship, no matter the life stage, but but I’m glad I took the dive then. And you’re right. It was admittedly scary at that time. I think I remember the first time I got like a 15 $100 check from our first client. And I felt like it was like, This is crazy. Just like felt so real to me. So scary. And then I was like, well, like, would I get the check to, you know?

Just like it all gets real. Like, oh, yeah, there’s no departments for anything. There we go.

Marc Gutman 0:50
podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby got backstory. We were talking with Beau Harrelson, the co founder and brand strategist at Scale That and dedicated parent that the Harrelson family.

Before we get into the show, here’s a not so gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Today’s guest is Beau Haralson. Beau has over a decade of experience launching products and building brands both big and small, including Google traffic and conversion, digital marketer, Office Max and many others. Over the years, he’s worked with celebrities such as LeBron James and Arnold Schwarzenegger, and entrepreneurs that deserve to be celebrities, doubling over 15 businesses along the way.

Beau is the creative force behind all campaigns that Scale That works with and is regularly consulted surrounding his unique approach to marketing strategy, campaign architecture in generating traffic and conversions predictably. But what is really fascinating about Beau, is his decision to put family first and build a company in life that supports that. A little side note, if you would have asked nine year old Marc what name he wished his parents would have chosen for him. They would have been Beau, inspired by Beau and Luke Duke fame. But I always wanted to be a Beau. Let’s get back to today’s Beau. Beau Haralson talks about working on the now famous of yourself campaign with officemax what big brands really want, and how small brands can compete in this is his story.

I am here with Beau Haralson, the co founder and CEO of Scale That Beau, thanks for coming on. And let’s get right to it. We’re both digging out of snow and dealing with snow here in Colorado. So well, we’re running a little late. But I wanted to start off with real simple thought of a question of what is Scale That? that’s the name of your company. Tell me a little bit about Scale That.

Beau Haralson

Yeah, number one, thanks for having me. I’m really honored to be here. And Marc, it’s been great to I felt comfortable wearing hat today. Because I know you love a good hat. And so anyway, thanks for thanks for that. But the name Scale That ultimately came from, I’ve been doing agency work and help them grow brands for the better part of a decade plus, and fortune 500 brands and everything in between. and the number one thing I see folks get wrong is they just scale the wrong thing. And as long as I want, like, it’s not like we woke up that day and said, you know, let me just grow my business in the wrong way. We’re all well intentioned people. But one of the things I’m really passionate is helping people find the right thing to scale. It’s not a matter of if people want to scale, that’s usually not the conversation, it’s usually figuring out the right thing to grow. And the right way to grow a business and so, so getting a little bit cheeky with it, we’re like yeah, let’s call it Scale That.

Beau Haralson 4:24
because those those are the moments we look for and conversations with folks and help them grow their business and go, Hey, hey, that’s nothing skill that. So taking a bit of that excitement, and that’s how we ended up the name. Very cool, you know, and I think that we hear this word scale all the time, you know, scale this, scale that I want to scale. You want to scale, let’s all scale right. But I think that much like the genesis of your name, you know, it has different definitions. I think it means different things to different people. What’s it mean to you? Like, how do you define that? Yeah, it’s interesting. I think people

Definitely romanticize the concept of scale. I mean, you know, I think it’s definitely every entrepreneurs dream to find that that predictable path to revenue is words that I hear tossed around, there’s a great book of that title, written by his name escapes, I think, is Aaron

Rodgers, but one of the early guys at Salesforce and talks about this idea of predictable path to revenue, and everyone kind of caught on to that idea of like, Okay, if marketing can get predictable, if sales can get predictable, and we can scale, then like, that’s the that’s the golden ticket. And and to some extent, you know, marketing has gotten to be somewhat predictable. You can you can figure out your customer acquisition costs, and figure out some of the customer journey. But there’s, there’s part of this lightning and bottle that’s just elusive. And I think, to answer your question, ideas, scale, to me means finding that as close as you can, finding that algebra equation, if you will, going, Okay, if we do this, and we do that, it’ll cost us x, and the output is y. And if we, if we do that consistently, then we’ll grow in scale. The challenges is those inputs change, marketing changes, people change, we’re kind of complicated ourselves.

So it’s an ever-complex kind of system of variables. And then deep within that is the question of scale readiness, a lot of a lot of companies will get into it. And they’ll find that path to scale. And then, you know, they’ll break. we’ve, we’ve run a lot of folks out of inventory, we’ve broken some companies, and I think, like, part of our questionnaires we get to know companies is are you ready to scale. And you know, there’s assumptions within that. And often in fixing those things and taking a half step back, you’ll find more efficient ways to scale, you’ll

just get more exciting from there. But so I think, as much as I love to talk about scale, what I love to talk about is growth, readiness, and close proximity to that as well. Because that’s the thing, you can control some of those variables, you can’t kind of at the top of the funnel, but the things you can’t control is like if you were to say, sell 500 units or whatever you’re selling or fulfill, I have to fulfill five more contracts this this week. Would it break you? Are you ready? You know, so that type of stuff is stuff that it’s not as romantic as romanticized. But a lot of the good answers are found within those questions. Such a great answer. Thank you. And as I think about that, you know, I also consented a twinge or a twin, if you will, in your voice that suggests that you’re not necessarily you didn’t you were born and raised here in Colorado. And so as you were, as you were growing up, why don’t you take us a little bit back to where you were raised? And where you like, Did you think you’d ever be into this, this concept of scale and marketing and all this kind of stuff.

So I was born in Texas, pretty good West Texas, which everyone’s on particularly I’m talking about getting my oil changed, it comes right out. But most most of my accent, I think, is somewhat neutralized, but totally depends on who I’ve been talking to, particularly if I’ve talked to my mom that day, it comes right out, but or if you’re applying a lot of snowbank and a truck, right like that, that gets as centralized as well. That’s right. But um, but yeah, so I was born and if you’d read like, say, my high school yearbook, it would have said, like, hey, Bo, you’re going to be a great youth pastor someday, and or you’re going to be like, a park ranger someday, I’ve always been in the outdoors. I grew up in a home, where my folks were missionaries growing up. And so by the nature of that, by the time I was 13, I’ve been to I think, like, six different countries, all of them in very much Third World environments. traveled, the majority of the US just grew up. And really, I wouldn’t say like, first class traveling very much a lot of places with not a lot of water. Had a knife pulled on me had a gun pulled on me in those travels, like had had a lot of interesting, you know, perspectives. I think by the time I was like, 1314, and I didn’t realize how weird it was entirely compared notes for some some of my friends and was like, What do you guys do this summer? And they’re like, we’d like baseball on I’d be like, cool. I almost got shot.

Oh, that’s different. Yeah. So I think on the other side of, you know, of that, I think, as scary as some of those experiences were, I’m really, really grateful for some perspective that gave me on just kind of, I felt like I got a small undergrad degree and anthropology, by nature of just getting to travel and go to places where, you know, there wasn’t electricity, there wasn’t running water, you know, just makes you grateful for for every day, and I’m grateful for that experience as well. So pastor, youth pastor or Park

Marc Gutman 9:59
Ranger, you are neither right now. Like what happened? Like, like, we’re, like you saw in the yearbook and you came out, you know, you’re like, I’m gonna conquer the world as a youth pastor, or a park ranger, what happened? Oh, man, that’s a great question. I think along the way, I met a girl.

Beau Haralson 10:18
And, and I really, you know, like, there’s some of that that was really good for me to be honest, there’s some immaturity in the early on around this context of like, providing and protecting and figuring that out. And then using some skills. I saw a good movie called Amazing Grace along the way. And there’s a scene with William Wilberforce. And, and, and it’s pretty poignant for me, but he has an intervention from his friends, and they come together, and they say, Hey, we understand that you’re really, really excited about like, becoming a pastor in his scenario. And we understand that you’re really, really also excited about becoming a politician. And in his context, actually, changing the nature of the slave trade really being one of the early forefathers of that. And his friends hosted an intervention. And they basically say, Hey, we humbly suggest that you can do both, like, just just go do you, like go be you and pursue your interests, and you’re going to like, maybe touch some people along the way, and help them out. And you’re also going to, in his case, change public policy, where he can impact people on a different level, potentially, then he could have maybe from behind a pulpit. And so regardless of worldview, the thing that’s interesting to me about that is, I think that we think that our career, our worldview has to be this binary thing that we put in a box somewhere, and I had a literally I, my friends, I was interviewing with me my junior year of school, and they’re like, Hey, dude, I don’t know if you know this, but you’re good at other things, like you can actually help people out in the business world. You’re halfway decent as a strategist, like you can go do other things. And I said, well, worst case scenario, you try those things for a little while, and I’m not good at them. And I go back to what is, quote, more comfortable for me what I grew up around and with, and it doesn’t sound like a terrible way to go. And so I my friends, humbly suggested I do both. And I sat down and, and really reflected through that. And since then, I’ve been, you know, doing this thing called business and

recognize as being halfway decent along the way. So I haven’t stopped yet. So we’ll see if one day I’ll just retire into being a park ranger, though that’s still the goal. So how did your parents feel about not carrying on the the line of work, and I imagine they probably had a lot of hopes and dreams for you, as you were thinking about being a youth pastor, or growing into the kind of a similar similar areas, then, you know, I think, I think, overall, my dad is still a great mentor of mine. And I think overall, they’re wildly supportive. I mean, I think that if I had gone into nearly anything, they would have been pretty excited about it for me, so that I never felt any undue pressure from them. Let’s be honest, and they’ve been part of the journey. They geek out on it when I release new commercial or import a new project. And so I’m really grateful for the support.

Marc Gutman 13:05
And so like, how did you get into marketing? You know, that’s still like for your friends to say, hey, like, you’re kind of good at this stuff for you know, to get actually into marketing and start doing it. And, you know, what was that? Like? How’d you even get get involved in this space? You had a lot of choices. At that point. If someone says to you, hey, you’re good at business?

Beau Haralson 13:23
Yeah, no, it’s broad. I mean, I graduated degree in communications, and second, second, whatever. It’s called a minor in business from Texas a&m. And, and I remember I was walking to a career fair. I mean, it was just like, I was like, literally my last career fair, my senior year. And I’d already proposed to my girlfriend, then three years, we were in our one year engagement period. And, you know, I was like, Alright, I got to show up and make this thing happen. And I was knocking on doors and dial in and you know, trying to kick a kick, open whatever door I could, and I ran into someone, recruiter from officemax. I walked up in point blank said, Hey, listen, I’m not gonna. I’m not a geek on office supplies, like, but I’ve seen some iOS commercials and some of the stuff y’all do. And it’s interesting. And they wrote me in and before I knew it, I was on a plane to Chicago and met a guy named Bob sacker. And Bob was the guy that brought Michael graves into target. And Michael graves was one of the earlier designers there used to be this store called Kmart. And there’s kind of like these big three, there’s Kmart, Walmart, and target. Were kind of duking it out. And Bob Thacker bra designers in to target and brought design to the masses, ultimately through target. And, and I said, I don’t really candidly care about office supplies, but I want to learn from a guy like that. And so

at the time, we wanted to move to Colorado and had opportunities out here and I punted on all of them, and I said, Hey, we’re gonna go do this whole thing in Chicago, and give it a go. And so I went worked at officemax corporate headquarters, actually on the business side of things and then I reported in

Because it’s kind of a liaison from the business side to the marketing side, so is representing the voice of the business to the marketers and saying, hey, go and grow this accordingly. And I’d say we’re like marketing kind of hit me hook line and sinker was I got to be part of the elf yourself campaign. So I don’t know if you remember this campaign, but you got to like you pasted your face on a dancing elf when flash animations were saying and, and you share with friends. So Bob originated that campaign along with this team, and you got to be a part of that. And I was like, Okay, I yeah, this is it. This is the fun side of things. And then that was kind of that was it for me for marketing.

Marc Gutman 15:38
And then where did that job lead you to? So eventually, you know, you got interested in marketing. And, you know, you’re learning from one of the best at what point do you come to Colorado?

Beau Haralson 15:49
Yeah, so we decided that for three or four years, and honestly, it was in the mid to late 2008. So you can do the math, not a great year to be selling much of anything much less like just but like discretionary office supplies and things like that. And so things did compress a bit in the market. And so that was like my first run through a recession, which was, which was really healthy for me from a professional standpoint, to navigate that we got created an innovative and being a part of the business unit that sold store within a store within a store solutions. If you imagine like, at one point time, Best Buy didn’t have a designated Apple section or designated like Samsung section that was all like a new concept. And what we would do is take that similar concept and take it into say Kroger, or a Safeway and say, Hey, you guys are selling office supplies, can we just take over that run for you and do that, and so was wrapping up that was helping sell that solution and and got used to kind of selling and enjoyed that part of it and negotiating big deals and be a part of that whole thing and just innovative business modeling. And we’re able to save a few jobs.

I was like that was that was cool. We were able to actually put some bread on the table for the company gets maker mental funds and a really challenging time. And roundabout. Then Office Depot went to announce they were in they were they were actually going to buy out Office Max. And even if my number would have been called I would have been moving to Boca Raton, Florida. And nothing against Boca Raton. I just I was like, Yeah, I think I think this is our chapter change. And so I’ve been building a network out here in Colorado for seven years. At that point time, I’d flown out here and I’d ski a day, I’d bike a day. And then I’d go shake hands and have coffee with people out here for seven years straight, regardless of the year. I always just did. That was how I did spring break. And so called up some folks in the network out here and went to work for an agency out here for a little while. And so I got the bug for entrepreneurship.

Marc Gutman 17:46
Yeah, what was that agency out here?

Beau Haralson 17:48
So they’re actually up in long on St. avocet. So is a company that I’ve interned for and so I knew them a bit and, and really enjoyed that part of the digital was happening at the same time. And a good buddy of mine named Mike Worley was and I had kind of geeked out through mutual mentors, kind of guys that were under the tutelage of Seth Godin, and we’d meet up for, you know, meet up once a month, and just kind of riff on digital marketing, what was happening and believe it or not, like, pay per click, and Google and all that stuff was still just then happening. And we were like, hey, this thing’s happening at a fast pace. And he was like, Hey, you want to take the dive? Like, let’s just go start something on our own. And so we started an agency ran that for three or four, four years. Yep. And then that was my first foray into entrepreneurship. quickly after quickly ish after moving to Colorado.

Marc Gutman 18:40
Yeah. And so like, you know, I think like, because we remember things, it’s like, Mike’s like, hey, and let’s start a business. You’re like, Yeah, sure. But like, why did you really want to start your own business? Like, why do that? I mean, it’s, it’s not easy. You mentioned that you I’m assuming you, you know, you have a wife at this point. I don’t know if your family situation, but like, you know, you’re you got some responsibilities. So it’s not like, nothing’s happening, like, you know, why start your own business? Like, why go into business for yourself?

Beau Haralson 19:06
Yeah, I mean, coming from a organization of like, 35,000 folks, where there was like, an HR departments and, you know, like, some, you know, cogs to the wheel all moving with or without me showing up like, it was, it was an interesting thing to make that transition. And I had, you know, felt like felt complicated to me at that time. But I had a good friend and another mentor, guy named Aaron McHugh that dropped this now, like this little nugget on me, and he said, Hey, like, to be honest, though, like, life isn’t gonna get any more simple than it is right now. Like, I know you have a wife and obligations and all this type of stuff, but like, pretty soon you might have a dog, like a baby, girl family, bigger mortgage, like all the stuff he’s like, if there’s a time to be risk tolerant, and make a jump and if you feel like you have like a burning, you know, sensation in your heart to like, go do something and put your stamp on it.

Like, I got news for you, it’s probably in this, maybe in this decade, maybe even in this like two or three year gap that well, things are simple. And it all felt complicated at the time. But like, in hindsight, he was right, right, like life does have prevented you get a little bit more complicated as you go on. I still encourage people that are that have that call to entrepreneurship, no matter the life stage, but but I’m glad I took the dive then. And you’re right, it was admittedly scary at that time. I think I remember the first time I got like a $1500 check from our first client. And I felt like it was like, This is crazy. Just like felt so real to me. So scary. And then I was like, well, so like, would I get the check to you know?

Just like, it all gets real. Like, you’re like, Oh, yeah, there’s no departments for anything. There we go.

Marc Gutman 20:51
Gotta do it all, I’m the everything person. Yeah. And those words from Aaron McHugh Wow. resonates so much with me. And it’s just like, you just don’t realize that even when you think how complicated Your life is, it just never seems to get less complicated. It just kind of keeps getting more and more complicated. So great, great advice, and great insight. Great mentorship. That’s that’s really cool. So that businesses that when I met you and Mike the first time, like when you were in that business?

Beau Haralson 21:17
That is, yeah. up at Cloud camp, we had a I’ve been friends with people Argus for a long time we met at one of Pete’s events. But yeah, that was I think that was year two year three ish for us. And decline. But yes, that’s when we crossed paths.

Marc Gutman 21:33
Yeah. And it was my impression at that time that that business was really strongly weighted towards digital marketing funnel building, working with other partners like digital marketer, can you can you tell us a little bit about that business? And did it? Did I have that right? I’m gonna make sure I read return on that a little.

Beau Haralson 21:50
Yeah, you’re 100%. Right. So we, I would say we were heavily influenced by HubSpot and some of their methodologies in terms of like, there’s a big content marketing push at that time, which is great, and still is a valid marketing strategy. But we paired that with paid media, and that was kind of like the perfect Venn diagram of going, Okay, that’s great that you can create content, but how do you amplify it? And then what’s the creative behind it? And so that was, I think, what that linchpin between, I had a house rule, which is if you’re going to spend, you know, $1,000, creating content, then you probably should, at least from one to one ratio spent $1,000, sending that content out, right, proliferate, like actually, like sharing that content, through paid ads, or whatever. And it’s not a perfect role. But it ended up being a good rule.

Because a lot of folks that were just in the content marketing game, at that point in time, didn’t fully understand the power of paid ads, and advertising and amplifying that content. And so we, I think we quickly moved up in the rank amongst our peers in terms of like understanding and how to create an amplify a funnel, also under the tutelage of you mentioned Digital Marketer under the tutelage of Ryan deiss. And, and Richard Lindner and the crew there, so we kind of met up with them that stream throughout that and drank a ton of the digital marketer Kool Aid. And I’m glad I did it was it’s been impactful for me and my career, went on have an opportunity to support them from the paid ads side of things actually run their ads for them in a later chapter, and really form a long, long term relationship with those guys.

Marc Gutman 23:23
Yeah. And so you know, we’ll fast forward a little bit. I know that you had tremendous success at this company, which was called Clymb Right? Is that the way it’s spelled?

Beau Haralson 23:33
Correct. Yeah, yeah.

Marc Gutman 23:33
Yeah. Just really had a Yeah, the y threw me off. Right. And in your partner, you and Mike, I think Mike went off to do something else. You guys guys separated, but on good terms, and he went off to do something else. And you continue to, to grow the business? And then and then you sell the business? What happened there?

Beau Haralson 23:52
Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. So at the end of year four, we had an opportunity, unsolicited, actually, we had three opportunities coming on the business at the same time. And and just people saying, Hey, we love what you guys are doing. And we want to we want to buy it, we want to acquire it, we want to partner whatever. And we weren’t hunting or shopping for any of this at the time, I’d read a book by john warrillow called Built to Sell early on which I highly recommended if you’re creating anything, and you did, like, if you’re a creative a bit like me, it’ll drag you into systems thinking, which is great. And, and so I’d read that book, but kind of like, tucked it away, and also had to pull that book back out, you know, what do we do? And so Mike and I looked at each other, we had one of the opportunities was from a company down in Texas, and I love Texas, born in Texas, but I just wasn’t in a hurry to make it transition back there. I’d worked pretty hard to get here in the state of Colorado and raise a family out here. And and so that was the that was the small minute detail that kind of introduced this idea of like, Okay, well, like we graduated our college and entrepreneurship we’ve been we’ve been doing this for four years, like cool. It’s our senior year.

So, so or excuse me, Mike and I had that conversation and like you said part of amicably and he ended up your work work with that company down in Texas for a little while. And that was great. And I took over complete ownership of climb, and ran it for a good another six to nine months, something to that effect, and one of those other suitors if you will continue to pursue me in that in that gap of time. And, and that was a local creative agency out here in Boulder called human and human ultimately acquired climb, I think six to nine months past that, that four year mark, where Mike and I separated. And it was, again, I got in, I think I’d had a dress rehearsal through of like, what the whole acquisition could look like, and, and got a taste of what the main act could look like. And, and really could see acceleration through through acquisition as part of my journey at the time. And I’m really glad that I stepped through that door. Yeah, and got through those conversations and had an exit. And, and, you know, I think it’s not as common in the service industry. But I could write a, at least two or three chapters of a book on like, what I learned going through it. And, and I’m really glad I did, and was able to, you know, go through that process and provide for my family and get some level of, you know, like an exclamation point on, you know, four years of 60 and 80, and sometimes 100 hour weeks of just kind of pushing and working hard.

Marc Gutman 26:35
This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn’t a logo, or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstorm.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

Yeah, you said you learned a ton. If you could share one thing that you learned out of out of that experience? What would it be? Or what do you share most often with people?

Beau Haralson 27:45
Yeah, um, I mean, there’s the really tactical stuff of like legal setups, and all those types of things, which I think you can you can google and find out and happy to do that. But more like a philosophical level, I think.

The the way I learned this lesson was by nature of the birth of our first kiddo, so he Eli was born about two years into a four year stint, if you will, as an entrepreneur, and he was born two months early. And so we spent six weeks in the hospital with him. And it was a really intense six weeks, right, like, you know, I could answer emails, sometime at 10 o’clock at night. And it was, you know, we literally lived in the hospital with them. And it was really, really humbling, because I came out of that experience and thought, Man, I built this business for it to survive with me being in the room 60% of the time. And I can’t be in the room 60% of the time, like, even if I want to, like there’s life circumstances that come up. And so I sat down, and I wrote out all the things that I did on a week to week basis. And I literally just was like, Okay, what is that I can I delegate operationalize form, put a process around. And one of that’s like the top 20%, that like, absolutely requires the, the me being in the room moment. And I cut out about 40% of what I did. And I operationalized it as best I could with Mike coming out of the hospital. And if I hadn’t done that, I don’t think we would ever accident to be honest. Because like, it just would have been a talent acquisition, and not like a company acquisition. And by nature building those processes. And they weren’t perfect to begin with, but they got better and better. And we got better and better. We actually had something that was acquirable that people were interested in. And I think I had to lower some pride, right. I like to I like to be the Don Draper. I like to come in with creative ideas. I like to be that guy. And I think I have a knack for it. But but if that’s the 20% and like, what’s the other 80% that that is necessary, but not, you know, maybe a necessary evil is big. You know

Like to that actually takes away from those creative moments or takes away from those impactful moments? And how can we, you know, so anyway, I could wax and wane on about that for a long time. But I think I’d encourage you, wherever you’re at. No matter what business stage, I read a book called essentialism. Man, scrag McEwen. There it is, if you read the first chapter, it’s great. But it just talks about the idea of writing yourself out of the job out of a job, and doing only the stuff that you’re the best at, and delegating the best as the rest as best you can. So even if you’re ever going to axe it or not, it’s good practice. It’s a good thing to get used to. And a good, good, good audit. And I’m glad that by nature of circumstance, I had to go through that audit the hard way to do it the easy way. don’t end up in the hospital.

Marc Gutman 30:54
Yeah, and thanks for sharing all that. I want to make sure we get to probably one of the more pivotal moments of your life in your career. And so you’ve, you’ve exited, you’ve been acquired by human at least from the outside, I’m you know, and I followed it. I was watching, I was like, How awesome is that? Right? Like you then like it elevated into some pretty sweet clients and opportunities and big name clients that I’ll let you talk about if you want, but I’m looking at it. Like how cool is a strategist and a brand builder and a marketer? What an amazing opportunity exited into a really cool hit Colorado ad agency and brand building agency. But then, you know, life didn’t get any less complicated for you did it?

Beau Haralson 31:38
Sure. No. And I think like success is iterative. I think that people think that success is this like, man, if I could just like buy a Lamborghini one day, that would be like the marker of success for some people like some and that’s great, man, if that motivates you, fast cars are cool, I get it, like, go for it. But I think like your definition of success can change every six months if it needs to. So you know, I’ll start with kind of that, sign that human for, I think two years. And

I think week one, I found myself like on a plane up to like Nike headquarters and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, okay, here we go. And I’d work with some like, fortune 1000 brands call it but not like fortune 50 or not like fortune 100. And I was like, Okay, all right, here we go. And so I bought a new pair of shoes, which was a good idea. And you know, like, just like, you know, all sudden were but it was what was ironic about the whole thing is that the conversations weren’t that dissimilar of early stage startups. And I’ll leave you with the I’ll leave one concept one, one footnote of this whole experience is that the secret of what I think of working with big brands is that small brands want to be big. And big brands actually want to be small. And so like there’s this interesting, like, kind of triangulation between these two things I saw on getting to work with small and big. And actually, I think that’s pretty cool. But if you’re a small brand, listening, and if you you know, maybe you’re a challenger brand, or you’re just kind of like in that early stage of creating that momentum, your greatest advantage is the fact that you’re small. It’s that you’re nimble, that you can create these amazing relationships with your customers early on, and that’s going to that’s going to be what’s creates raving fans.

And the secret to the big guys, don’t tell you is that they actually are kind of like, jealous might be the wrong word. But they, they study you and that’s why you have these acquisitions of like Hormel and Justin’s nut butter or watch Dollar Shave Club and what they’ve done over the last five to 10 years, they were a challenger brand not too long ago. Harry’s fall we’re talking about shaving has taken over like four feet of space and target they started as a DTC brand. But you know, I think small isn’t a big, big, serious fall. Have fun with that one. But like I think that was the thing I learned is that I could take these small brands strategies, help them apply, apply them to bigger brands, and get them super excited about that. And here’s the the one thing that was ultra exciting about that is that we could take some of those bigger brand budgets and apply those smaller challenger strategies to them and create a bit of jet fuel behind that success. So first, long I had the opportunity to work with I mean, World Expo and Dubai

had an opportunity to inform a bit of the strategy behind the brand launched with LeBron James Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lindsey Vaughn, and Cindy Crawford, and got found myself in this really like interesting brand strategy role along with marketing in those hallways, and that was great. Here’s the deal. I was in those hallways for a long time. And that’s not a knock against the the brand specifically this agency specifically I have good friends across the agency environment and the hours are not normal hours.

And a lot of that’s just because a lot of folks and agencies care and they care about those brands, they’re gonna they’re gonna put in the hours to make sure that they show up. It is a competitive environment. There’s about 15,000 small to midsize agencies in the US, there’s probably about 100 200 Omnicom level, broader, bigger agencies, and every one of them that I’ve, you know, that I’ve had the opportunity to interact with,

you know, in the trenches are all working dang hard. And I’ve got an amazing amount of respect for that. But to tee up the second part of that conversation, which is the transition of like, how to my version of success, my professional journeys been marked by my kids in a good way. But we got news at the 20 week appointment for our second kiddo, that she was going to be born with Spina Bifida. And there’s a lot of different types of spina bifida, hers was on the spectrum of good to bad or like menial to like, not,

hers is more on the not great side of things. So doctors looked at us in the eye and said, hey, there’s 80% chance she’s going to be born with some some level of cognitive cognitive issues and her hydrocephalus, she likely won’t walk. And, you know, it’s going to be a tough journey. And they asked us, they’re like, do you want to go on this journey? I was like, Are you asking when I think you’re asking like, yeah,

we’re in like, without hesitation, my wife and I like we definitely cried at the diagnosis, we had our moment. and work through that. And so we’re working through that. But we’re, we’re in, right, and I’m kind of all in or all out type of guy. And and, and so let’s see here tweeted, like 15 weeks later, 15 to 16 weeks later, she was a little bit early. We’re on the roller coaster wife goes and labor. We just seen we just been in for an ultrasound that day. So I saw me in the womb, the day she was born. And and I actually asked the doctors like, hey, real talk. If Jenny goes and labor tonight, what do I do like burden at risk category, we live 45 minutes from children’s, which is where the baby like person needs to be born with all the help and support available. Or we’re like 20 or 30 minutes away from you. And she was like, didn’t push it the extra 15 minutes, you’ll avoid being on a helicopter and your daughter will avoid being on helicopter, like and being separated from mom. And I was like, Yeah, well, like that sounds great. So literally that night, Jenna went into labor. It’s like 20 degrees out.

If you live here in Colorado, you appreciate this. But there’s a 470. And it’s a toll road. Thankfully, and and so I pushed it 115 120 miles per hour on that thing and made that drive in like 2530 minutes. And and Jenna was I won’t get into specifics, but she but she was it was it was time that Amy was nearly born in the car. So Amy was born, had surgery on her spine within 24 hours and then hung out in the hospital for another nine days. And my life changed forever. And the best of ways. And, and with that my career needed to change a bit too. But I knew that at that moment, you know, from a priority standpoint, in order, I wanted to be a great husband, and be a great dad. And if I had to be, quote, good businessmen.

That was okay, I’d rather be like, I’d rather not be a great businessman, and a good husband and a good dad, or maybe potentially bad dad because I don’t run out of hours. And so I reprioritize completely. And I don’t regret a single bit of that. But I was working 80 hours a week at the time. And I just literally just started working 35 hours a week and hit my numbers and doing my things and it became apparent that you know, I needed to be in the trenches, we all need to be working on those light late night pitches together, etc. And I wasn’t gonna be that guy anymore. And and so I just gracefully accepted stage left. And that was that was kind of our departure. And I don’t regret a bit of that because I think a lot of people would say hey, like pursue the thing hustle like I love Gary Vee, I’ve had the opportunity to meet him and talk to him about work life balance, and, and he he actually is an inspiration for me in the context of I’ve asked him point blank, I said, hey, what would slow you down? And he said, If I had a medical need, or if there was something going on with my family that required me to be home, I said, Thank you, thank you. I didn’t need his validation. But hustle culture can, I think get too turned up to too high. And so I turned my volume down. And that’s been a good transition for me on the back end of that. So that’s a bit long winded. But that’s that’s been my my journey. We can kind of end on the current chapter, if you’d like but any questions on that part of the journey?

Marc Gutman 39:55
Yeah, no, I’d love to get into it. way deeper. We are running tight on time. I know that you have to To run along here. And so what I’d love for you to do is just let us know, you know, what’s next for for Beau and Scale That like, what are you looking forward to? What are you most excited about right now?

Beau Haralson 40:12
Yeah, um, so join forces with a good long term friend of mine, named Alex turned in about two years ago now. And we played to our strengths, right? So he’s really good at paid media. I’m pretty good at creative. I’ve had the opportunity to shoot shoot national commercials and Facebook ads and all the things. And we said, hey, what would what would success in this chapter look like he had access to the agency prior as well. And so we kind of, you know, met up classic thing got out of napkin, and we said, hey, let’s just take on a half dozen clients a year that have our cell phone number. And let’s take really good care of them and say no to anything above that. And so we’ve got five or six private clients, private in the context that I can’t share with you, I can share with you like one or two of their names. But I’m under NDA where I can’t for the others, and we spend, you know, three to $5 million plus on advertising a month for those guys and take really good care of them. And when they have creative needs, and when they have other stuff that’s coming up and business strategy stuff, we advise on those and take care folks as best we can. And so that’s been a privilege to step into that it’s right size, I get to be a dad, I get to be a therapy appointments, I get to be, you know, I’ve got to get my oldest to gym here in a minute. And that’s I mean, that, for me is my definition of success.

Ferrari or no Ferrari, I’m plenty happy with that. And we’re moving the needle for folks and taking good care of our clients. And it’s just been great. So I think there was like a, how can we help kind of nature of that, or what’s kind of what’s what’s within that. So the business models pretty simple. Take care of a half dozen folks, we’re moving in the consulting with whatever extra hours we have. So we’re taking a group of clients that, quite honestly wouldn’t be initial great fits for our direct service model. And we’re gonna do some on ongoing coaching for folks that just need high level support, but have people in house to help execute.

So we’ll be unveiling that in the next probably 30 or 45 days. And we’ve built out some software in the background that helps people buy ads more effectively and efficiently, and took parts of Alex’s brain and a bit of mine and had that all coated up. And so we’ll be selling that software. Again, it’s just about replicating what you can and, and then we’re kind of in a mindset that if we don’t share some of the success that we’ve been able to create for clients, it’s actually been I mean, this was with no ego, but I had a good friend that was like, hey, it’s kind of selfish not to share, you should start sharing how you help people. And that will help other people help other people. And I was like, Great, yeah, you’re right, you win. So we’re kind of pivoting to like, actually starting to share some of the stories that have, you know, typically been hidden in conference rooms and boardrooms of, you know, fortune 100 companies. And I’m excited to start sharing that a bit more and sharing how to how to make that impact.

Marc Gutman 43:14
Great, well make sure you’ve let us know how we can help you share that where our listeners can find access to add or get more information or enroll in that in the ability to receive those stories and Beau as we come to a close here. You know, I’d like you to think back to that that boy in high school who is way in the the idea of being a youth pastor or a park ranger, and what do you think he’d say, if he saw you today?

Beau Haralson 43:39
Hmm. He probably taught me to rest a bit more.

But I think I think he’d also say like, um, you know, everything in it season is probably a good way to summarize that is like, hey, like, that’s, that’s great young Bo, that you have this, these these, like, your heart is excited about these things. Because oriented, be it like playing outside, but like, I think I’ve come to this conclusion that like, everything has its own little season, like, you know, dumped on us this weekend. And people were like, do you go skiing? And I’m like, Nah, man, I was hanging out with a two year old, like, that’s fine. And I was happy to be.

So I think a lot of people want success now. And they define it in a certain way. But I think you can, you can do both. And I think you can be patient and have your definition of success in its own season. And I think to be patient and that and to be discerning in that and to readjust and calibrate for that is probably what I would say to the young buck sitting there with this yearbook open was just like, Hey, be patient man, and pursue things fully, but like Be patient and don’t pursue it all at once.

Marc Gutman 44:51
And that is Beau Haralson, co founder of Scale That I’ve been following Bo’s career over the years and in typical Beau fashion.

He was very humble and understated about all the brands he’s worked with, and his successes in the marketing space. Maybe we can get him back on the show for a round to brag session. There were so many nuggets in this one, but two that stood out to me. everyone finds their success in their own season. That is so true. And I think that if we just let that hang and resonate for a moment, you’ll feel how impactful that insight is. And the other big standout idea was that big brands really want to be like small brands, and small brands have all the opportunity is there adaptable and nimble. You hear that small brands go out there and kick some big brand but a big thank you to Beau Haralson and the Scale That team I love your order of priorities and it is inspiring to hear how our business lives can be prioritized if we only ask, can I delegate this, we will link to all things Beau Haralson and Scale That in the show notes. And if you know the guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Beau come from referrals from past guests and our listeners.

Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny.

BGBS 060: Tim Parr | CADDIS | Own Your Age

BGBS 060: Tim Parr | CADDIS | Own Your Age

Aging.

Most of us try our best to slow it down.

But can you blame us? How do we learn to embrace our age in a society that trains us to want to feel 15 years younger than we are?

Tim Parr’s company, CADDIS, is challenging those standards and redefining what it is to “age” in contemporary culture. CADDIS has a refreshing take on aging, rallying around the notion that it is absolutely right to be the age that you are, and beyond that, they demand that you own it.

Tim definitely knows what he’s doing, but don’t take it from us. Brands such as Patagonia, L.L. Bean, Filson, Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. He has also conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art, and the California College of Arts. Before CADDIS, it all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand, Swobo. We also can’t forget touring with Tim’s Bluegrass band throughout the Western US and how learning guitar was an essential influence for CADDIS’s messaging today.

This episode celebrates the irreverence of 80s Thrasher magazines and emphasizes selling the message more than the product (though this product speaks for itself! I mean, check out the top of these rims). You’ll learn lots about building a brand in this episode, but if you forget it all, make sure you remember this: The fun lies in changing people’s minds.

Quotes

[0:02] I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your passions, I think it’s a good way to get hurt.

[8:45] It felt punk rock. It was like, okay, we’re going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. That seems like fun. And we’ll create this house called Age and the reading glasses are the door prize. Join our club and here’s your badge, which became the glasses.

[12:19] The dusted over, unsexy categories? That’s where the gold lies.

[17:37] I attribute a lot of how I was wired to the early 80s, Thrasher magazine…I viewed that as communication. And it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent part that that didn’t really exist before that. It was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into that magazine.

[19:20] I remember going through old W magazines and Vogues and the rest of them when I was like 10 years old and just rapidly flipping through because I didn’t care about the content, I cared about some type of communication… At the time I just thought, what were the hidden easter eggs inside this medium, to where I can get knowledge of what’s happening?

[25:38] I don’t know if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or a semi-intended consequence. I have to just think it just boils down to: it’s just more fun. And then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it’s more profitable. Because there’s less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace.

[48:12] There’s no easy path. It doesn’t matter what it is or what gifts you have, they’re all hard.

Resources

Website: caddislife.com

Instagram: @caddis_life

LinkedIn: Tim Parr

Facebook: @caddislife

Music Farming Nonprofit: musicfarming.org

Podcast Transcript

Tim Parr 0:02
I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your your passions, I think it’s a good way to get hurt. So for some reason, and it goes back to those, as you recognize it does early 80s, Thrasher magazines and you know, for the for most of my life I’ve been stewing on what works and what doesn’t work when you’re talking to people through this particular medium.

Marc Gutman 0:37
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby Got Backstory, we’re talking about readers. That’s right. Those cheap glasses you buy at Walgreens the supermarket when you get older and can’t see so good. Well, not exactly those readers. We’re talking about cool rock and roll readers. Trust me, you’ll love it. And before we change your perception on what readers are and who they are for, here’s a gentle reminder.

If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Does anyone really listen to this and review us over at Apple podcasts and Spotify? Probably not. So let’s get on with the show.

Today’s guest is Tim Parr. Tim has both founded new companies as well as worked for some of the most respected brands in the lifestyle industries, brands such as Patagonia or being filson. Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. In his conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art in the California College of Arts. It all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand Swobo. And then, as Tim puts it, elevated the shoveling Yak manure with Yvon Chouinard, the Patagonia throwing some years as a touring bluegrass musician, and now he has founded CADDIS, the brand that will redefine what it is to age in contemporary culture.

CADDIS is a unique brand, because they’re making readers cool. They’re helping their community to own their age. And this topic is especially resonant with me, as I think about age. I have an ageing father. And that gets me thinking about my own age a lot lately. And the truth is, I’ve never felt the right age. When I was young, I wanted to be old. And as I get older, as we all do, I want to be younger. I think it’s about time that I hear Tim’s message and own my age. Maybe it’s a message you need to hear as well. Tim power has had quite a journey, always able to follow his passions and start businesses. I am fascinated by Tim’s outlook on brand and business and I know you will be too. And this is his story.

I am here with Tim Parr, the founder of CADDIS and Tim, let’s let’s get right into it. What is CADDIS?

Tim Parr 3:55
CADDIS is a lifestyle brand that is specifically going after 45 to 65 year olds, which is a market that hasn’t seen lifestyle marketing branding, go after them. And go after is the wrong term. I would say rally around is a better way to put it.

Marc Gutman 4:16
Yeah. And to clarify a bit CADDIS also, I mean, you specialize at least your flagship product and your I see you’re starting to branch out a bit but your flagship product, you’re the product you started with readers, which is a very interesting kind of product to start with. Because I think the perception of readers as Walmart and old people and a lot of things, we can talk about that. But what really, I think is cool about this brand and I’d love to talk about it is right away right up front, you kind of you’re not selling readers, you’re selling this idea of owning your age and it being okay to grow older. And I can tell you personally, that’s something that I struggle with. It’s something that I have a really hard time with. And I think about a lot. So this idea of age is this is this something That’s that’s consumed You or been on your mind is as you start to grow older?

Tim Parr 5:03
No, not at all. And in fact, it wasn’t even prior to us selling anything, I was in the process of raising money. And before we had this clarity on on what we were really doing, which was what you just described, we were in the reader market. So, I mean, as a as a concept, and we were just, you know, we were selling cooler, hipper, and for terrible words to use, but they cut to the chase, reading glasses, you know, with a lifestyle marketing angle. That was the entirety of, of what we were selling. And then it wasn’t until prior to that, we weren’t selling anything. Up until this point, we were I had, I had six pairs of glasses, and I was trying to raise a little bit of money to get this thing off the ground.

So I was in a meeting with someone in San Francisco, at a at a venture capital place, and the person is, you know, going to the gym stood the product, and everything was lining up perfectly. And on the back of our packaging, there’s this quote, about aging, and just to own it, and they go, well, what’s this, and I had literally just slapped it on there in the 11th hour, subconsciously, it seems like a good idea at the time to call people out about how they think about aging. But But we hadn’t really delve into it. I go well, I just kind of think that people should own age. And they told me like, you can’t do that. And everyone wants to believe that they’re 15 years younger that they are, and this won’t work, you can’t do that. And meeting was over at that point, because of our position, which wasn’t even a position at a time. It was it was some flipping copy that I wrote on the back and had it printed on the packaging.

And then by the time I walked from that desk down to the street, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like oh my god, like that’s what we’re doing. Like, we’re not in the reading glass market. Like there’s a whole much larger idea here. It was the first moment where I really found our why in our business, like why should we even matter? Like, why do we exist, and it feels just to cut different frames and put reading glass lenses in. It wasn’t enough. And then by the time I hit the street, it was I had it like that this is the business that we’re in, we’re in the business of owning age, just like Patagonia owns corporate stewardship, or, you know, Casper owns sleep or a way owns travel. Like we’re gonna own age. So that’s where it that’s basically where that’s where it came from.

Marc Gutman 7:58
Yeah. And it to this point, were you were you searching for that Why? Or like what was going on?

Tim Parr 8:03
Yeah, but I didn’t know it. Yes. It is on hindsight, because I wasn’t like I was in it, but I wasn’t fully bought into it. Like, okay, like this is a white space. Like the only product that’s on the market is $10 garbage from Walgreens or CVS. We know we can do the design, we know we can do the marketing. We know we don’t know. But we have a strong inclination that the market is there. We’re not the only ones that feel this way about the product and the experience of buying the product. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t enough and there hadn’t one foot in, and then after that meeting I had both feet in because at that point, it felt punk rock.

Like it was like, okay, we’re going we’re going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. Like that seems like fun. And we’ll we’ll create this house called age. And the reading glasses are the are the door prize? You know, it’s like, join our club. And here’s your here’s your here’s your badge, which became the glasses.

Marc Gutman 9:11
And so you said it wasn’t working? Like tangibly what wasn’t working for you? Like why? What was going on?

Tim Parr 9:17
I don’t, I didn’t, because I didn’t need to do it. And these things are hard. Let’s be honest, they’re really hard. Most of them don’t work. You know, it’s not my first one. It’s like my third or fourth one. So and it was like okay, it was just that So what, you know, okay, so what so so you found a niche to sell more reading glasses, and it wasn’t enough. And it again, remind you, I don’t have this type of foresight. This is all looking backwards and I can evaluate what was going through me after the fact and I didn’t have that that Big Picture, this is why we exist. We’re going to own age and we’re going to change how people feel about aging in an in this culture.

Marc Gutman 10:11
And so you’re walking out of that meeting, it hits you and and, you know, help me fill in the gaps if I’m if I’m not retelling the story. it hits you, it’s like a lightning bolt. It’s punk rock like, this is what we’re selling. Like, how did you know that that was the thing to hold on to now and that this was what you were going to the market, you were about to enter?

Tim Parr 10:33
Pattern recognition.

So it was the thing that when I got that response from that person, who is a venture capitalist, who you know, has a very conservative, you know, point of view about a lot of stuff. And if I could get that reaction out of somebody, I can get a different reaction out of a subculture. So if if that person was so against that idea, if something tells me inside of me, I could tap into a crew, that would be the Yang to that ying.

Marc Gutman 11:14
So who was the first person that you ran, and said, I got this and told this?

Tim Parr 11:19
I remember, dialing my phone, because I had that we there is after, after I started, I grabbed four or five co founders with me to do the heavy lifting in the early days. So I remember running down the street in San Francisco and dialing each one of them saying, Okay, this is what we’re doing now. And it was that it was a 50/50. I don’t know. And all right, awesome. Sounds great. So yeah, I remember vividly.

Marc Gutman 11:53
And so like why even readers? So you mentioned that this is, you know, you’ve had multiple experiences in starting businesses. We’ll talk a bit about your past. I mean, you’ve had some great brand building experience in education, like of all the things, you know, and that you could have, you could have done like what, why readers?

Tim Parr 12:11
That’s exactly it’s the, your reaction to it is exactly why you should do it. And so the dusted over unsexy categories. That’s where the gold lies. Not the cool sexy categories. does sound kind of redundant, but I knew that’s where the fun lies, is to change people’s minds about things. So one, it’s a product that people need. And it’s a it’s a, by definition, it is a medical device. So people need it. It’s not like we were making another pair of denim jeans, or you know, something that you’d have to justify, you know, picking yet another pair for your closet or something. So there is there was that aspect to it. When I needed him, and I couldn’t find anything that worked. So I wanted to create the ones that I wanted. And it just felt right, because everyone thought, you know, like, Who? Who cares about readers. And if you go back to my pass, like I had a stint in cycling, and it was the same thing. It was like we went up against a black lacquer short. So it was almost like it was doing it all over again. I had another foe to go against it, which was the crappy $10 only option at the moment.

Marc Gutman 13:42
Yeah, and the way that I’m imagining it, and filling in the gaps of your story is that like you’re at Walmart or something, and you’re standing there looking at readers, and you’re like, these things are messed up. And it’s weird, like I you know, like, I don’t have a lot of experience with readers. And so it’s also confusing, you know, like, when I first became aware of your company, I was like, do I need readers? You know, like, how do they work? And there’s like this magnification, there’s this kind of like this weird thing around them. They’re not, you know, I think I grew up where you you go to the optometrist, and you get glasses or whatever, you know, they tell you, you it’s not like really the self diagnostic thing.

And to your point, I think, to me, readers just seemed like this thing that you did, because maybe you couldn’t afford glasses or like like, like it was like a stopgap or something. But that that’s neither here nor there. Was this how it happened? Where you were you you mentioned, you needed readers, readers standing there in front of the display being like this thing. This is this is just messed up.

Tim Parr 14:36
Yeah. And I don’t wear glasses, normal eyewear until I need reading glasses. So the whole process of corrective eyewear, I had no clue. I didn’t know how things get fixed. So I was down in Malibu and I was killing time. So I walk into this optometry shop.

I’m like, I got this problem or I can’t see and like oh yeah, you reading glasses, pick a frame. And we’ll, you know, we’ll figure out what you need. And we’ll pop them in, we’ll send it to you in 10 days or so. All right, I guess that’s how it works. And I don’t know. But I started looking at the frames I want and there’s, you know, between 300-800. And then I had to wait like 10 days and long story short, I ended up getting nothing. And walking out of there just thinking something’s broken here. And I asked the guy in the story go like, Is it true? Like, either I’m spending $10 at Walgreens? Or I’m spending $400 here? And is that kind of it?

He goes, Oh, no, no, no. So he goes in the back of the store, pulls open a drawer, you know, it optometry store in Malibu, it’s just like, you know, like a beautiful merchandise thing. The readers were all crammed into a drawer in the back. And they’re like, purple and blue, and like cateye, and you know, they fold 800 different ways. And it goes, Well, you can choose from any of these. And, you know, those are like 40 bucks, or, like, really, like, That’s it, I’m going to put these things on my face. And that’s the spectrum of choice that I’m looking at. So it was like one of those classic situations where, you know, person needed thing thing didn’t exist, go make the thing that you want. So that’s, that’s basically how it all started, was from that moment, and then did some homework and you know, reading glasses 90% of people in this country will need them at some point over the age of 40.

Marc Gutman 16:39
That’s a great stat when you’re starting a business and looking for a target market.

Tim Parr 16:44
Yeah, 90, 90% of people over 40.

Marc Gutman 16:49
And that’s my that’s my case, you know, these are reading glasses. I don’t wear them all the time I wear I’m in front of the computer. And exactly to your point. I mean, I felt like I had two options was Walgreens, so the optometrist and end up going to the optometrist. And here I could have been doing things a lot different. And so Tim, what I get is this real sense, though, that, that you have this this quality about you that you look, and notice when things are broken, and where things don’t make sense. And so and I could gather that’s probably you can you can tell me if it’s untrue, but you know, looking at your past experience as well, that kind of holds true that you’re a serial entrepreneur. I mean, it was not always the case for you.

Like when you were a young, young kid, were you looking around the world and being like this, this is this isn’t working, or this is, this is what I want to do. Like, where were you like, as a kid, were you entrepreneur?

Tim Parr 17:37
No, but I think I attribute a lot of how I was wired to early 80s, Thrasher magazine.

Marc Gutman 17:48
Which I am a massive fan of, you probably aren’t a big fan of Baby got Backstory, but I talked about it a lot on the podcast, and it’s a whole reason I moved to California after I went to college, because I had fallen in love with the beautiful imagery of Venice Beach, only to realize that none of that was true. You know, it was Venice was it was it was a lot harder. And their kids, those kids who had really hard lives, but I thought it was awesome.

And so I’m a big fan, so I can’t wait to hear where you’re going with this.

Tim Parr 18:15
So I viewed that as communication. And it was a it was it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent, you know, part that that didn’t really exist. Before that. It was it was it was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into into that magazine. And I remember, I remember doing that. And with something like let’s say, I mean, back in the day, it was like action now or surfer magazine, just flipping through the pages as a teenager or even younger, and registering what was right or what was wrong, just from just from cues. And I think that had a much larger impact on me than just about anything in my life.

And I remember my mom used to collect a lot of fashion magazines and I would do the same through those I’m or going through old, old web magazines and Vogue and the rest of them now has like 10 years old or something and just rapidly flipping through because I didn’t care about the content and I cared about some type of communication and like I would just I wouldn’t know it until I saw it and then I would see it and at the time I could just kill I just thought like okay, well what’s what’s talking what’s cool, what can I what were the hidden hidden almost like easter eggs inside this inside this medium, to where I can I can get knowledge of of what’s out. happening. And I put most of how I am from those early days.

Marc Gutman 20:07
Do you have a sense of where that came from? And where your parents in the communication were they into That kind of stuff?

Tim Parr 20:13
No, it’s probably a lack of.

I mean, to this day, it’s probably why I started companies is so I can talk to people.

Marc Gutman 20:21
Yeah. And were you Where did you grow up? Was it Southern California, Northern. And so when you were growing up in Northern California, and you’re looking at these magazines, like, what did you think you wanted to do with your life? Like, were you your kind of plans at that point?

Tim Parr 20:37
I didn’t have any. It was it was to surf and skate. And that was my plans. So my whole existence in high school was surfing and skating. And then when I got to senior year, it was okay, how can I get to live on the beach? And to really do that was UCSB because you are living on the beach. So that’s where I ended up going to school so I could serve, you know, and it’s just it. It was trying to just find that critical path of the least that I had to do in order to achieve the lifestyle that I really wanted. So I went to UCSB so I could serve, you know, got out of there with a 2.0. And then, you know, just kind of started figuring stuff out after that. But it was it was really that drove everything.

Marc Gutman 21:24
Yeah, and were you interested in anything other than surfing at UCSB did you start to think like, hey, like, there might be something else out there? Was it all surf all the time?

Tim Parr 21:34
Yeah, it kind of was, you know, living in it after that and lived in a van and, and that was in riding mountain bikes. You know, mountain biking was just coming on the scene and the to complement each other really well. So now I can’t really say I thought past the next month.

Marc Gutman 21:54
So when would you say you got your first real job?

Tim Parr 21:57
I’m still working on it.

Marc Gutman 22:02
I like that. That’s you, you’ve mastered that. But it did look like that you had some experience at some other companies prior to starting your own?

Tim Parr 22:13
Yeah, I would say the first real job was the company that I started, which was called Swobo. In the in the cycling industry. And before that I was you know, racing bikes. And I was lifeguarding or something, you know, just to make ends meet. But yeah, the first job real job was simply one that I created.

Marc Gutman 22:34
And what’s the story behind that?

Tim Parr 22:37
It was early 90s, mid 90s. It was and the answer to the to what was happening in cycling. So you had at that point suspension fork had come to mountain bikes, which opened up the category immensely. And you had snowboarding’s snowboarders in the summertime now hopping on mountain bikes, because there were now fun because of suspension and, and became relevant to a much broader group of people rather than cyclist. So, when that started getting off the ground, the apparel world was still just black lycra shorts and jerseys from Europe, you know, tight like rich jerseys. So we were credited with kind of changing the look of, of mountain biking culture, in a way. And not unlike reading glasses. I mean, the first product that we had, we were we were, besides the traditional one or two, three vendors that had been doing it for last 100 years, we were the ones to bring back first bring back wool jerseys. So we brought back a traditional fabric that no one wanted anymore. And then we paired it with a with a bike messenger kind of punk culture. And we urbanized so cycling before that was pretty tight, a, you know, serious athletics, blah, blah, blah. And what we wanted to do was just take that and change it. So people fixated on the bicycle itself, and the lifestyle around a bicycle that one could have without needing to be an Uber athlete.

Marc Gutman 24:22
And then was that business plan the way you just articulated it? Was it that concrete and thought out at the time, or were you just like, Hey, I like cycling. I like mountain biking. Like, I want to do something cool. Like Like, where did it land on that spectrum? I mean, were you really saying like I could make this a disruptive business?

Tim Parr 24:40
We didn’t use that word back then because I don’t think it existed. Because it was early 90s. But yeah, I think there was that mentality because we just watched what snowboarding did to skiing, right? Which was massive, right? It turned to ski on its head. So we saw that there’s a similar thing you could do in the streets, specifically, and in urban centers with, with the bicycle and with cycling, like modern cycling. So, yeah, I think it was pretty conscious actually.

Marc Gutman 25:21
And so what is it about that idea that that punk rock counterculture idea that, you know, we’re gonna come into a category and disrupt it say, hey, like we’re the cool kids? Like, what is it about that for you that that’s appealing?

Tim Parr 25:38
I don’t know, if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or in semi intended consequence.

But what is it about that? I have to just think it just boils down to it’s just more fun to write. And, and then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it’s more profitable. Because there’s less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. So if you can, which makes your marketing cost lower, right. So if you’re not competing with it with similar messages, there’s less noise, therefore you can maximize whatever it is that you are saying. So I mean, that’s not anything that I was conscious of at the time. But in hindsight, if you’re to look at why would you do that, there’s economic reasons for doing it. And there’s reasons to do it. Because it’s, I just find it way more fun.

Marc Gutman 26:46
Then, as you were trading this new brand, it’s Swobo I have that right? Kind of like with? Yeah,

Tim Parr 26:51
yes. S W O B O

Marc Gutman 26:53
Yeah. Swobo? Like, were you getting resistance? Where people not happy with you, you know, that we’re the establishment in the category? Oh, yeah.

Tim Parr 27:04
Yeah, there are plenty people who are not happy with us. And that’s how you rally the people who are happy with you.

You know, but, uh, you know, it’s a fine line. And I think we had incredible respect for all the right things, and no respect for things that didn’t matter. So when if you were, so when we were do the trade show, I would have bank messenger from New York City, you know, let’s say 25 years old blue hairs, you know, piercings all over their face, holding up the same piece of clothing as like a 65 year old nostalgics skater or skater, cyclist, they could point to the same thing and go, that’s cool.

And I and that’s always been a goal of mine is is to make the product almost agnostic to the message, make the message be the product, and articulate that better than most. So, so so so that there is old school cyclists that really appreciated what we were doing, and respected the craft of the, of the merino wool and, and the heritage of it and bringing it back and caring about it. And then there is a kids in the streets that were stoked, because it wasn’t all, you know, super clean athletes that the sport was about.

Marc Gutman 28:33
Yeah. And you said, and I’ll paraphrase, because I probably won’t get it get it totally right. But it was this idea about make the message, you know, something bigger than the product and articulate it better than most. And that’s a pretty, like, advanced sort of idea. You know, I don’t think most people just enter the market and think think that way. Now, was that something that was intrinsic to you that that came natural to you? Or did you learn this idea that like, hey, you’re really selling something else, something bigger than the actual product? Was that was that something you actually learned or that just come naturally?

Tim Parr 29:10
It came naturally. I didn’t learn it anywhere. I think it’s just instincts

Marc Gutman 29:15
Some good instincts.

Tim Parr 29:16
Good. Thank you. It sounds like taking it. So you say you take a very true the most traditional piece of cycling apparel you could possibly make, which is the the wool jersey. And then when we first came out, we had a model, this woman with a short crop punky like purple hair. And like that picture was spread everywhere. Every media channel picked it up. I mean, it leads people to ask the question, What’s going on here? It’s not so straightforward. And that’s something that I always am shooting for, is the brand is always on a journey to keep people engaged on a level to where they Asking questions rather than a brand just pushing answers back out.

Marc Gutman 30:09
This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Oh, wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. Brand isn’t a logo or a tagline, or even your product or brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

And so as you’re as you’re building this brand, is your building slow, like, What’s going on there? I mean, did you know that? I mean it? Was it just a rocket ship from the beginning? Or were you?

Tim Parr 31:20
No it was a shit show! It was my first business.

Marc Gutman 31:29
What happens to what happened with that business were to ultimately go,

Tim Parr 31:32
I sold it to Santa Cruz bicycles.

Marc Gutman 31:35
it was it was not a good was that a good sale for you?

Tim Parr 31:38
No, no. No, but you know, it’s, it’s it’s live and learn. You know, I’ve been asked this a lot, you know, like, would you consider it a success? And what would you do different? And mainly people ask like, well, what would you do different. And I honestly wouldn’t do a single thing different.

I would have. I mean, it was pain, like to liquidate, you know the brand when you’re young and and to take that one right in the chops, dealing with some unsavory invest investors. But come the end of the day, like we had a mission to change the way people thought about the bicycle. And I think we we helped in that in some way, shape or form. So it was a success. We learned a lot. It sucked in many ways at towards the end. But at the same time. I just I know it sounds cliche, but I just when seriously wouldn’t change a single thing.

Marc Gutman 32:43
And so coming out of that experience you you liquidate did you go work for Santa Cruz or did

Tim Parr 32:47
no no’s actually, like that same month, I got a call from Patagonia CEO. They’re saying we have this surf business that’s fledgling and can you come and fix it.

Marc Gutman 32:59
And was Yvonne, Yvonne are the CEO at the time.

Tim Parr 33:03
He was not his name is Michael crook. And that’s who called me. And then Luckily, I did get to work with Avon because Avon was very passionate and wanted this thing to work, it was going to work. So he wanted to make sure that it was somewhat hands on so to this day, I consider myself incredibly lucky to have you know, driven up and down the California coast with him and go out to the ranch to Hollister ranch and just have long conversations with him about all kinds of stuff.

Marc Gutman 33:36
So I imagined that had to be an incredibly well maybe not like what you’re hoping for for someone to offer you a job if someone’s gonna offer you a job after your first business to get the call from Patagonia to come get involved in something you love and care so deeply about surfing. I had to be pretty awesome.

Tim Parr 33:53
It was great. It was great again lucky. So I was there a year year and a half and it was turned it around. It was successful. People were happy Yvonne was happy. And then from there started a brand consultancy.

Marc Gutman 34:09
So why not stay at Patagonia why why start a brand consultancy?

Tim Parr 34:15
Because we were living still up in up in Noe Valley, California, which was a plane flight away from Ventura. So I was literally flying down Monday mornings, and I’d leave the house about 4am to get to the airport for a six o’clock flight. I’d stay down to Ventura till Thursday night, and then fly home Thursday night and do it all over again Monday morning. And so I did that for a year. That was a big part why

Marc Gutman 34:46
I’m exhausted just listeningto you talk about it, I can only imagine. I get it and so you decide that you’re going to part ways and you you form a brand consultancy. Like how did that go? It was

Tim Parr 35:00
Again, I see I feel that was another gift. I mean, anytime people welcome you into their home like that. So that was fun. So I called it par Goldman and burn. And there was no Goldman and there was no burn. But sounds. Yeah, it worked up until I was I was in the boardroom of LL Bean. And I just delivered a project that I’d spent. God knows how long eight months maybe. Can’t remember. And it all went well. And I had my business card there picks it up. And the guy looks at he goes, Okay, so where’s Goldman and burn? I go, Oh, you know, Oscar Goldman from the $6 million, man. Yeah, I guess.

Well, I kind of wish that he was my partner, but he’s not really my partner. And then David Burns from the talking heads. I love that guy, too. So I wish he was my partner, but he’s not really my partner. Okay, I think it’s funny. They didn’t think it was funny.

Marc Gutman 35:58
They didn’t think it was funny? I mean, like, from from the, if you’re gonna hire a brand consultancy, it might as well be one that’s like, you know, having made a partner’s of their boyhood dreams, you know, and

Tim Parr 36:10
the logo looked really regal. You know, if the shield if you look really closely, there’s like a Shaka inside shield. So that was like the giveaway that maybe something was up.

Marc Gutman 36:23
Literally, you had a part with LLBean and as a customer, because

Tim Parr 36:26
oh, no, no, no, it was it was over it because I had delivered the goods. And I was done. But it was the only time that that name didn’t work. And, you know, I had great and fantastic clients like Kona mountain bikes. To this day, I’m still close friends with and Patagonia and a lot of outdoor industry or sports or surf related, talking about big, you know, big strategic thinking around brands. And I remember having one meeting where it was just painful, as in every consultant has, has these clients.

And I just remember walking out thinking I’m done. And I remember reading this quote, which I thought is so brilliant. And it never occurred to me, but the quote was in order to do something different, you can’t do things the same. Yeah. So if I don’t want to do this anymore, like I need to stop doing this. Like right now. I can just stop and I need to do something different. And that’s when I stopped consulting.

Marc Gutman 37:31
And it was it was it as cut and dry. Is that did you fire? You know, fire any existing clients?

Tim Parr 37:37
well, they were not? Oh, well, I was I was not I ran out a couple of clients. You know, I did tell him that I was kind of closing up shop. And yeah, and then that was that.

Marc Gutman 37:49
What was your personal life? Like at this time? Did you have a family did you have? Yeah. And so what was that conversation like?

Tim Parr 37:57
Well, it gets better because then I think a month after that, I decided that I was going to learn guitar and start a bluegrass band and tour the United States, the western United States. So my, my wife has a successful dance business in in Northern California. So we were able to I could work for the dance business, doing marketing related things while I was on the road playing music. So it all kind of worked out in a way. So I joined the family business for a while. And played music.

Marc Gutman 38:36
Yeah, how did that that musical career go?

Tim Parr 38:40
It was super fun. I mean, I didn’t really know how to do any of it. So I spent time learning how to learn, which was interesting. And a lot of this with the music was a catalyst for what we’re doing now with CADDIS because I had to learn I had to learn how to learn being at the time in my mid 40s, late 40s. And your brain is different.

So there’s a strategy to learning something difficult, like acoustic guitar, you know, flat picking bluegrass, and, and you don’t want to waste time when you’re that age. So I did a lot of reading on how to learn and then got a really good teacher. And I was practicing six, seven hours a day and to get up to speed. But a lot of that process is is context for your this whole aging platform of what is now CADDIS. This is actually before CADDIS was even created. So it’s all it all kind of leads to where we are today.

Marc Gutman 39:51
Yeah, and you mentioned that we we learn differently and their strategies for that. Like are you able to talk at like a high level like, what those are like?

Tim Parr 40:00
So, I mean, specifically for music, let’s just stick to a sentence. So it’s concrete. But I’m sure you can apply it to a lot of different things. You have to really pinpoint what you want to learn, break it up to a bunch of different pieces. Don’t spend any more than 15 to 20 minutes on, like, focus on it. And then go just like put it down and go do something else, like completely leave it and then go back and do it all over again. And you have to break everything down in small chunks of material and in time. And there’s a consistency to it.

Which makes your your learning curve, do this instead of this, which isn’t 100% true, because eventually you do this and you plateau. And then you kind of need to find these incremental gains. But in a nutshell, it’s and this is complete layman’s terms, but it’s break things into small chunks. Don’t spend, you know, hours and hours kind of dwelling on IT spend like because your mind will wander, like spend 15 2030 minutes in a real deep dive, and then chill out and go do something else. And then come back to it and deep dive again.

Marc Gutman 41:17
Well, thanks for sharing, that’s awesome. Like, I just assumed we kind of had a normal learning pattern throughout our lives, I didn’t realize that we, we learn differently as we as we grow older.

Tim Parr 41:27
Yeah, the brain, the brain changes. And one of the best things you can do for your brain as you age is learn music. Because it’s one of the few things if you think about it, you’re using audio, you’re hearing something, you’re thinking about something you’re acting, there’s a physical action to it. And then you have to, you know, recreate there’s the hand movement, his left hand, right, and it basically hits every lobe on your brain.

Marc Gutman 41:56
Well, you just gave me permission to tell my wife, I’m going to read new guitar for the 10th time in my career. I think I picked it up and set it down too many times. But I love that. And so after the the music career did is that when you started CADDIS?

Tim Parr 42:11
Yes. So it was actually during, you know, I thought I could do both. So I’m going to start this company. I’ll tour I can work out of the van, you know, with my laptop. All good. That’s a bad idea. Let the record show that that’s a bad idea.

Marc Gutman 42:34
You heard it here first.

Why?

Why do that you made the comment, I think earlier in our conversation that you probably really didn’t have to do this like this, you didn’t have to start another company. Sounds like that you had the ability to work for the family business and pursue your dream of playing bluegrass on the road. Like, isn’t that enough? Like why? Like, why start a company? You know, at this point in your life and what what you have going on?

Tim Parr 43:02
Yeah, it got to a point where I couldn’t not do it. Like it was it was irresponsible of me like to do it and not to do it. If I didn’t do it. Like it was like, Okay, my circle of friends are my contacts are the people to do this thing. If you don’t do this thing. Someone’s gonna do it. And it’s, it may not be as good. So you have to go do this thing now.

Marc Gutman 43:34
And were you starting to circulate this idea and get positive reinforcement? Or was this just bubbling up in the back of your own mind?

Tim Parr 43:40
No Yeah, I was getting I was getting a mixed bag. Some people just didn’t get it. And some people really got it. And it took a friend of mine. I just came back from playing. You know where it was it was we played the the the telluride Bluegrass Festival. And I remember coming as long as drive home and and I went to dinner a couple days later with a friend of mine. who at the time was, I believe he’s the CEO of Nixon watches. And he asked me like, and I’ve known him forever. And he goes, well, where are you at with this reading glass idea? He didn’t told me about it. Oh, yeah. Looking into this and I’m looking into that and, and he just he saw right through the bullshit. He goes, No goes you start that tomorrow.

Okay, so then I came home and told my wife what Scott told me and and I, what do you think she’s like, Well, what do you think? Oh, all right, let’s let’s do it. You know, because you got to have everyone on board because as we noted earlier, they’re hard and they take a toll on everybody. So kind of got the sign off on it. And away we went, but It was that feeling of, like, you can’t not do it. I was gonna say it’s just too late, like it got to be too late.

Marc Gutman 45:11
And so I love imagining like, you know, Scott just giving you the tough love. And

Tim Parr 45:15
Oh, he gave me that the talk, dropping,

Marc Gutman 45:18
Dropping truth bombs. And so like, what was the first thing you did after that? Like, how did you get started?

Tim Parr 45:24
So I knew I didn’t want it well. So I had I brought it up to a certain point. And I don’t even know what that point was at this juncture. But then I knew I didn’t want to do it alone. And I knew if I was going to do it, I wanted to do it with the best people that I’ve ever worked with. And so I made a couple of email calls, I think the first one was to Dustin Robertson, who was at bat country calm forever, who I’d known through my suavo days and ran by him. And he just sent me like this email back that says, Okay, let’s go. And that was that. And so him and then it kind of trickled to my partner at suavo, which was, you know, 20 years prior, if not longer, getting him on board. A friend, Enoch Harris, those were the three cores. And then those people, new people, and then it grew out to think five people total by tally watch it, but I wasn’t going to go it alone. I’ve done that before. And there’s no reason to do it. You need really good, experienced people to get something like this going.

Marc Gutman 46:46
Yeah. And that, that leads me I was gonna ask, like, as you’re assembling this team, this kind of a tribute band, so to speak of, of players like we actually what are you looking for? Like, what do you what are you thinking? You know, because obviously experience but you know, that’s, that’s pretty easy. What else are you looking for in these in these people that you’re bringing on board to help you achieve this goal?

Tim Parr 47:07
Personality types. So I know that these things are rollercoasters. So, you know, people that the shits gonna hit the fan, and, you know, it’s all gonna be okay. I mean, most of these people who I started with, I’ve known for over 25 years. So, you know, we’re gonna succeed together or fail together. And both were okay.

Marc Gutman 47:36
So now that you’ve built up catalysts, and it’s it’s got momentum, it’s turning into this brand that stands for more than than just readers. But like, what’s hard about it? Like, what don’t we know? Like, what’s hard about the reader business?

Tim Parr 47:50
Oh, you know, it’s not the reader business as hard as businesses that are hard. So, I mean, I wouldn’t really say that the reader business is hard, because they’re all hard, you know, it doesn’t matter. I don’t care what you’re doing. This is something like I’ve given talks at, at colleges or whatever, and you get a lot of questions, and there’s no easy path. It doesn’t matter what it is, or what gifts you have, like, they’re all hard, especially in I shouldn’t say especially, that’s biased, I’m biased to think that when you make stuff, like the amount of crap that can go wrong, on any given moment, you know, from shipments being bad to boot, you know, fabrics that bleed into, you know, and, and all kinds of, there’s just a myriad of things that can happen.

So, I mean, into right now, today, you know, the company is growing really fast. And we’re just, you know, we’re adding people at a fast rate. And, you know, the hardest thing is seeing it, it’s always been the same thing. And we are a remote business. So that’s part of the beauty. And the challenge is that we’ve always been a remote business. So So communication will always be a challenge. You know, how we move ideas around and get projects done. But I mean, in a nutshell, answer your question. I think they’re all just hard. And

Marc Gutman 49:23
So one of the things that I think is really cool and distinguishable about your brand is on the top of I don’t even know what you call the top of the frame here. I’m sure you have.

Tim Parr 49:31
I don’t know either.

Marc Gutman 49:33
Okay, there’s not like a fancy name. I was like, he’s gonna tell me it’s like,

Tim Parr 49:37
I’m not saying that there’s not a fancy name. I’m telling you. I don’t know what it is.

Marc Gutman 49:42
But you have things like regular and Goofy over the eyes, imprinted on the frame, I think Yeah, a port and starboard one. Where does that come from? Like, where the whose idea was that and why why do you that?

Tim Parr 49:55
Kind of why not? returns on these. So these are the Another Mr. cartoons. So there’s what he says is Canada and that he, which is left and right in Spanish. There’s port starboard Goofy, regular. It seemed like a good surface. Somehow.

Marc Gutman 50:16
Yeah, under utilized. No one else is doing it. It’s really, yeah, it’s really, really cool. I mean, it’s

Tim Parr 50:24
Maximize your assets.

Marc Gutman 50:28
And so you know, you just showed us the the Mr. cartoon, what’s your favorite frame? Is it the Mr. Cartoon? Or is there

Tim Parr 50:35
I don’t have one. And I always compare this. I listen to Terry Gross, interviewed Keith Richards. And she asked him what his favorite song was. And she just, he just ripped her head off, saying how, ah, Jerry, it’s like trying to pick a favorite child. You don’t do that then other than that, so I kind of feel the same way.

Marc Gutman 50:58
Yeah, well, I agree, kids. And I’ll tell you right now I have a favorite. It’s not always the same one. It changes from time to time, but at any given time, I do have a favorite one that says they don’t lie.

Tim Parr 51:11
Okay, you’re probably true. me close Miklos? I would say. And this is my favorite

Marc Gutman 51:18
Story about Keith Richards makes me think you know, I know that you work with a lot of like really cool influencers and ambassadors that are like aging athletes and surfers and musicians. But who have you seen where your product that you didn’t have a relationship with that just really like blew your mind? You’re like, I can’t believe the day that they’re wearing my stuff.

Tim Parr 51:42
Man. Lately, there’s been a few you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Julia Louis, Julianne Moore. Did girl. And I heard that Shepard Fairey has Pete Souza, the White House photographer. So they’re just I mean, it’s like Katie Couric? Yes, posting about them and doing okay. So like, I don’t run in those circles, obviously. So it’s, it’s cool when you see that and people have, there’s a lot of pride around the discovery.

And the people that take selfies, you know, and are posting and saying that, like, I support this, you know, and without any prompting from us, I think it’s fantastic. It means that the, the communication is leaving, and it’s coming back, that it’s been received. And to me that’s like, I don’t care if I die tomorrow, like when people do that with our brand. It’s, it’s the Holy Grail.

Marc Gutman 52:54
And so as you’re building this brand, as you’re spreading this message, what’s next for CADDIS? Where do you want this thing to go?

Tim Parr 53:00
What we’re gonna do is, is further develop this idea of owning age. So beyond reading glasses, and one of the first things we’re doing is we’re starting a newsletter that’s going to grow into something bigger, but that’s called humongous living. And then, from humongous living, we’ve just started a new nonprofit called music farming.org, which I’m super excited about, because the company from the get go, took 1% of gross revenue. And we and we gave it to music education programs across the United States.

That’s a soft spot for me personally, what was happening, we’re growing so fast that that bucket of cash grew to a size that I couldn’t manage. So the idea is, okay, let’s pull it out of CADDIS create a separate entity to which other brands can contribute it into and we actually grow this thing where we can start helping people doing the hard work on the, you know, in the trenches, getting instruments, paying teachers, whatever they need, so that we can make make music education, something important again in this country.

Marc Gutman 54:26
And that is Tim Parr, founder of CADDIS. As I reflect on our conversation, Tim said something to me that I can’t get out of my head. He said, that’s where the fun lies in changing people’s minds. And I couldn’t agree more. I thought Tim’s journey was full of gold nuggets about building a brand and building a business. But if you were to take one thing away from this conversation, it’s sell the message more than the product is a big thank you. In part and the cat is team. I love this mission you’re on to help people own their age. I could probably use a little of that secret sauce myself.

We will link to all things Tim Parr, CADDIS, and music farming, the nonprofit Tim discussed in the episode in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Tim, come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

BGBS 059: Chris Kirby | Ithaca Hummus | It's Simple.

BGBS 059: Chris Kirby | Ithaca Hummus | It’s Simple.

Ithaca Hummus. America’s fastest-growing hummus brand founded by Chris Kirby: CEO, trained professional chef, and mustache aficionado. Chris’s career identity began in the restaurant world before he gained the courage to declare that he had a different path to follow, and returned to school. It was a tough decision to make, but this pivot lead to Chris stumbling upon a certain, special chickpea dish that needed his help. Did Chris Kirby find hummus or did hummus find him? We may never find out. From here we learn about the birth of Ithaca Hummus, which shot from a farmer’s market stand to 7500 stores nationwide today using a small, yet big-hearted team of 8. We can’t wait for you to hear all about Chris’s journey to get here. Fair warning: After all that mouth-watering hummus talk, you may find yourself checking out ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy for your nearest retailer selling this delicious dish. We speak from personal experience.

Quotes

[17:27] It’s almost like admitting failure, you know? Kind of like, “Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don’t think that anymore.” And it’s not failure—it just feels like it in the moment.

[25:32] It seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact.

[29:43] I can’t remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full-fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was having something of my own for the first time and just being able to experience these little success points along the way.

[39:46] Our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we’ve got some proof points that we’re actually, really doing that. And I think that’s what gets us all excited on the team at Ithaca hummus is thinking about the success that we’ve been able to demonstrate on a mid-size scale, not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, “Well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now?”

Resources

LinkedIn: Chris Kirby

Website: ithacahummus.com

Where to buy: ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy

Podcast Transcript

Chris Kirby 0:02
We were at the farmers market but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday and now someone that I don’t even know like, picked that up and it’s in their refrigerator and they’re eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is and so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I’ve heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to energize.

Marc Gutman 0:44
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs alike big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking hummus. Yep, that delicious snack inside dish made of chickpeas. And before we get deep into hummus, trust me, you’re gonna love this one. A gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend. Maybe while eating hummus. It’s time we bring the world together over the common love of the Baby Got Back story podcast and hummus. Which brings me to today’s guest, Chris Kirby.

Chris is a trained professional chef, and the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, which is available in over 7500 stores nationwide. At the recording of this episode, back in 2013, Chris left his successful restaurant career as a chef to go back to college. And this is where it dawned on him. hummus needed his help. And he got to work perfecting a simple lemon garlic hummus recipe. and a month later he was selling it at the Ithaca farmers market on the weekends. And Chris’s story is one of the entrepreneurial dream of taking what you love and finding a way to make a living at it. As you’ll hear, I’m not sure if he found hummus or if hummus found him. But what Chris did find was a way to take something that already existed and make it better. And that’s what being an entrepreneur is all about. He made it so much better, that he and the team if the gothamist are now shipping approximately 30,000 containers of hummus per week. That’s a lot of hummus. But Chris Kirby didn’t always know the hummus was in his future. And this is his story.

I am here with Chris Kirby, the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, Chris, thank you for coming on the show. So appreciate it. And like let’s hop right into it. You know, I normally have a big dossier of questions for you. But as I was doing some pre show research I was on your website and most intriguing to me is your own bio on the website and a couple things that really stood out to me You say you’re a ping pong champion. I’d like to hear a little bit about that. Chef Pitbull lover, but more importantly, mustache. afficionado. Tell me a little bit about that. Like the word is becoming a mustache afficionado come from

Chris Kirby 4:02
Well, I luckily have my mustache on today. And you know, I wanted to be a little bit out there and embellish a little bit on the bio. But I’ve had a mustache since my son was born and went out to lunch with a friend. Like, right around the time my son was born had this mustache grown and he was like, You know what, I think you could be like one of those dads that just always has a mustache. And I had never thought about it that way and all of a sudden I just committed to it. Yeah, I’m really into it trimming with scissors. And you know, the whole nine yards is fun.

Marc Gutman 4:37
Hashtag mustache dad. I love that my father had a mustache I was like is like, like kind of his defining attribute was he always had a mustache. So that’s really, really great. And so let’s hop into it. You know, Chris, you’re the co founder of ethika hummus. We’re gonna talk a little bit or a lot a bit about hummus and that’s a baby got backstory first. We haven’t dove deep on chickpeas and hummus yet, so I’m excited to do that. But when you’re ready young boy, I mean, were you into hummus. Was that something that was even on your radar when you were? Let’s just say like eight, nine years old? No,

Chris Kirby 5:06
Not at all. I was really into food, and daytime TV cooking shows like Jacques papan. And Julia Child like, I would watch them daily. But Thomas didn’t enter my life until much later on.

Marc Gutman 5:22
And so tell me a little bit about those shows and what life was like for young Chris. I mean, most people today take for granted that we can just go to YouTube or go to a chef’s page or a channel and catch up on all these shows. But like a Julia Child show that guy there was like, PBS, I was like some weird fringe kind of stuff. So kind of take me back there a little bit and tell me about what your childhood was like. And what turned you on to cooking at such a young age?

Chris Kirby 5:45
Yeah, well, I had a great childhood, I was really fortunate to come from a loving, supportive family. Both my parents were great role models. My dad was the first one in his family to graduate college. And my mom’s like, the most selfless person that I know. But I come from a family of four kids, which isn’t huge, but for us, it was a lot. And my parents had to be somewhat selective with limited time and money. And that seemed difficult at times. But looking back, you know, I had everything that I needed to thrive and really learn the value of hard work from them. Why did I love cooking shows so much? That’s such a good question. And it gets to like the core. And maybe it’s a combination of like something so tangible, and like process. And also, I’m a visual learner. So I loved being able to watch and hear and just learn and get explanations behind. Like, why you tie a chicken this way? and etc. So it’s a good question. I don’t know, really, what about me really turned me on to that. But I know it stuck

Marc Gutman 6:50
Yeah, and so were either of your parents in the restaurant space, or in the cooking or anything like that? Did you get that from them? Or was this something that was unique to Chris and just your thing?

Chris Kirby 7:01
No, my mom was a good cook. I’m from Maryland. So there are some like food, rituals. They’re like blue crabs and things like that, that really showed me how good food can be when it’s prepared the right way with fresh ingredients. But neither one of my parents were in the food industry now.

Marc Gutman 7:19
And so at that point, were you. So you’re looking at cooking shows, you’re enthralled by them? Are you actually kind of getting the ingredients together and trying to attempt some of these things. I mean, I always remember those shows were so interesting, because it took me forever. Like I just had this disconnect I could never understand like how they always had like these perfect bowls of ingredients, always measured out. Like for some reason, I just didn’t understand that. They pre measure the ingredients, you know, like I was like, Wow, it’s like, they’ve always got these perfect, like amounts of ingredients that they’re just dumping into the recipe. And it was always just like really hard for me to I was like, that’s so complicated and cool. But were you taking these and were you actually cooking? Or were you just like, was this a little bit of escapism? Were you just kind of thinking, wow, someday maybe

Chris Kirby 7:59
I was experimenting horribly, like I think most people when they first get involved in cooking and excited about it, they enter the like, empty out the spice cabinet phase, like as the first one. And so I spent a long time there making things like, Hey, I made this try and people would be very polite and kind of choke things down now and again, but I just like tinkering around and then this was like a creative expression way to do that. Yeah, I was definitely practicing what I was inspired by watching on TV. I wouldn’t say I was following verbatim though.

Marc Gutman 8:37
Yeah, how serious were you? I mean, Was this something you were doing after school? and on weekends? It was it like something that was personal or private to Chris or Was this something that was starting to take over was this showing up at school was this showing up as a bit of a this is called a healthy obsession, for lack of a better word,

Chris Kirby 8:54
I guess when it started to become real for me was I got my first job when I was 14 washing dishes at the local restaurant. And I remember looking at the cooks on the line and just idolizing them. I was like man, look at how fast and organized and efficient and just working so hard and doing such a good job and they just look badass to me. And at that time, my dream was to go to the Naval Academy, being from Maryland that’s like a something that’s in front of you right there. But I had this discussion about idolizing these line cooks at work with a guidance counselor in high school and she was like you know what, you sound really passionate about this, maybe you should think about culinary school. And that was kind of the direction and push that I needed to like really be confident about a path at that age and I just kind of geared towards that.

Marc Gutman 9:48
That’s crazy like at a young age like if someone you know I’ve talked about this before, but if someone just gives you permission tells you like hey, like you can do this I can influence it can have and really be pivotal and you’re like oh I can like that’s Really, really cool. And so when you talk about these line cooks and the chefs being badass, I mean, is that what you were really into? Was it the technical aspect? Was it almost like you saw them as like these great technicians or even craftspeople or artists, however you want to define it? Or were you enthralled with what was on the other end of the plate? You know what having a great meal man, like, Where were you following? on that spectrum? Was it more about like, kind of that technical skill? Or was it more like, hey, like, food is this like, amazing thing that brings people together or whatever it might be, I don’t want to put the words in your mouth.

Chris Kirby 10:31
I think it was a little bit of both. I think at 14, I was more, I think intrigued by like the badass theory of it. And then as I developed into my own career and culinary school, I started to really appreciate the technical side and the processes and the ingredients and the importance and then ultimately, got into my career as a chef and really started to fall in love with my ability to influence people’s outlook on food and their diet. And I would get really motivated anytime someone said that they didn’t like an ingredient like beets or something and wanted to change that

Marc Gutman 11:11

Chip on your shoulder about beets or just to show people that they can be a good ingredient or something like that?

Chris Kirby 11:16
Anything. Yeah, any of the above like chicken breasts always dry? Like, okay, well, I will make one that that isn’t. And I think it was much about like having a little bit of an ego of like, trying to show that I can do something as it was about the ingredient, but healthy mix, like anything.

Marc Gutman 11:35
And so sounds like that you were getting into high school, you decide to go to culinary school. Any doubts there? I mean, were your parents totally cool with that? Did they have any reservations? Or like, what was going on there? Did they say maybe you should look at other things? Or were you just like, gung ho and plus? Sounds like you abandon your dream of Annapolis. And I don’t know how serious that was, like within your family or anything. But what’s going on there as far as culinary school and the general attitude of everyone around you?

Chris Kirby 12:01
Yeah, it was a big discussion at home. Because I was very serious about Annapolis, and the Naval Academy, I had an uncle who went to the Naval Academy, and I was really inspired by him early on. And I think my parents just felt like, Wow, what a drastic difference this would be. And how would that impact your life and his parents do? You know, they’re just trying to look around corners and want to see their kids make the best decisions? And they were definitely concerned about the lifestyle that would come with being a chef, in the worst case, you know, that’s where their mind went as normal, I guess, you know, is that going to be sustainable for the life that I may want to live one day, and ultimately, I ended up confronting all those things later in life, but they were totally concerned about it.

Marc Gutman 12:50
And as he went to culinary school, where’d you end up going to culinary school?

Chris Kirby 12:54
Johnson and Wales in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Marc Gutman 12:57
I don’t know much about culinary school. So was that something that you had set your sights on? Like, you’re like, Hey, this is like where I really want to go? And if so why?

Chris Kirby 13:03
I wouldn’t say so. It was like, I knew that. I wanted to move south, a little warmer. And so I think that was probably in all honesty, the biggest draw the CIA is in Hyde Park in upstate New York, which was like colder than Maryland. And Johnson and Wales had just built this brand new campus in Charlotte. And they’re also renowned culinary school. And I think that was ultimately what drove that decision, was it it was in North Carolina?

Marc Gutman 13:32
And did you have any sense like of what kind of food you were drawn to what kind of cuisine what you wanted to do? Or at that point? Was it all exploration?

Chris Kirby 13:40
It was very exploratory. I didn’t have like a passion for any one specific cuisine or culture. In fact, kind of the opposite. I think at that stage, what was fascinating to me, it was like, there’s a noodle in every single culture ever. There’s some kind of grain dish, and it’s just variation from one part of the planet to another based on abundance of other ingredients. And so I just wanted to learn more. I think from a cuisine perspective about how that all comes together and how everyone seemed to make it work.

Marc Gutman 14:14
Did anything develop at Connor school? Did you start to see a path or a light? Or how did that shape up for you?

Chris Kirby 14:20
I would say, Oh, really evolved at the beginning of culinary school. I also, I’ve always had a very entrepreneurial mindset. And so I would listen to some classmates talk about like wanting to work in fine dining, and it would make me think like, well, that’s kind of like, stupid, because that’s only 4% of the industry and really difficult to make money at and how is that going to actually work for you? Didn’t seem like very good odds. And so in coronary school, I was definitely more like, how do I make really great food for the masses, and kind of like, focus on that, that actually evolved, you know? When I got into restaurants, I did become really passionate about fine dining, French cuisine and just the classic, you know, European techniques and recipes.

Marc Gutman 15:10
And so when you left culinary school, it sounds like you had a bit of a worldview where you’re like, Look, I’m going to make food for the masses. I mean, what was the plan? What did you think you were gonna do? When you left culinary school,

Chris Kirby 15:22
I never really had ambition to be like a chef on TV, or I think I was what seemed most attainable and realistic. And the biggest goal that I could set for myself at the time was owning a restaurant group, like a bunch of restaurants with different concepts. And that didn’t last very long. But I think if I did have a clear thought, at that time period, that was probably it.

Marc Gutman 15:45
Done. So what happened, what changed your you know, we all come out of school and training we like with big vision and idealistic. And then I think the world shows us kind of how it’s going to react as well. And we got to make some changes. So what happened for you?

Chris Kirby 15:57
Well, I just kind of got burnt out on the lifestyle, and I was in it big time, just working like crazy. And alcohol fueled, and you know, that ended up kind of being something that I had to come to terms with later in life as well. And I can just feel it, this isn’t gonna lead where I think I ultimately want to go. And it just something inside of me just felt like, I’ve got to do something different and maybe take a different path. I don’t know what that is. But after about seven years, I felt like I needed to make a change.

Marc Gutman 16:31
That’s what that point like, where are we like, what restaurant? Are you working at? What’s your title? What’s your role? What’s going on for you?

Chris Kirby 16:38
So I went from working in Baltimore, where I grew up to Washington, DC, fine dining, French restaurant, then out to Las Vegas, then to Austin, Texas, which is where I ultimately stayed the longest. That’s where I made the decision. After about three or four years of living in Austin, I was the chef at a wine bar in downtown Austin called mulberry. And yeah, I was just ready to ready to move on.

Marc Gutman 17:04
That must have been hard. I mean, you know, you’ve spent a good chunk of your life at this point. As a chef, that’s your identity, you declared it that’s your training. I mean, how to be hard to make that decision was?

Chris Kirby 17:20
It was I mean, I think I knew that I needed to make it long before I actually mustered up the courage. It’s almost like admitting failure, you know, kind of like, Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don’t think that anymore. And it’s not failure, it feels like it in the moment. But it definitely took a lot for me to leave my life in Austin, and all my friends. And what I ended up doing was moving back to Baltimore and going back to community college for a year to figure things out, really, and then apply and think about the next step.

Marc Gutman 17:54
And what did you study and figure out?

Chris Kirby 17:56
I took some basic courses, basic business, accounting, finance, things that I could really tap into that entrepreneurial spirit that I knew I had. So I did a year at community college, and ended up applying to a handful of schools to finish my bachelor’s degree. And Community College was really just like, let’s be smart about this, like, let’s take the courses that I can transfer and like, into whatever the next school would be

Marc Gutman 18:28
Yeah, and where was that?

Chris Kirby 18:29
Shockingly, I ended up getting into the hotel school at Cornell, which sounds like very fancy Ivy League, and it is, but I was like, shocked when I got in. And I was out of place there, for sure. I was 26. And all my classmates were 18. And I’m convinced to this day that the way that I got in was my essay, you know, how you write the letter and everything and as part of the application and I told them exactly what I was going to do. I said, I’m going to come to Cornell, and I’m going to start a business as soon as I get there. And I’m going to use all the professors as consultants, and I’m going to take everything that I’m learning and apply it in real time to the business that I build. I don’t know what that’s gonna be I’ll figure it out when I get there. But yeah, I think that’s what sparked their interest.

Marc Gutman 19:22
Did you know when you went to Cornell, I mean that this business that you’re gonna start that you didn’t know what it was, but you knew what you wanted it to be? Did you know it was gonna be in the hospitality space? Because Cornell I mean, as you know, and but most of our listeners might not know, I mean, that’s one of the best, if not the best hospitality programs in the country. I mean, it’s renowned for that. And so thinking that were you like, hey, like, I’m gonna do something in this food slash hospitality space. Are you just not sure?

Chris Kirby 19:51
Yeah, I totally did. I wanted to figure something out that I can parlay like all the experience and knowledge of food that I had built. And definitely stay in that lane for my own business. But yeah, my girlfriend at the time, and now what I think I told her that maybe what I’ll do is I’ll go to Africa, and I’ll work at a McDonald’s and learn the like processes of how they make that work on such a huge scale, and then apply like just better food to that down the road. That was one of many, many ideas. And I’m shocked that she listened to that was like, Okay, yeah, it sounds good. It’s a little far fetched. But…

Marc Gutman 20:32
So did you work at McDonald’s?

Chris Kirby 20:34
No, I didn’t end up doing that. No, no, no, no, I didn’t, you know, the hotel school there as I knew it was right for me, because everything was tailored toward the hospitality industry. So I got it, you know, it wasn’t totally outside of my purview of what I understood. And so they say that instead of ball bearings, they talk about biscuits, and you know, and like economics and finance, which is true. So just tailored to what I already know.

Marc Gutman 21:01
So you show up at Cornell, you’re all fresh face, you have big dreams, you’re an old freshmen. What was the first business idea? was it? Was it like a hummus? Or was it something else

Chris Kirby 21:10
It was, I knew within a week of being an Ithaca, that this was a product that was missing in the local food economy and food scene. There’s a an amazing farmers market, the Ithaca farmers market, that it didn’t take very long, you know, I spent a weekend at the farmers market, and hit up greenstar Co Op, which is the local natural food store. And I was looking for what I could do locally that would be successful, but also on a national level, like, what’s a category or type of food that’s available in grocery stores that needs the most help from someone like me. And I just felt like that’s where I could add the most value. And hummus just happened to check both of those boxes.

Marc Gutman 21:59
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Why hummus? Like why did it Need help? Like what don’t we get? Because I go to the market and ton of hummus. There’s other competitors out there like what did you see?

Chris Kirby 23:10
So hummus is you know, I think most people would agree if you eat a lot of hummus that the best time is comes from like a local restaurant or a local producer. It’s made fresh and some of the nationally available stuff and brands like it’s just kind of a little bland, and not really all that exciting, certainly not as good as it can be when it’s fresh. And so I saw first of all the opportunity to be that local hummus in Ithaca. And on a longer view, the opportunity for someone like me to figure out how to replicate that quality on a national level through the commercialization process. How do we commercialize something that’s as high quality as a local product without totally ruining and destroying all the things that make that local product good in the first place?

Marc Gutman 24:00
And I’m so just intrigued and amazed by this because I mean hummus, like you probably know better than I have done our research on this. It’s been around for 1000s of years, right? Like This isn’t like, like hummus has been around for you know, much longer than just about everything. And we’ve had it and it’s so it’s not like also, I mean, this isn’t like the 60s and like the advent of like natural foods. I mean, I find it just so interesting that there was this opportunity. And so prior to all this, like were you sitting around, were you kind of like this, like hummus snob or hummus kind of sewer where you’re like thinking like, Oh, this isn’t good, or they, but it was purely looking at it more from a business perspective.

Chris Kirby 24:37
Yeah, it was trying to recognize an opportunity that I could take advantage of now and in the future. And that’s how I would describe for me at least when I say I haven’t this entrepreneurial mindset, it’s just looking at things and thinking like, I could do that better. You know, maybe there’s a way What if we change this or did this better did this different and you know, yeah, they’re brilliant. 1000s of ideas that spark out of that way of thinking, and this just happened to be one that was like, Man, this really clicks, I don’t need to reinvent Thomas, I just need to make really good, authentic commerce available to the mass market.

Marc Gutman 25:17
And as you went, and you told your girlfriend at the time, now your wife, or you told your professors, hey, I am going to be the hummus king of Africa, then I’m going to be the hummus king of the nation. Where did they say

Chris Kirby 25:30
Mixed reactions? You know, I mean, it seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact.

Marc Gutman 25:44
So maybe walk us through a little bit like what happened. So you’re at Cornell, and you’re going to use your professors as your unofficial board and your consultants and you have this idea for hummus, like, what happens? Do you just start blending in your kitchen? Like, how do you how to kind of get this thing going?

Chris Kirby 25:59
Yeah, so first of all, food safety is something that I was very well trained on as a chef and I had never produced a product made for resale. That plus like, how do I start a business? How do I form an LLC? Or now what do I is an S corp or a C Corp? Or what? So those two questions like forming the business and figuring out how to operate and make this product safely so that it could be distributed to people and they weren’t going to get sick? were the first two things that I tackled, and then it became about where am I going to make it and where am I going to sell it. And I was very lucky to find a summer camp in Ithaca that had a food safe kitchen and you know, everything that I needed, basically to get started. For $200 a month, I rented this place and would go and make test batches and eventually, like batches for sale at night. And I would take it to the farmers market on the weekend and sell it there.

Marc Gutman 27:00
And so prior to this, how would you rank your level of hummus chef or had you shut up any hummus prior to this? Or like, are you just kind of figuring this out at this point?

Chris Kirby 27:11
Yeah, so I had had some hummus training, you could say, throughout my voluntary career, I was really close with one of my friends in DC at the restaurant I told you about who was Lebanese and he would make on Sundays when it was his turn family meal. And hummus was always a big part of that. And what I loved about his hummus compared to like the stuff you could buy at the grocery store was the fresh lemony, like garlicky, it was just tasted fresh, very intense flavor wasn’t bland or boring at all. So yeah, I learned how to make comments from my buddy fi’s all. And that’s basically the recipe that I used when I started at the comments and still use today.

Marc Gutman 27:52
Yeah, in addition to it being fresh, like what makes a great hummus, like what’s everyone else getting wrong? And what’s it good doing right with what you can share? Obviously,

Chris Kirby 28:01
I can be totally open about what we do. I think I’ve got to be very careful because hummus is one of those like regionally funny things like Israeli hummus is very different than Lebanese hummus. Lebanese hummus is what we make it’s lemony, a lot more fresh lemon, less tahini, Israeli hummus has a lot more tahini in it, and it doesn’t really have the fresh zing like the product that we make. So to me, what makes it great is very fresh ingredients. From a package perspective. I think where it goes wrong for a lot of brands is they actually heat the product after it’s blended and everything is you know, mixed in. When you think about what that does to food when you heat it up fresh lemon juice or even garlic, for example, like it really changes the flavor profile. And for me, I think it’s just really important to capture that fresh, raw flavor of the ingredient.

Marc Gutman 28:54
Before I forget, what’s your favorite dipping apparatus into the hummus? What do you think’s the best Dipper?

Chris Kirby 29:01
Also not like historically culturally accepted? I wouldn’t say but I’m a big raw broccoli. I like raw broccoli and cauliflower. For my homies Personally,

Marc Gutman 29:12
I love that. So here we are. I imagine you’re at this summer camp, you’re renting out this kitchen you’re if you’ve got like hummus everywhere. You’re like trying to figure it out. What’s going on? Are you just like, and you’re going to school, by the way if I got this right, so like are you like, enthralled with this? Are you like just no one can take the wind out of your sails or any given point. Are you like, what did I get myself into? Like I’m putting a big bet on hummus right now. Like Like what was going on for you right there.

Chris Kirby 29:38
It’s funny, and I don’t know why I felt so strongly about it. But I can’t remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was like having something of my own for the first time. And just being able to experience like these little success points along the way, like, we were at the farmers market, but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday, and now someone that I don’t even know, like, pick that up, and it’s in their refrigerator. And they’re eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is. And so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I’ve heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to, to to energize me.

Marc Gutman 30:44
And so that’s all like, good and gets you going. But imagine like, you’re selling at some coffee shops and some natural grocers, your your local, you’re at the farmers market. At what point do you look at this thing and go like, it could be bigger than that, you know, this could actually be a business not like, a bit of a hobby, like when do you like really start to get the sense that maybe I’m onto something and I have to think to that, at some point, you’re starting to gain maybe a little bit of tension from your competitors and other people in the space. So that’s sometimes a good thing, because it means you’re becoming relevant. But it also has to be a little scary. So like as you’re growing like, what’s going on? Are you thinking like, how do I take this to the next level or just kind of enjoying the ride?

Chris Kirby 31:28
I’m always thinking about what’s the next step? What’s the next step? For sure. I think what really keyed me on to thinking that this really could be big was the reaction that I would get from people at the farmers market. I mean, anyone that I speak with now about how do I start a food or beverage, you know, business, I always recommend starting out in a channel where you are standing face to face with people who are potentially going to be your customers, and just sampling them and getting their reaction to getting their feedback. And in some cases, because if you do that enough, and you’ve got the right product, and you’re getting the right reaction from people, and that alone will tell you like, wow, if I could just make this bigger, how could it not be successful? If I could do that the right way? I just felt like I was onto something for sure. And you know, also, I think it didn’t hurt that I was in Ithaca, New York, which is a very granola kind of town. It’s like the old saying, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere Well, in the hummus, business and ethic in New York. I think that’s definitely true.

Marc Gutman 32:40
And so what did you do? I mean, how did you make that leap? Like, how did you take it from farmers market to something bigger, like regional and then national?

Chris Kirby 32:49
Yeah, very, very incremental steps. When I started, we had a seven day shelf life on the product. So it was like, how do we get it to 14 and then 20, and then 25 and 35? And same thing with distribution? It was what can I physically deliver out of the back of my car? And how many farmers markets can we go to in a weekend with more people to grow the business, which was all we could figure out how to do it the time, especially with a very, very short shelf life, it was really the only thing that we could do. But over time as awareness of what we were doing, and the brand and the product grew, so did the shelf life and so did the size of our business and revenue and profit and just was a great way to just fuel from within, you know, kind of take the scrappy, not go out and raise a ton of money like way too early route, and I’m so glad I did it that way.

Marc Gutman 33:47
And is it self funded? Or do you end up going out and raising money to fuel the growth?

Chris Kirby 33:52
We eventually did raise money from our manufacturer Actually, I moved on from the summer camp kitchen into a factory of my own which was like the dream like I built out this 10,000 square feet of like, it was insane. I felt like Willy Wonka. But after I like got into that and started managing it, it was insane and just way more than I could handle at the same time as everything else. So ultimately, I ended up partnering with le Desiree foods in Rochester, New York not far from us and Ithaca and after a year of just manufacturing the product they wanted in and couldn’t think of a better more strategic partner than not

Marc Gutman 34:31
so incredible. And so you started this business with nothing more than an idea started $200 a month rental in a summer camp kitchen. didn’t really even know too much about hummus other than having experience from Sunday dinners. And here you are on the website it says you’re the fastest growing hummus company in the nation which is an incredible accolade. So what does going from nothing to today? What does it go look like in terms of sighs and how much hummus Are you pumping out?

Chris Kirby 35:04
Well, we’re still very, very small and scrappy. We’re a team of eight people, which is incredible to me. And I mean, to a degree, I think you could look at all of us very experienced and knowledgeable and smart, hard working all that stuff. But in one way or another, I think anybody on our team would admit, like, I have no business doing what I do every day sometimes, which is, I think, a healthy thing. So we very much have that like small, scrappy mentality, which I love. And we went from that farmers market stand and a couple stores in Africa to today, we’re at 7500. stores nationwide, and how much how much do we produce? It’s a really good question, I would say, of the containers that you buy in the store, 10 ounces, you know, 25 to 30,000 of those a week at this point, and growing.

Marc Gutman 35:56
So does that like blow your mind? Like, would you say that number that is?

Chris Kirby 35:59
Like crazy. It’s it’s not? It’s not? I used to, you know, well, we used to apply every label by hand. And actually, when we started, we didn’t buy labels, because we couldn’t afford them. We just put paprika oil on the top for a little bit of like branding, and to think of going from there to where we are now is definitely mind blowing, in hindsight,

Marc Gutman 36:21
In terms of that volume of actual packages, like how do you purchase chickpeas? Like is it by the bushel is it by the crazy by the ton,

Chris Kirby 36:32
It’s by the train load, actually, our facility has a rail that comes in to the back of it. And it’s awesome, because when I first started buying chickpeas, I would like go to restaurant depot and like get a sack of chickpeas. And then eventually I got hooked up with some growers out in Washington State in Pullman, Washington, actually. And they would put it on a rail car from Pullman to this depot in Chicago, and then we would buy it, buy the pallet from there. And yeah, we’ve moved up in the food chain. And now we just get the rail car strength sent straight into the factory, which is really cool.

Marc Gutman 37:11
How many rail cars of chickpeas are coming your way? on a regular basis?

Chris Kirby 37:16
I’d have to check on that. So don’t quote me. But I think we’re definitely moving through multiple rail cars a month at this point.

Marc Gutman 37:23
That’s so cool. And what’s hard about this like, like you said, it’s simple sounds like it’s all gone pretty much to plan but like What don’t we know, like what’s really hard about doing what you’re doing and maintaining ethika Hama spray and ethika hummus brand?

Chris Kirby 37:39
Yeah, if I portrayed it as overly simplified, I can guarantee you that it has not been just so many challenges that I never thought in the moment, sometimes I would be able to overcome that just, you know, end up ended up working out, I would say, what’s been hard for me consistently throughout the business is learning how to grow myself professionally and as a leader, as fast as the business has grown. And as fast as my team that I rely on needs me to grow and really step into that role the best that I can.

Marc Gutman 38:15
So how are you doing that? What kind of things are you doing to fuel your own growth and to become a better leader? Because I think that’s something that a lot of entrepreneurs, look, none of us are born entrepreneurs number is born with this knowledge, we learn it, we educate ourselves, we come up a lot of times out of need, rather than you know, being ahead of time. It’s like we’re catching up or something of that nature. But like so what are you doing to stay up to speed and make sure that you’re developing as a leader,

Chris Kirby 38:40
I spend more time now just not just thinking and not feeling like I’ve got to make decisions and do things like so quickly. And so just off the cuff sometimes. So I’ve definitely slowed down a little bit. And I’ve really tried to not react to things or overreact to things as much as I am naturally inclined to do. I’ve also surrounded myself with some great people, and I could name names, but everyone on my team and even some people outside of the team that I’m more open with in terms of weaknesses now so that they can understand that and they can help backfill and I don’t know, this is a long winded, probably more complex answer a complicated answer than I wish I could give. But I don’t know, I just if I can sum it up, I’ve just tried to be more self aware and transparent about what that actually looks like.

Marc Gutman 39:35
And as it relates to the business, like what are you most excited about right now? Is there something happening with Ithaca or something that you see in the future that is keeping you going and keeping you excited?

Chris Kirby 39:46
Well, our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we’ve got some proof points that we’re actually like really doing that and I think that’s what gets us all all excited on the team at ethika. hummus is thinking about like, the success that we’ve been able to demonstrate on a mid size scale not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now. And we’ve had that much more time in market to generate that much more awareness and that much more trial? What kind of impact is that going to have on the category and on the diets of Americans in the grander scheme?

Marc Gutman 40:34
Is that the metric? Like Is that how you will know that you’re America’s favorite brand of hummus?

Chris Kirby 40:40
Well, I would say, share of category would be that metric. But how will we know that we’ve accomplished that goal? I don’t know. I think we just day by day focused on what can we do today, to grow a little bit more and keep pushing the ball down the field.

Marc Gutman 40:56
And as we come to a close here, Chris, like, I want you to think back to that young boy who is watching Julia Child is watching those cooking shows and just thinking, being intrigued by cooking. And what if he ran into you today? What do you think he’d say, if he saw what you were doing?

Chris Kirby 41:14
I don’t think he would fully understand it. And probably just think it’s like boring. Start cutting up some chickens or something so that I could this is more exciting, you know, but at the same time, I think if he would probably think it’s pretty cool. You know, if he really understood it, and could think about it the way I think about it now, I certainly do. And I’m having a lot of fun and very fulfilling and rewarding a lot of hard work, but I feel grateful and blessed every day.

Marc Gutman 41:44
In that is Chris Kirby, founder and CEO of Ithaca hummus. As I reflect on our conversation, so much of what Chris shared resonated with me. But if I were to highlight one thought, it was his comment about making the switch from being a chef from declaring that his dream had changed. And he wanted to do something different. And while it could be labeled as a failure, it wasn’t. It was merely a change in what he wanted in his evolving world view. And as I think back on my own pivots, my own changes that I’ve at times labeled as failures. This is a resonant reminder that they weren’t failures at all. Just a change in what I wanted.

A big thank you to Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus team. We can’t wait to see you become the number one hummus brand in America and then the world. We will link to all things Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus in the shownotes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Chris come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

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BGBS 058: Kris Fry | Smartwool | It’s an Experiment

BGBS 058: Kris Fry | Smartwool | It’s an Experiment

Kris Fry is a brand pro in love with the magic of ideation and storytelling, armed with the awareness that nothing is more powerful than a well-planned strategy. He is currently the Global Creative director at Smartwool, but has had the opportunity to lead concept, design, and experience for incredible brands like Oakley, Wheel Pros, HEAD, SCOTT Sports, Coors, Eddie Bauer, Punch Bowl Social, and The North Face. As you'll hear in the episode, Kris is fascinated by finding the connection points between consumers and branding in order to find the right brand message that inspires consumers beyond just purchase, to join a community. Our interest in where it all began lead Kris down the path of explaining a world of self-expression, liberation, and rave-style jeans—otherwise known as skateboarding culture—which was pivotal for introducing him to brand expression and has remained an underlying current of inspiration to this day. We go along with the journey that enthralled Kris with the blend of visual language and storytelling, eventually leading him to an opportunity with Smartwool that he wears proudly today.

Quotes

[10:07] That balance of branding and consumers and how they interact is one of the greatest sociology experiments that I just love and nerd out on and I find it fascinating, like it's an experiment—this interaction and this back and forth. Sometimes breaking out a little bit of a crystal ball and doing some guesswork, having some data to throw in there. [Those] foundational elements help guide the creative to come up with that brand-right message that just connects with people and hopefully inspires them beyond just purchase. It inspires them to join a community. [10:49] One of our main goals is to get people outside. It's not about what you do outside or how well you do it, we just think there's this beautiful inherent thing about nature. [12:02] There's just so many powerful elements that I think brands have a responsibility to really drive with consumers. I think there's a lot of brands doing some really cool stuff and activating in cool ways and opening up conversations and exposing communities to things they've never seen before. I think brands are inspiring. [14:06] I think skateboarding and finding skateboarding and that community for me, essentially changed my life and made me really recognize brands—what they stood for. And I started to kind of badge and, with the little money I had, could adopt these brands, because they meant something and they said something about me. And so I might not have recognized the power of them then, or that I would want to pursue that as a career, but art has always been a part of it. [18:17] Another thing that I've always loved about skateboarding is they always find a way to get back underground and come back out with a new look, feel that's unique to the culture in that moment, and I can't think of another sport activity or movement that has been able to do that decade over decade over decade.

Resources

Instagram: @kfrydesign LinkedIn: Kris Fry Kris Fry: Smartwool Website: smartwool.com

Podcast Transcript

Kris Fry 0:02 Every generation a parent's right is trying to just not do what their parents did them. And I think for me, I've come to a place where I haven't felt that shame in a long time. That a lot of that is who you surround yourself with and things that you do that make you happy and build confidence in who you are as a person. And that's kind of been me like I've had to find a sense of worth and confidence in myself and value in myself that you know how to use quite a bit to get out of that kind of shameful feeling. But, you know, design and art and those things, music, especially like, those are all things that I think have really helped me figure out who I am. And you know where I want to go. Marc Gutman 0:52 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking to Kris Fry, global creative director. It's Smartwool. And before we get into my conversation with Kris, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend who you think will like it. It may be even one enemy who will like it. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the baby got backstory podcast. Today's guest is Kris Fry global creative director at Smartwool. And I'm gonna let you know right now, we don't talk a whole lot about Smartwool. That's because Kris took the conversation in a wonderfully raw and fascinating direction. Kris has had the opportunity to lead concept design and experience for some incredible brands like Oakley, wheel pros, head, Scott sports cores, Eddie Bauer, Punchbowl, social and the North Face. He is currently the global creative director at Smartwool, which is part of the Vf Corporation. And as you'll hear, he describes himself as a freelancer, a failure startup and an agency executive. He's worked brand side agency side, and more often than not somewhere in between. Kris says in his words. I'm in love with the magic of ideation and storytelling, but also believe that nothing is more powerful than a well planned strategy. This is a brand pro and marketer after my own heart. I've known Kris for years, we've worked together in the past. And I didn't know about 95% of what he shares in this episode. In this is his story. I am here with Kris Fry, the global creative director at Smartwool. Thanks for joining us, Kris. Really appreciate it. And as we get into the episode here, like what is a global creative director, it's Smartwool. Like what does that mean? Kris Fry 3:49 Thanks for having me. Great question. Well, essentially, I am a creative director at Smartwool. So I essentially drive all of the marketing materials, marketing materials, storytelling efforts, branding, really kind of drive the purpose and values of the brand globally. As you know, our brand is mostly us focused and based, you know, we are growing in some key markets, specifically Canada, Europe, em EA. And so my job globally, is to make sure that the brand is not only consistent, but compelling in all of those regions, and work with kind of different marketing teams within the regions to kind of help them you know, keep consistent and make sure that kind of those brand values and that purpose for the brand is really driven home at every communication point. Marc Gutman 4:40 Yeah, and just so our listeners know, and I'm sure about 99.9% of them are familiar with Smartwool but in case they're not, I want you to give us a little kind of blurb on who and what Smartwool is. Kris Fry 4:55 Awesome. Yeah, so Smartwool is a apparel company. So started in the sock business, they were the first ones to make merino wool based performance socks in steamboat, Colorado. And for 26 years, they have been kind of crafting and re crafting and kind of growing into other spaces like apparel and accessories, and really kind of taking this merino wool expertise and this knitting expertise that came from socks. And then growing that across many categories, base layer, mid layer, finding every kind of which way you can twist and knit wool. Marc Gutman 5:35 Yeah, and you know, that makes me feel dated, because I remember when Smartwool was like a new novel thing, you know, and Brian, Marina Marino sport socks were like, this, this crazy new concept. And now here we are 26 laters, I haven't realized it's, it's been that long. And let's get back a little bit to this description of global creative director. Because before we move past that, I really want to define that a little more like, what's your What are your days? Like? I mean, are you sitting around? Is that the way that I like to imagine the fantasy that you're in some studio? And you're splashing paint? And you're ripping up paper? And you're, you know, mocking up things? Or is it? Is it something completely different than that? Kris Fry 6:17 Well, I'm gonna be honest, some days are like that, for sure. You know, ideating generating ideas comes from all kinds of different spots, right? Whether that be gathering inspiration from books, but my main objective is to lead a team and inspire them. And to help them solve larger brand problems. I also worked very closely with the head of global marketing, to really kind of define the strategies, that kind of, you know, the strategies that essentially kind of define only the campaign's but you know, all of the kind of go to market product stories that we're going to tell seasonally. And so I work quite a bit with the product development team, as well, as our design directors suggests who really runs kind of the product design program, she's essentially kind of my, my peer and partner in crime to really kind of, at every angle, make sure that the aesthetic of the brand is coming through storytelling, those kind of bigger product thematics, and consumer insights, how they're kind of really driven into the product, as well as into all of our marketing efforts. And then, yeah, so a day like today, you know, I'll start off with a, you know, kind of a team leadership meeting, I guess, with, you know, a group of folks that I brought on to kind of help work on the team in a different way. So writers or directors, designers, and then you know, might slide into a strategy meeting, to really kind of define how we're going to be brief certain projects, and, and then I still take a pretty hands on approach to the work. So sometimes I'm, you know, blocking out a couple hours on the calendar to, as you say, like, rip up paper, get creative, get inspired. And then yeah, sometimes, you know, it's a larger leadership things. Right now, we have some kind of fundamental brand things that we're developing, specifically around kind of identifying our design target, who they are, what motivates them, and really kind of trying to drive this idea of being consumer and digital first, for smartwatches. Right? Smartwool is a brand that has largely been wholesale driven, and just with the changes, you know, even before COVID, right, the world of wholesale is changing. And so we're trying to identify ways to really support our wholesale and specialty partners, make sure the brand and that brand love is being generated and resonated from those partners, as well as taking an active look at strategically, you know, how we, how we bring more digital activations to life so we can really grow our brand and bring, you know, new consumers to it. Marc Gutman 9:03 And so you and I have talked about this before, you've mentioned it several times, just in that last, that last reply, talking about brand and brand aesthetics, and storytelling, and so you know, that those are all topics that are near and dear to my heart, like, like, what why is it important that your almost entire focus is is on that, like, why does that matter? Kris Fry 9:23 I think there's, for me a bunch of different reasons, like I think, I don't know, I think brands have an opportunity to, to do some pretty powerful and meaningful things beyond just selling products, right? I think there's opportunity, especially with, you know, culturally, the sea change that is happening, for brands to have a point of view, right, and I think to to become more than just kind of valuable products, right, and, and stories are really kind of the key driver for the for identifying kind of those connections. points with consumers, right. But I do think it's, you know, for me, I don't know the brand, that balance of branding and consumers and how they interact, I think is like one of the greatest, like sociology experiments that I just like, love and nerd out on. And I don't know why. But I find it fascinating, right? Like, it's an experiment like this interaction and this back and forth. And sometimes breaking out a little bit of a crystal ball and doing some guesswork, having some data to throw in there that's, you know, foundational elements to help guide the creative, to come up with that brand right message that just connects with people, and hopefully inspires them beyond just purchase, right inspires them to, to join a community and for smart goals, specifically, right, it's one of our main goals is to get people outside, right? It's, it's not about what you do outside or how well you do it, we just think there's this beautiful inherent thing about nature. And our products, you know, not only provide protection, but they also provide comfort. And hopefully those things, you know, are we like to say like, our main job is essentially to ignite transformative moments for consumers, right. And that come through in product and our communication. And to me, that's why branding is important, because it sets a path and a tone that everybody can rally behind. And hopefully, our customers and consumers feel that, you know, there's nothing like throwing on a snappy new pair of socks. And you know, when you pull that toe over, and you snap that Smartwool logo over the toes, that to me is a transformative moment, right? You, you feel all of the innovation that went into the sock that you may not be able to see, you feel the power of natural materials. And, you know, that should give you this sense of you're taking really good care of your feet by making you know, this purchase from this fun loving brand. Right? So very long winded answer to your question, as usual. But I don't know, there's just so many powerful elements that I think brands have a responsibility to really drive with, with consumers. And, and I think there's a lot of brands doing some really cool stuff and activating a cool ways and opening up conversations and exposing communities the things they've never seen before. I think brands are inspiring. Marc Gutman 12:23 And I couldn't agree more. I mean, you describe yourself as nerding out on brand and the social experiment. I agree. I think it's just this incredible dance, it's always changing. It sometimes is maddening. It's so fickle. But that's what I think also keeps us coming back for more. You know, it's never it's never static. And so where did you grow up? Kris Fry 12:43 I actually grew up in Littleton Colorado, not too far from home. Yeah. Marc Gutman 12:48 Colorado native, we don't we don't encounter those very often, not just on the baby gun, podcast, but just in, in real life, except this next generation, like all our kids will be the Colorado natives. But as you're growing up there in Littleton, Colorado, I mean, did you know that you were gonna be drawn to this, this idea of branding, and even in a broader sphere, being a creative? Kris Fry 13:12 I don't think I knew about, you know, or wasn't, I wasn't really attracted to brands or branding, until maybe, I'd say high school, junior high school level, right? Like before that, you know, didn't matter. It was just whatever I could throw on and go ride my bike, and get outside. But being a creative for sure. I was always into art, and drawing and painting, you know, in junior high moment was like, I always mean, my buddies always talk about like, junior high, I feel like is used to be this defining moment where you're either going to be go down a good path, or a bad path, right, and start experimenting a little bit like that seventh to eighth grade. And I chose, you know, to try some some things in my life at that moment, right. But I was also introduced to a totally different world that took, you know, drawing and painting to another level of expression, right? music changed, art changed. And I think skateboarding and finding skateboarding and that community for me, essentially changed my life, and made me really recognize brands, what they stood for. And, you know, I started to kind of badge and, you know, with the little money I had, right could can adopt these brands, because they meant something and they said something about me. And so I might not have recognized the power of them then, or that I would want to pursue you know that as a career, but art has always been a part of it. Being creative has always been a part of it. You know, Music has always, you know, been a key part of my life. I'm a failed musician many times over, right? Like, I would love to be able to play the guitar. I've tried many times and failed, right? But it's something that's always been like a underlying current and powerful inspiration point. forever. Marc Gutman 15:01 Well, and you and I share that in common. I have multiple guitars that I've purchased throughout the years that I've, you know, that I've started playing never successfully as well. And I've got a nice little collection. So we got that going. And as well, and I don't know if this is my bias, I don't know if it's who I tend to No, but there really does seem to be this interesting thread through the creatives that have been on this show that have all have gotten to a really great point in their careers where they were really inspired and informed by skateboarding. And then, you know, in another layer of that being music, that's come up a lot, too. But I mean, what do you think it is about that skate culture that lends itself to being this this foundational, either community or just inspiration for for creatives, especially those, you know, if our generation? Kris Fry 15:57 Yeah, I mean, for me, it was this idea of self expression. And just, I don't know, being a totally unique individual, like I felt that come through with, you know, every one of my favorite skateboarders, every one of the skateboard brands, right from the artists, they chose to do the graphics to the colors to the way they treated the logos, right. And that attitude was something that me and my group of friends tried to personify in our own way, you know, everybody had, like, intentionally was, you know, trying to cut their, their own style, right, like I came up in like the early 90s version of skateboarding, which was very much like, cut off ultra baggy jeans or going to thrift stores or buying, you know, 40 size pants when I was like a 28 waist, and they're massive, but I would cut off the bell bottoms, it wasn't quite like Genco like jinko level, you know, like the rave style jeans, but there was a DIY customization like, self expression, like, thing that just was artistic and kind of weird. And, and I think that also kind of alliance of the punk rock scene and DIY spirit of carving your own way, and having a voice and not being afraid to, to express yourself at that was very liberating, right? For me. And I don't know, it was just super influential. I think part of it too, was also, you know, what the environment I grew up in. Skateboarding was this pivotal thing that happened, and I got to experience and that was mine. And that was just a very different than what I had at home. Right. It was an escape for me, too. And I think, for me, that's what it was, I know, for my group of friends at the time, right? Like, that's what it was for them to. We had our we had our own community that we made, right, we could do, and talk and be ourselves and that little bubble, and it felt like a safe space. That was our stone, which I I really, you know, think is because of skateboarding. You know, I don't know if that was ever anybody's intent that got a skateboard, but they've been reinventing it and doing it for decades, right, like, and that's another thing that I've always loved about skateboarding is they always find a way to get back underground and come back out with a new look feel that's unique to the culture in that moment, you know, and that I can't think of another sport activity, you know, or movement that has been able to do that decade over decade over a decade, you know. Marc Gutman 18:41 Yeah, neither can I. And so, then at that age, in addition to skateboarding, like how was school going for you? Were you a good student? Or did you have any sense of where you were going with yourself? Kris Fry 18:55 Not at all. I was a terrible student. Some of it by choice, some of it by Yeah, most of it by choice, right? Like, uh, I gotta pick the things in the moments that I wanted to pay attention to. And you know, in high school in high school, kind of had my core group of friends and you know, we we were all into skateboarding and we kind of did our thing and I wasn't very good at math or you know, proper English I'm still terrible with grammar thank God for copywriters. But um, you know, I think those are the things I just didn't love and appreciate and I didn't put a value set to them. But art I did write I took every photo photography class, every drawing class, and I did really well in those classes. Like my dad used to always be like, You're like a half straight A student right? Like because I get perfect grades and all the art classes and then every other thing I was failing out of but you know, that was that. It was This was like, what I glommed on to, and I loved and again, I think a lot of it just felt like a, an avenue of expression for me more than anything, right. And I had some really supportive teachers in my high school that, you know, saw some talented me and nurtured it and supported it. And I just kind of kept on this art train. And, you know, I had another very influential high school teacher. His name is Bill stout. He's, he was just a rad Dude, I had him freshman year for I forget the name of the class, but English 101 or whatever. And, and he was so cool, because he got us into creative writing, in a very cool way, right? We'd have to write in journals. And at the beginning, it was like, Oh, God, here you go first. 10 minutes of class, right? You got to write in your journal and, and Mr. style was like, super into music as well. And so he'd always put on music. But it wasn't just like, Oh, I'm gonna put on, you know, some top 40 it was like, he was he was playing Pearl Jam, when like, Pearl Jam was new. He was like, and so every kid in the class was like, Fuck, yeah, this, this is amazing, right. And he's just was this cool, dude. And he, I learned a lot from him. And I actually had a chance my senior year, the only AP class I had was AP English. And Mr. style was like, I remember you from freshman year, even though you haven't been that successful. Like, I think, you know, this would be a good class for you. And I love that class. And he changed the rules. And that's what I loved about it, too, is it wasn't about curriculum, to him, it was about my goal is to make sure that you are expanding your brain as a young man. And so he'd be like, I, I want you to do the curriculum stuff, you're gonna get graded on it, for sure. He's like, but what I really want you to do is read. And he had this deal. If you read so many pages, essentially, it would, you know, take over what you didn't do in the curriculum. And so I was like, This is amazing. And so I, I adopted reading, and he, he would, you know, do these kind of book report interview style things, but the books he was given me were insane books, like catch 22, Catcher in the Rye, you know, those kind of standard ones that are like coming of age, great stories, but then it got into like, I don't know, cosmic Bandidos and some weird shit. And then he got me into the Basketball Diaries, and just some counterculture stories that were very real and gritty and raw, like, it was super inspiring to me. And it opened my mind up to like, things I had no idea existed, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if you've read the gym, like Basketball Diaries by Jim Carroll. But like, they made a movie of it with Leonardo DiCaprio. But if you ever get a chance, go on Amazon order the book. It's fucking astounding, like, what was happening in New York and his artistry and who Jim Carroll became like, it's just like, I don't know, it's a period piece that is just iconic and resonates with me. But I don't know, I think maybe that ultimately helped me craft this love of Art and Design and the visual language with storytelling, right like that. I would have never found that without Mr. Stout. Marc Gutman 23:18 Yeah. And so at that time, I mean, did you have a sense of what was next? I mean, were was Mr. stau. And your parents were they like, Oh, hey, like, you should go with him? Or were they saying or what was your thought were we gonna do after high school? Kris Fry 23:33 Yeah, I mean, Mr. Stout. He was the kind of guy that was like, he was kind of, like, I'll support you with whatever you want to do, right. And I really had no idea that I wanted to pursue anything and kind of the, you know, advertising marketing, branding world. And all I knew art was something I was talented at, and wanted to pursue. I, you know, I ended up, you know, wanting to go to art school. My parents on the other hand, right, like they, I come from a pretty religious, strict religious background, that I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, essentially, until about my junior year in high school, and I decided I wanted to smoke weed and date girls and have friends outside of the church. And, you know, that didn't vibe with my parents, too well, and so, you know, by that senior year, I was a bit at odds with them. And I had found all these really cool things and was starting to figure out who I wanted to be personally right outside of the parameters that have had essentially contained me since I was, you know, a young child. And, and so I felt like art school is like my thing, and they were supportive, for sure. Right. They were glad I had chosen something. They wanted me to, you know, apply my art to the larger church group and help the church group lunch. You know, what's their goal for everything and I wanted out, I was like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. So I applied to a ton of art schools, I ended up getting accepted to a few of them, including the Alberta College of Art and Design in Calgary, and spent a summer went up there visited the campus, it was awesome. Like, I remember just being, you know, high school kid and walking through this campus and going down the stairwells, and they were filled with graffiti, and they're like, Oh, yeah, this is like, the graffiti one on one class. And I was like, Oh, fuck this, like, this is this is it, you know, I mean, and I was there with my dad. And, and he was super into it. And I had, I had gotten a scholarship to go there and international students scholarship. And so I was primed and ready. But, you know, I was also not a very I wasn't very good at the details when it came to that stuff. And so I applied, got the scholarship, and I essentially messed up my visas, and my applications for the visas. And right before I was going to go there, I was informed that I had lost my scholarship. And, and I could apply again next year for the same scholarship and they would kind of happy and right now, I was pretty heartbroken at that point. And so I don't know, do you want me to keep laughing? But yeah, I think at that moment, my biggest goals were to somehow find a way to make art as a job. And also, part two of that big goal was to get as far away from Littleton Colorado as possible, which Canada had all the right things. Marc Gutman 26:44 So we're gonna come right back to that, but I want to talk a little bit, I want to just learn a little bit more like you, you use the, the phrase or the term the description to Hovis witness. And, like, I'm sitting here thinking, like, I don't really think I know, a fish, like, I couldn't tell you, I couldn't describe that back to you. And so if you could like, like, just kind of give me the one on one, like, what is that? And and how did that affect you is in your upbringing, and I also find it interesting as you as you describe this, that, you know, you spent some time talking about describing, being involved in the skate culture and, and, and getting into music, all these things, but yet you have this other influence from from your upbringing. And so yeah, if you could just kind of give us the one on one on Jehovah's Witness and, and what it was like, for you growing up in that environment? Kris Fry 27:32 Yeah, for sure. What's the best way to describe it? It's a, it's a Christian based religion. And it's a it's a, you know, it's a pretty large and growing religion, but essentially, the way most people would know by, you know, Saturday and Sunday mornings, you hear the kind of knock on your door, and somebody is, you know, trying to get you involved in reading the Bible, or having a study group or, you know, try to kind of get you involved in that religion, right. That's the most common thing. And you've probably seen it Saturday Night Live, all kinds of, you know, any comedic effort, right. Like, that's always the, the joke around Jehovah's Witnesses. But, you know, that wasn't, you know, I grew up, I was kind of born into it, essentially, I had the opportunity to celebrate my first birthday. But one of the big belief systems that the Jehovah's Witnesses have is around making sure that all of your kind of focus and energy is around paying tribute to, to God, that includes, you know, not worshiping yourself. So there was no birthdays, all common holidays were not celebrated. And, let's see, yeah, it was it was essentially, it was cult like, in the sense, I don't want to call it that, right, because I don't really believe that. I think the people there, my dad is still participating, right? Like, they're very kind of Christian based folks. And I think that they just are very disciplined in their belief system. Right. And for a long time, you know, was at odds with my dad, because I just didn't understand it, you know, but for him, it was, it was his truth. And it didn't work out for everybody else in my family, essentially. And I was kind of the catalyst for that change. But for him, it's it's what he believes in and he loves and I've come to, you know, to terms with that, and we kind of have a agree to disagree, right. I think the the fundamentals of that religion are rooted in, you know, truly the teachings of the Bible, in the sense of kindness and taking care of your fellow man. And their approach is to try and bring as many people into that, you know, you know, into their community as possible. They do that by knocking on doors. But, you know, for me, it was always so restrictive. It was, I mean, we we would go, you know, knocking on doors Saturdays on Sundays, Sundays we'd be at church, we also would have church Tuesday evenings and Thursday evenings. And then mixed in there were, you know, Bible studies, and it was just, it was always, such as Groundhog Day, I'll just call it right. Like, it was Groundhog Day, every day. But all based on on the same ideals and the same belief system. And as I was, you know, getting into skateboarding, and all of those things, and developing friendships, right, those are all, no no's inside of the church, right, you're supposed to hang with your community, because everybody else outside of that has different views that potentially will drive you away from the church. And for me, that was always like, a weird thing. And it always, like, rubbed me the wrong way to a point that it created a created defiance in me, right. And it was a was a perfect storm of me, being at that age, and pushing back against whatever all the normal things you're supposed to push back as a teenager, but also having this like, Governor on your life, your whole life, right. And I wanted to experience life, I, I wanted to experience friendships and adventures, and art, and music and culture and skateboarding and all of these things, you know, and they were the exact opposite of what my father's house was supposed to be. And so for a majority of my high school life, I would probably say that I lived a double life, you know, I'd go to school, and I'd be one person with my friends and, and then I'd come home, and, you know, I would tamp all of that stuff down, you know, and it was hard. And I remember, you know, we'd always dress up in suits and ties on Saturdays. And that was always like, the hardest day for me to remember, because my dad would be like, Okay, well, you know, let's go get our community hours in and, and, you know, do right by the religion, and try and go knock on some doors. And it was a gut wrenching feeling for me to go into a neighborhood where I knew my friends lived, and to be there next to my dad knocking on their door. And I just remember being so anxious, right, like, just waiting, waiting for that moment where I make eye contact with somebody I knew from school. And then just thinking in my head the whole time of like, the, the teenage terrorism that was about to take place that on when I got back on Monday. And anyways, long story short, that I think that had a lot to do with. I don't know, my, my love of, you know, skateboarding and the idea of a counterculture. And the idea of breaking free. Like, I don't know, that's why I like what I do now, because it's on adulterated freedom. And I think there's power in that, you know, sorry, I just took a deep. That was great. That Marc Gutman 33:06 It must've, thank you for sharing that. I mean, it must have been really hard living with that, that secret that at any moment, like, you could get busted, I can only imagine it would even be intensified by being like, Hey, I'm this cool. Skate counterculture guy. And that's a big contrast. Right? Kris Fry 33:24 Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that was it, you know, and I was never, at that age, you know, I kind of took it to the limit, I can take it to you. Right, like, definitely identified as a skateboarder identified with a certain group of kids. But, you know, there's no way I was, you know, bleaching my hair, or no way I was, you know, getting anything pierced or, or going to, you know, a level of extremism, I guess, at that time. Um, there's just no way there's no way my I could handle the consequences that when I got back to the, to the house, and also the jig would be up, right. Like, it was one thing to wear baggy pants and a skateboard t that I picked up at BC surfing sport, that whatever had a funny character on it that, you know, my mom thought was cute. It's another thing to come in guns blazing. And, and not have, you know, a job not not my dad would ever have kicked me out. But I, you know, I grew up as you did in that generation where, you know, corporal punishment and spankings were real deal. You know what I mean? Like, at the backside of mini wooden spoons and leather belts. And at that age, like, I was just trying to find my way. And so I was trying to find the best way I could survive to a point, you know, you know, it always bubbles up at one point, right? Like the, it always comes out, you know, and it took a while, you know, until I had some real freedoms in my own right. Like I was driving, if I could, I had a job I could spend my money the way I wanted to spend it. And that's when the the That's also when cowboys from hell by Pantera was out and like, full aggression just was like, boiling inside of me. And that's where, you know, the kind of first set of my push to my own kind of set of values and freedoms really, you know, came at odds with my dad's point of view, you know, and my dad was a, he's a very kind man still is to this day, right? And I can only imagine the torture, I put him through, right, because I think he was just like, man, I just wanna, I just wanna love you. And this is why I'm doing this for you and not blasting Pantera every night when I get home, and, you know, bring girls over and smoking weed and like, sure, fucking whatever, not a proud moment, but it was my moment. But eventually, it essentially caused the collapse of, you know, my tenure as a job as witness, they have this thing in the religion where, you know, essentially, they call it being disfellowshipped. And so essentially, if you, whatever break the rules of the community, or if you're identified as somebody that is, you know, not living up to the standards of their religion, and they just associate you, which is a weird thing as a 16 year old to think about, but that was disassociated, essentially, like, you're allowed to come to the, to the church as much as you want and pray and work on being a better Christian. But nobody's allowed to talk to you can't can't convene, you're kind of the like, you know, the people, the higher ups are allowed to kind of talk to you, but it's mostly about, you know, how you're coming back to the, to the religion outside of that, like, I wasn't invited to anybody's family, barbecues or I was, I was at home, and you know, my family would go do that without me, which was fine by me at the time, to be honest. , Marc Gutman 36:57 Well it sounds a little heavy. I mean, was that was it fine? Or was there like some shame involved in that? Kris Fry 37:04 I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure there's some deep rooted shame in me, right. But I don't know. Like, I think I've now that I'm kind of in my 40s, I feel like I have a sense of who I am and what I want to be right. I have my own kids. And I think that shame as has helped me actually, you know, hopefully not fuck them up and protect them from making sure that you know, that they don't feel that same level of shame, right? I think that's, I mean, it's probably, it's cliche to say, but it's cliche, because it's true that every generation of parents, right, is trying to just not do what their parents did to them. And I think for me, I've come to a place for, you know, I haven't felt that shame, in a long time, that a lot of that is who you surround yourself with, and things that you do that make you happy and build confidence in who you are as a person. And, and, yeah, and I think that's kind of been me, like I've, I've had to find a sense of worth and confidence in myself and value in myself that, you know, had to use quite a bit to get out of that kind of shameful feeling. But, you know, design and art and all those things, music, especially like, those are all things that I think have really helped me figure out who I am. And you know, where I want to go, you know, to me? Marc Gutman 38:35 Absolutely, again, you know, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that, you know, I was gonna say, you're worried about not fucking up your kids. It's like, Hey, you know, newsflash, we're all we're all messing up our kids. So it's how much and so we try to try to minimize that. So we're doing our best we can, but Kris Fry 38:49 At least it won't be shame that I got them up another way, but Marc Gutman 38:54 Give him a different emotion. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. Brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve, so that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. And that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. You know, kind of coming back to Calgary. So in Alberta School of Art, you'd missed your deadline, you'd missed the scholarship. Did you end up getting to go there the following year? or What happened? Kris Fry 40:12 No, I did not. So I decided All right, cool. Well, I'll come back to Littleton and, you know, I'll get a job for the summer, and then I'll essentially reapply for school and go back to school. Well, that kind of didn't work out because I started waiting tables. And I don't know, like, if anybody's ever seen that movie waiting with Ryan Reynolds, but like, every fucking moment in that movie is 100%. accurate. And I worked in multiple restaurants. And it's literally the exact like, it's, it's so true, the characters are so true. But go watch Ryan Reynolds waiting. And that'll kind of describe the next kind of year and a half of my life, right was waiting tables. And, and then, you know, my mom happened to actually work. She was working at the energy group, back before they were owned by Omnicom. And they were essentially like, had two clients. And it was, who was it cooler, like, well, they had coolers at the time that they had, I forget another kind of client, right. But they were kind of this, you know, advertising agency that was originally built out of Coors Brewing. And then they kind of broke off and became a manager and their, their biggest client was coolers and my mom worked in the merchandising department, which is essentially like the crew that comes up with all the RAD ideas that are the giveaway stuff. So like, the inflatable couch that you got, after buying, you know, so many packs of Coors Light, like, so. My mom was like, she was really creative. And it was awesome. And, you know, this was kind of her first, I guess, like, after having kids and kids going through school like job, right. So first, like a full time corporate kind of cool job, right. And so it was cool. So my mom actually got me a job at imager. And my first job at imager is they just built a new studio that was on the back of their building. And it was kind of separate from the main hub. And so they had all the art directors, writers, and kind of conceptual people on one side of the building, count people share that building. And then the studio folks that were doing all the, you know, CG stuff and all that kind of stuff. We're in this back building. And this is my favorite thing. There was it was maybe 50 yards across the parking lot. But they had decided that it was really complicated for people to run job jackets, this will date me a little bit, but job jackets, like in the advertising world, they're these huge plastic jackets that essentially had the brief in the front sleeve. And then at this, at this time, everything was printed, right? So you'd have every round of revisions, all the notes, all the copy editing notes, and they're all bundled together in this pocket of this like giant blue. I remember them being like powder, blue folders. And so my job, they gave me a pager, which was cool at the time, they would page me. And I would call and they'd be like, hey, it's such and such art director, can you run this job jacket over the studio? And essentially, that was my job. But I ran job jackets all day back and forth between our directors and the essentially studio design team. But that's when I found it. That's when I was like, so like, I don't know, like maybe one day in between a lot of pages. I was like looking around, and I was like, wait a minute. Like, what do you guys do here? Like, what what's going on here? And, and I saw like, and met and have a lot of people that were just super cool and nice. There's a dude, Jason wedekind. I think everybody knows me. Like, these are rad dude. But he owns this print shop called gagis current design for him. Jason's like, awesome, but he he worked there. When I was there, and he was like, one of the dudes that was like, always down to just chat me up, right? Like, I'm 18 something like that. Yeah. 1718 anyways, Jason was like, cool, dude. And he was he was doing he would do freelance projects for all these up and coming breweries and be like, yo, don't tell anyone and like, I'd go to the printer and help him like, grab the whole product. Maybe now it's been so long, he's not getting fired again. So, but Jason was rad but he exposed me to this really cool world of design and at that point, it was kind of still in its in like the starting phase. Right? Like we're talking about Photoshop and illustrators, like, not very high on the version list, right? Like we're definitely far from Creative Cloud like but, you know, watching I used to just sit in his cube and other folks, you And just rap and watch them design and watch them be able to like take their drawing or their concept or their idea and mold it and sculpt it and then use type and like, build cool shit like labels and advertisements. And I was like, Damn, this is badass. I, I had found my thing. And yeah, I was still like waiting tables at night. And then like running job jackets back and forth. But it was at this kind of integer group that I really and this is back, like, when integer was still pretty small. And that was very different. It still had a bit of that Mad, Mad Men culture, right? Like it was also my biggest client was beer. And so they'd have these rad parties and like, big announcements, and it was just a bunch of really cool people. And that was kind of when it all clicked in. And I was like, I want to have a job. You know, as an art director, I want I want to do what these guys are doing. There's some really cool people that really helped me get there. Tom pounders was another dude, legendary art director in Denver. And he was like, super old school ad guy didn't really know how to use all of the computer stuff. He was drawing, right. And all of his concepts were illustrated and like, but he had really cool ideas. And I just remember sitting in his office and like, he just like blow my mind. And another dude, Matt Holly, who was like, killer designer typographers, or, like, I don't know, things. Like, there was just a ton of really good people that had no problem, helping me, Excel, teaching me the programs, showing me how things come together. I guess I was kind of like, whatever. The orphan of integer studios, right? And they would like all help me and teach me things. And it was really cool. And that's what I decided that I wanted to do. And as I kind of moved up within the studio, right, like, they asked me to start doing, you know, studio production work, which at that time, they were still doing presentations on kind of black boards, right. So my job was essentially to take the stuff out of the printer and build their presentations before they go pitch a client, right? So I got very handy with an exacto blade and a ruler and perfectly mounting all these artboards and then turned into like building mock ups. So hey, can you make us a 3d version of this, whatever? beard in dial display, right. And so I build it out of paper, and they take it to a presentation and, and then they started kind of giving me some projects to work on, like Junior art director level projects. And yeah, I did a lot of work on the zema brand, if you remember zema. Oh, yeah, totally. How could you not iconic, right. And I remember like, at that time, Shepard Fairey was like, all the rage in the skateboarding world. And I straight ripped off. Not a pixel for pixel. But I essentially have ripped off the idea of using stencils, right to create these zema out of home boards. And there was another woman there, Monique van Asch, who actually has a really cool studio in Denver now. And she was also like, so rad at like helping me but she used to give me projects to like, Hey, you want to do a flyer for this event going on? It's Coors Light sponsored, and, and she'd be like, here's your inspiration. So she'd give me these, like mini briefs for these small projects that were just fun to work on. Because it was like, oh, cool, make a, you know, five by seven flyer, and you can use any style you want. And then she critique it. And I was just a really, at that time, it was a really cool place to like, learn from these, like, really talented people that were totally open arms in teaching me anything I wanted to know. And the only Crux was, you know, I didn't have a college education. And I remember, they were like, well, you should just put your book together from all the projects that you've done over the years. And I was like, Oh, cool. So I put it together my book and I went and talked to at that time, I forget what his title was. But, you know, Chief Creative Officer, I guess it'd be the contemporary title right now. But I sat down with a gentleman and he was super cool, super positive about my work, he loved everything. And essentially, he was like, I can't hire you. You need to have you know, I think you need some formal training and you know, foundational elements of design and, and, and art theory and all these other kind of things. And I was like, Oh, shit, I was heartbroken brain so sorry, I'm just talking Marc, so you're gonna have to just tell me to shut up. Marc Gutman 49:51 Never keep going and so what happened and you go to school, or did you tell that guy to to go pound sand? Kris Fry 49:58 Well, I did tell him No, I didn't. about pounds sand I was thankful for, you know, his critique and he kind of helped me lay out a clear path. And so I pivoted from there and was like, Okay, I'm gonna go back to school. And so I had some friends that were already enrolled in Montana State University in Bozeman. And I had some family in Billings, and my cousin went to MSU. And well, essentially, like, some of my best friends from high school are there and I, you know, I, I kind of was flying by the seat of my pants, because I was like, I just need to get a college degree so that I can get a job, you know, doing this thing that I love, right. And I didn't really look too hard at the, you know, the programs that they had at MSU lucked out, and you know, they had a really awesome art program. And so I kind of enrolled and was, you know, starting to pursue a degree in Fine Arts. And it was going really well. I was living in Bozeman and taking advantage of all the cool outdoor things that Bozeman has to offer, right, like ripping Bridger bowl and riding bikes. And essentially, it was like, there was, I think there's six of us living in a three or four bedroom house and I since I was the last one to join, lived in the tuff shed, in the back of the house had a full size Malamute, and two large space heaters that got me through winters. And it was awesome because I, I built like a little loft in there and did art and worked on my stuff. And then as much as I could, you know, when snowboarding or hiking or was just outside, right, like Bozeman, at this time, Bozeman was still pretty small college town. Now it's blown up and a little bit different, but it was it was a really cool place. And then one Christmas break, I came home, and I started working over the holiday break to make some extra money. And back to integer. So the studio manager, Studer shoemakers awesome. reached out to me, I was like, like, you want to do work part time while you're home from school and like you can whatever help us with some studio projects. And I was like, Yeah, totally. And I just got super into it. I was like doing cool projects again. And like, I don't know, I really loved Bozeman, but I just like had this burning desire to just like, jump as hard and as fast as I could into learning what I wanted to do. And so I just never went back to school. I went back that summer, to see my roommates. And I essentially pack up my tuff shed. And my dad actually had a trailer so you don't meet trailer at all back. And that was like living back at home and working editor and Marc Gutman 52:55 Did they ever hire you full time there? Kris Fry 52:58 They did kind of studio production manager. And so kind of that job evolved into actual need, right? And so they had a lot more projects that they needed copying and mounting and building. And so I kind of turned it like they turned it into a job essentially, based on the needs. And at that time, they had been bought by Omnicom. I think my mom was still working the time around. Yeah, my mom was still working there. She'd been there a while. And anyways, like it was cool. I like was working in this hub of essentially, like art directors Central. And I was like, 21 Yeah, 21 I'd have to be and he was about that age, right. And so now I can actually take advantage of all those parties that I couldn't before. And I was younger. And so it's like this whole world, another whole world opened up. And then at that time, when I came back integer had landed on airwalk as a client. And Matt Holly was kind of the lead our director and then they had this new dude that had just moved to Denver named Jeffrey Bice. He moved from California and he was like this. It's hard to describe like he is just this fucking infectious, awesome, design focused. Dude from California that just like, kind of came in, it was a bit of a wrecking ball integer, right, like they were kind of developing this corporate structure. And he was this dude that was just like, like blow through barriers. He was selling these amazing campaigns for all these beer brands that were like lightyears ahead of other work that was being done. And anyways, for me, I really was just like, oh my god, Jeff, and I headed off and he asked me to do a bunch of projects for airwalk. And so I started doing a bunch of stuff for airwalk specifically on like the genetic skate brand, which is like a sub brand they had built at that time and Like, you know, Matt and Jeff kind of really encouraged me and I was really authentic to that culture and knew it really well and could help kind of bridge the gap from that, like, agency world to, to that airwalk endemic world and, and then, yeah, and then that's when I met, you know, critical characters in my life that you know, as well. And anyways, so that thing happened anyways, that relation dissolved dissolved tre, like the airwalk couldn't pay their bills to the agency, and so they essentially got fired by an agency. But that also created an opportunity. Jeff, who I mentioned before, was asked to move in house to airwalk he offered me a job and I jumped at it. And yeah, at this time, airwalk was in Genesee, and I was the kind of in house graphic designer for airwalk and started working on all kinds of fun projects that were right in my wheelhouse and passion center, right, like airwalk, you know, at that time was not the iconic brand at once was but it was definitely picking up steam. They, you know, have brought on some critical players that became, you know, critical pieces of my life from that moment on, right. Mike Artz, one of them shared mutual friend of ours, right, like arts was the snowboard marketing manager at the time. My other really good friend Randy Kleiner, who was kind of the charge of snowboard boot and board development. And so that's kind of where I started as a graphic designer was like, in this really cool, kind of fading iconic skates or skate surf snow, culture, brand lifestyle brand, right. And I was embedded in the brand world in a very cool way. Marc Gutman 56:48 Yeah, then we know that, you know, Airwalk had a little bit of an untimely demise or a sudden demise. And so, you know, after that, where'd you go? Kris Fry 56:57 Well, that, that untimely demise, I lived through that. I mean, essentially, a lot of folks unfortunately got laid off. And they essentially kept 10 of us to kind of push the business into a licensing model where they were essentially licensing The, the rights of the brand out and that's where I really kind of developed a relationship with Randy Kleiner. And from there, you know, as we're working on this licensing structure became collective licensing, which is another company which owned a ton of different brands, some snowboards a ton of different kind of Lamar snowboards. They're just buying up these really iconic action sports brands and then licensing them. But that's where I met Randy, and a few other great folks, Mark Vitaly. And Jeff Bice was still there. And at this time, we were doing a ton of like consumer insights as a licensing brand. So we're trying to identify trends that were happening in the marketplace around footwear, specifically sneakers, and so part of our job was to essentially do trend reporting. So they would fly us to Miami, San Francisco, New York, LA at this time, you know, sneaker culture was this very kind of small counter subculture that was just starting to brew, right. I remember the first time I went to New York and went to a life Rivington club, it was the small, no signage, place where you bring a doorbell somebody like flies over a curtain looks you up and down, checks your sneakers. And then they let you into this like amazingly crazy boutique selling retro Jordans. And then there were some other ones that were there like Dave's quality meats and some of the iconic kind of ones. But there was a small bud of a culture that was happening on the coasts, essentially, that we were kind of influenced by and driving some of those things that were happening on the coast into these trend reports for all of our licensees in different countries to be able to say, Hey, you know, these kind of materials, these colors, this, this tone from an advertising perspective, is going to be a hit for you as you look at the whatever spring line of product and as you design for your audience, right. So that was really cool, too, because it helped me really understand, you know, taking what consumers were doing, and how they were adopting things through products and retail, and then being able to take that and then break out a bit of a crystal ball and, and use it as a way to inform other designers on how to develop product and communications. And so from that came an idea as we kept coming back to Denver, that Denver might be ready for its own sneaker boutique. And so Randy Kleiner and I left, excuse me, airwalk and we started a little boutique here in Denver. all based around sneaker culture and marketing and design. And so we started off 10th and bannock. And it was intentionally this kind of off the beaten path, like up and coming neighborhood, in the golden triangle of Denver, and we were gonna sell a limited edition sneakers and create, essentially a culture around sneakers in Denver. That was fucking awesome. It was like the best time of my life, it was amazing. You know, it was hard. from a business standpoint, like Nike didn't even have a rep in Denver at this time, right? Like I was selling the type of sneakers that we wanted to have, and to be able to sell and to build this community around. But we have some other really cool brands. And we created this really cool cultural thing in Denver, you know, and we had really awesome friendships with like minded people, and that we're also have kind of all these small businesses. And, you know, we used to throw parties, and we used to have an art gallery out front, which was really critical kind of marketing strategy for us, right, it was this idea of, well, we're part of this first Friday movement in Denver, people are out looking at art, like, let's bring this kind of lowbrow art style, to this sneaker culture. And let's expose some of our, you know, some of the Denver artists that we love to our new store, and vice versa, the audience that is following them, well know that we're here and probably find some sneakers that they want to pick up. So we used to have these incredible art shows with, you know, some really fun, awesome artists and made some insane relationships and felt like, you know, we were contributing to a new culture in Denver. And it was probably the funnest five years of my life. Marc Gutman 1:01:59 Yeah, but it also sounds like you didn't make any money or didn't make enough money. So what happened to that business? You had to wind it down? Kris Fry 1:02:09 Yeah, I mean, we actually were successful grew the business. It was, it was good. I mean, I think, you know, for Randy and I, we were paying ourselves what we needed to survive, which is enough, because, you know, we have faith in what we're doing. And eventually, it was gonna, you know, keep getting bigger, and we opened, you know, a couple different shops in different neighborhoods of Denver, specifically, I guess, I don't know what it's called now, but essentially, where the Rambo hotel is right now. Like 32nd on walnut. Anyways, that were that Billy's hot dog is that used to be the second 400 locations were there, I don't know, five years before that neighborhood fucking blew up. But it was cool. So we opened that neighborhood, we had a hole or we opened up that shop, we had a whole different style of sneakers there. And then we ended up closing down two stores and going to build a store off 15th and plat. This whole time, we were also doing, you know, tons of design work and marketing work and consumer research work, right. So essentially, our business attracted like the most exclusive social set in the Denver community. And so we had brands that would come to us and be like, Hey, can we do some, you know, product shopping with your crew? Can we ask them, like they used essentially, as a laboratory for them to gain consumer insights based on you know, this, you know, new consumer type and this new trend in limited edition sneakers and streetwear. And it was awesome. So we're doing all these insanely fun freeing projects and had this really cool business. But yeah, I mean, the economy took a dive, right? This was when the, the, I guess the ever the whole thing kind of went out. And, you know, Denver, you know, was just a beginning marketplace for this kind of, you know, limited edition culture. And so, you know, we, you know, weren't able to convince people that they needed to buy $200 pair of shoes instead of pay their rent. And so we made a choice to kind of, kind of close it down. We, you know, at this time, I think I was about to have my second kid Sam. And, you know, we didn't have an insurance, I had no adult things in my life at all outside of my children. That was the only thing that qualified me as an adult. And so Randy, and I, you know, bittersweet Lee, you know, like, I had to kind of close her down, and I would say, you know, Randy took, took the brunt of it right as the kind of head business owner and majority owner and, you know, I thank him a lot for that. I mean, but he was also he's older than me. So, you know, as my big brother, he, whatever helped guide that situation, and I believe it or not, when took a job at imager again. 30 time around. And let's see how short Do you need me to be here? Mark? tighten it up. Marc Gutman 1:05:06 Yeah, we do need to tighten it up. Yeah, you can just kind of bring me bring me up to speed. Kris Fry 1:05:11 Alright, so here's I went to integer for eight months, didn't really love the culture didn't feel like I was fueling ideas, the way I wanted to that time, I was kind of super corporate. And so at that time, you know, I got a call from my buddy Josh wills, and Steve Whittier at factory design labs. And so they asked me to come work at factory design labs, which was awesome, I was there. Six years worked on a ton of really iconic fun brands that became kind of the foundation of my portfolio and my knowledge set, specifically, you know, in the outdoor space, you know, the north face, we did a couple little projects for vans, but my main focus was working on the Oakley account. And, you know, from there, like, I went from, you know, a senior art director to a VP, creative director, and that six year span and did some really fun iconic work with some really awesome people, you know, Scott sports, and then, you know, factory less like airwalk, he kind of went and had some issues and ended up closing down. And at that point, you know, after kind of running, running, you know, six years of laughs at factory, I was toasted, and didn't want to, you know, work necessarily in advertising. And I was going to just freelance and so I freelanced in my basement for a bit, which was rewarding, but hard, and was also kind of working with capital goods as creative director on a few accounts, and that was, you know, about eight months, and I was still so burnt out, like, what happened at factory was really shitty for me, like I had to layoff a lot of people that I cared for deeply and valued. And being put in kind of this VP, creative director role, just the stress and the amount of like, things I was exposed to, from, like the pressure standpoint, at that age, and at the same time being like, Oh, well, we didn't get enough new business or whatever, we just this other thing happened, right, like having that, at that level. For me, it was difficult. And that shame thing, this actually might be where it comes full circle is really hard for me when it came to laying off my friends. You know, like, saying goodbye to people that I really respected for all the wrong reasons, right? That wasn't their fault. And it was like a weekly thing. And it became this like thing that just like, poisoned me for a little bit. I just felt so gross and guilty. And I blamed advertising for that. And so, I had always kept in good communication with Scott Bowers, who's now it's probably the VP of sales. And when he, when he called me, he was VP of sales and marketing. And he used to be a client at Oakley, and then worked at factory for a little bit on new business. And we'd always stayed in touch and and, you know, Scott reached out and said he had an opportunity to Smartwool and that was the past 10 minute version. Sorry. Well, I'm very long winded. That's where I'm at now. Marc Gutman 1:08:28 Yeah, and so what's the future look like for Kris Fry, and Smartwool? Kris Fry 1:08:34 I'm really kind of excited, I think, you know, it's Marvel as a brand started out, kind of really around the product, and, and that merino wool performance sock, and that knitting expertise and, and I think it never really kind of did some of the foundational work that brands have had the kind of their disposal now, right around consumers and design targets and, and some of those critical elements that will help them you know, drive, you know, beyond just being product and being kind of a beloved brand. And that's what I've been spending a lot of my time really on is like helping develop those tools with the team and implementing them. And I think our future is super bright. I mean, I think we are primed for taking on the next 26 years with, you know, focus and a unique set of values and really kind of just driving our purpose though, to to an audience. You know, that's, that's growing, which I think is really cool. Marc Gutman 1:09:38 And as we come to a close here, Kris, and I want you to think back to that. That version of yourself that was knocking on doors nervous that he might that he might see one of his friends and just get caught and kind of live in this double life and, you know, if if he ran into you today, do you think he'd say? Kris Fry 1:10:02 I don't know if he'd say anything. I think it'd be more of those like, competent head nods that like, quiet shared expression of like, I don't know. Like I know what's going on. You know, it's that like, it's a little bit of a wink. I don't know if he'd have anything to say. I think he just be assured moment of understanding. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Marc Gutman 1:10:31 That is Kris Fry, global creative director of Smartwool. As you know, by now, I let Kris go on and talk. But only because I thought his shares in stories were gold. I couldn't stop them. Not because I didn't have the ability. But because I didn't want to. I was so amazed by his journey. And wish we had about another two hours to talk to Kris. And I've already started talking to Kris about coming on for another episode. To get further into branding, storytelling and creative direction. Look out for that one. A big huge thank you to Kris Fry in the Smartwool team. We will link to all things Kris Fry, also known as KFry, and Smartwool in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at wildstory.com our best guests, just like Kris come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 057 - BONUS: Jay Ferracane | Storytellers Are Bullsh*t

BGBS BONUS 057: Jay Ferracane | Storytellers are Bullsh*t

Baby Got Backstory host Marc Gutman partners up with good friend and past guest Jay Ferracane on a special bonus episode about the complexity of defining yourself as a storyteller based on the video, You Are Not a Storyteller by Stefan Sagmeister.

Want to see it on video?

Quotes

[10:26] There is a fallacy that people think, “I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard, or on a wall.” And to me, it’s iterative. It’s a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of why we’ve gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we’re trying to let people know that it’s not completely defined. And it’s going to be a journey.

[13:28] What is the function of design? A lot of times it’s to communicate. It’s not to be seen, it’s not to be noticed, but it’s to communicate. It has a very important job, but is that storytelling? Is wayfinding, storytelling?

[14:58] I don’t think even all stories have reasons, because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason.

[18:26] I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, “Okay, well, it’s the sum of all these parts, it’s your visual, it’s your tagline, it’s your copy on your website. It’s all this and then now that’s your story.” But is it?

[19:13] The cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that those stories can happen in there. But that’s all the people interacting with it. So if anyone is a storyteller in a brand, it’s usually the people that support the brand. It would almost be the customer, right? It’s pretty meta, actually.

[19:49] It’s the external world. You can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn’t really matter what you think. It’s what everyone thinks about yourself.

Resources

Featured Video:

You are not a storyteller – Stefan Sagmeister

Jay Ferracane:

Instagram: @angrybovine

Facebook: Jay Ferracane

LinkedIn: Jay Ferracane

BGBS Episode 41: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer

Podcast Transcript

Jay Ferracane 0:02
And that was the only thing I can start to think of is, “Is that why we’ve gotten into this thing called storytelling? Because we’re trying to let people know that it’s not completely defined and it’s going to be a journey. And so let’s call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don’t know that—I’ve been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so because, well, you and I both know the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap, at least it’s not in my world. It’s a lot of back and forth and and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me I’ve always wondered is, has storytelling become this thing because people are trying to explain like, you’re gonna have to get involved in a narrative? I don’t know. Maybe that’s where it comes from.

Marc Gutman 0:48
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. Hey, I’m Marc Gutman, and today is a little bit of a bonus episode of Baby Got Backstory.

My good friend, Jay Ferracane and I talk a lot about different branding topics, marketing topics all offline when we’re just hanging out. And one of the things that we got written a lot about was storytelling, and kind of this craze about what’s happening with storytelling, and everyone’s calling themselves a storyteller. And then Jay turned me on to this amazing video about two minutes. And we’re gonna link to the audio in this episode from a famous designer named Stefan Sagmeister. And after that little video, and Stefan sets the stage, Jay and I talk about what it means to be a storyteller. And I hope you liked this episode. It’s a little bit of a bonus talking about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart.

I am here with Jay Ferracane celebrated designer, creative and all around awesome dude. And recently, Jay and I were doing some work together and Jay turned me on to this idea or this this video of Stefan Sagmeister that’s titled You Are Not a Storyteller. Before we get into that, because I just I love this video, we’re gonna watch it and then talk about it cuz I think it’s really relevant, two minutes of extreme relevance, Jay, who is Stefan Sagmeister? Because I don’t even know like I, I watched this video and I’m like, Who is this guy?

Jay Ferracane 2:41
Well, Stefan Sagmeister is is a designer, I think Austrian born worked out in New York for years. But I think his real claim to fame was that he kind of made designers realize every once in a while that you should take some time for yourself. So he used to do these, these sabbaticals. And then for like a year, he would just do work that tried to make him happy and resulted in like a body of work about being happy. But his work was really widely regarded. I think he’s won like a Grammy for some, you know, album design stuff. And I was always appreciative of his design even. And I’ve known about him for a really long time. You know, he I think he’s in the the world of like, the pentagrams, and stuff like that of the world.

But Stefan Sagmeister, and his partner, Jessica Walsh, who now runs her own outfit, she still continues, but I think Stefan does more of this kind of like, personal work kind of stuff. But pre that that was this video that I was sharing with you. Because, I mean, we’ve all heard it in conversations that, you know, everyone wants to be a storyteller. And, you know, what’s that really mean? And should you say it, and I look at myself as such a, I don’t know, like a tradesperson in design that. I’ve never considered myself a storyteller but it did me a stroke, it struck a chord with me and why people say that, and a lot of times, I think as a designer, my job is to unpack what people are really trying to say, or what’s the reason behind that. And I have some thoughts on why people get into the storytelling, if they use storytelling as a way to describe their process or what they’re attempting to do. So.

Marc Gutman 4:11
Yeah, it’s such an interesting topic to me. I mean, remember, several years ago, you’d say you’re a storyteller, and people thought that was all cool. And they’d be like, tell me about that. And, and, and it meant different things. And it still does to different people. But now it’s like, literally, I think every single website I hit says, We are storytellers, everybody’s Instagram says I’m a storyteller, and everyone wants to be a storyteller. And I think there’s a lot of confusion around storytelling. And it’s just an interesting topic to me.

I don’t know if I’ve landed I firmly believe that as—the way we communicate as humans is through stories, does that make everyone a storyteller? Especially when it comes to business, right? Like, is everyone a storyteller? And so what I want to do is I want to go ahead and share this video. It’s two minutes, and we’ll go ahead and watch it together. And then we can talk about it.

Jay Ferracane 5:02
Sure.

Stefan Sagmeister 5:09
Hi, my name is Stefan sagmeister, a Austrian graphic designer who lives in New York City. I’m actually quite critical of the storytelling thing. I think that the older storytellers are not storytelling. Recently, I read an interview with somebody who designs rollercoasters, and he referred to himself as a storyteller.

No fuckhead you are not a storyteller. You’re a rollercoaster designer. And that’s fantastic and more power to you, but why would you want to be a storyteller if you design rollercoasters? Or if you have storytelling that the story that you tell is bullshit. It’s like this little Itsy Bitsy little thing. Yes, you go through the space and guess you see other spaceships and yes, that’s the story? That’s a fucking bullshit story. That’s boring.

People who actually tell stories, meaning people who write novels and make feature films don’t see themselves as storytellers it’s all the people who are not storytellers, who kind of for strange reasons, because it’s in the air, suddenly, now want to be storytellers. There is this fallacy out there. I don’t think that I fell in fell for it. But somehow, maybe unconsciously I did, you know that you sort of feel “I’ve seen a lot of films, so I must be able to do one.” And of course, this is the most stupid thought ever, you know, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve watched the Philharmonic. That’s why I am a virtuoso violin player.” You know, I’m not, even though I’ve watched a lot of philharmonic concerts, I think by now in our space, meaning in the space of design, it sort of took on the mantle of bullshit. You know, now everybody’s a storyteller.

Marc Gutman 7:04
Just letting it play out there a little bit, so we can give proper credit to those that published it. But Wow, carries on the mantle of bullshit.

Jay Ferracane 7:16
So much to unpack right?

Marc Gutman 7:18
So much to unpack. So the mantle of bullshit. I mean, I was giggling and laughing during that, and I certainly saw that you were I mean, like, What are your first thoughts is like, is—

Jay Ferracane 7:27
Well, I remember the first time I saw it, number one, you know, I can’t pull off the sport coat. And, and, and and impression like he was and I was so genuinely entertained by the fact that he was being so honest, and calling out people on their stuff. And I guess where I came back to, when I when I first sat with it, I thought I probably the first time I saw it just really just thought it was funny. And like, man, did he wake up and have some shitty coffee or something that morning? And, and then, you know, the more I thought about it, and I saw, I think I saw that thing years ago. And and but I’ve thought about a lot since then. And I’ve tried to figure out, you know, why? Why has the industry taken on this mantle of, of bullshit?

Number one, there’s so many, I think there’s so many options for clients out there today, that everyone’s got to wrap themselves up in something, right, we all kind of do that take on a persona or two. But I think that this storytellers thing was a phenomenon that came out of not unlike, like, I purposely went against the grain when people were there. For some reason, there was this weird fear of like calling yourself a designer, I’m a graphic designer, that’s what I was formally trained to do. And I think that makes me a pretty capable communicator. But it does give me a position of where I enter communication from.

And I think storytelling maybe puts this this number one, it puts a bigger umbrella on it and allows people to be more capable, or at least position themselves that they are more capable, because they don’t have to really describe what their entry point is and where they’re coming from. But to the point of, you know, when he was saying, this, this fact about like, I can, you know, if I watch an opera, am I a virtuoso? there is so much information out there in education today that you can watch a video and go out and tell people, you know, something. So I think that what he was probably sensing was some frustration and i would i wonder, actually, how, how close this was to him thinking about, you know, leaving professional practice, because he maybe he was just like fed up at that point. Because that dude, and his outfit did really just great, creative, very original, graphic design. And, you know, maybe he was just, like, frustrated at a point like, I’m not going to be, you know, shielded about this anymore. The more I thought about it, though, and it was funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this and the phenomena of and there are some outfits that work this way, but the phenomenon that work, like a project is something that might have been called the story to be told. You know, in the Stefan Sagmeister, I hate you world. I think there’s this notion to that a lot of people think that the project is this, it’s dropped on the table, and this is one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about knowing you and I were going to get together and talk about this, but does this when you start to say, Hey I’m a storyteller, Is that a way to prepare people for the reality of a design process?

And I call it a design process, going through a logo, there is a fallacy that people think I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard or on a wall. And to me, it’s iterative. It’s a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of. Is that why we’ve gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we’re trying to let people know that it’s not completely defined. And it’s going to be a journey. And so let’s call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don’t know that I’ve been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so. Because, well, you and I both know, the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap. At least it’s not in my world. It’s a lot of back and forth. And, and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me, I’ve always wondered is has storytelling become this thing? Because people are trying to explain, like, you’re gonna have to get involved in a narrative. I don’t know. Maybe that’s where it comes from. But, yeah.

Marc Gutman 11:20
Yeah, it’s, it’s so I mean, so much to unpack on top of your unpacking. Right? Like, there’s, you know, what resonates for me out of that so much as when he talks about his Hey I go to the Philharmonic, and does that mean I can be, you know, a great violin player? Because very, you know, early in my career, I was a story editor in the movie business and a core part of that is just taking in scripts. And I could never understand why everybody thought they had a story worth telling. Everyone thought that their life story was worthy of a movie. I think it’s primarily because of what Stefan Sagmeister says is that now went to the movies, they get it, they’re like, Hey, I can make this into a movie. And I was like, very clearly, no. No one, like, not a single one that came in was worth reading. They weren’t interesting to me.

And much like a classic pianist or something like that I was trained in classic cinematic storytelling, which means that there’s a three act structure beginning middle and an end, a likeable, or at least, intriguing hero that has obstacles in their way and has to move from something they want towards something they need, all these things. It has a very strict definition. And I remember when I got into branding and marketing, and I had the same reaction as Sagmeister, I was like, This is crazy. Everyone’s calling themselves a storyteller. These are not stories, and I was really myopic on my definition of story.

Now I’ve since come off that and I learned, I’ve learned that storytelling has this different sort of definition. And I think, when I heard you speaking, that’s really what I started kind of going through, like, what are these definitions of story versus storytelling versus narrative? I mean, is the roller coaster designer really trying to tell a story? Are they trying to communicate, communicate anything other than thrill and excitement? And, you know, things like that? So? Yeah, I mean, and you and I have had this conversation offline, so much about just what is the purpose? What is the job? What is the function of design, and a lot of times it’s to communicate, and it’s not to be seen, it’s not to be noticed, but it’s to communicate as a very important job. It is that storytelling? like is Wayfinding storytelling?

Jay Ferracane 13:44
Right.

Marc Gutman 13:45
You know, like, all the great Helvetica stuff we love from, you know, the New York subway and I mean, and then recent MTA rebrand, I mean, that stuff is like that telling a story? Is that storytelling?

Jay Ferracane 13:58
And and that’s, that’s totally where I think it gets it screwed up. And not to belabor the point about titles, but like, you know, storytellers, if that’s going to be the thing that somebody wants to put a label on him, I do think it comes back to this thing that, you know, design is about—it’s, it’s a what, yeah, I’ve told you this quote that if you can design a city, you can design a spoon, or if you can design a spoon, you can design a city, meaning like, hey, once you understand that, that your job is is to do this thing. It doesn’t matter what medium it gets put into it. And still to this day, it kind of trips me up to hear a designer say I’m a UI designer. So okay, so if your friend said, Hey, I need a T shirt, you wouldn’t make a T shirt? You know? Like, I’m not a T shirt designer, but I designed lots of T shirts. And I’m a graphic designer I’ve done to design a ton of UI and I poked my own eye out through my glasses if I had to only design UI and to me, I guess it comes back to this notion that design’s job is to just put reason into things.

And I don’t think even all stories have really because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. But I remember seeing this talk if we’re going to kind of Sagmeister was an early design hero of mine and so was David Carson. And I saw David Carson do a talk once about it was, oh, he showed this layout he did for a conference he got asked to attend, it was called the bravery of design or something like that. And it was the image was his father, who was a test pilot getting into an aircraft. And he goes, and he basically put that up, because he goes, what we do isn’t dangerous. He goes, unless I’m designing like, pharmaceutical packaging, or something where if somebody reads it wrong, there’s a problem, right? And he was saying that that’s fucking dangerous.

And he pointed at his, you know, his dad in the 60s, or whenever it was getting into a, into an aircraft. And, and I do, I just think that there’s something that I think people feel like they need to inflate around what it is they’re really doing. And that’s why I really do look at what I do, it’s much more like a trade than it is art, for sure. And even the way I approach it, it’s like, I’m going to show you some things, but you’re going to react to them, and then I’m going to catalyze those back into it so it becomes the things you need it to be. It’s not about me. And so a lot of times storytelling is is like, your take on something to it has a very emotional bent. And, you know, that’s a major difference between art and design is that you know, art is really about you trying to express some personal feeling or emotion where design should really really—it’s it can have expression in it, but it’s really about communicating ideas or information.

And so storytelling does, it gets cloudy, but maybe it is a safety mechanism for people to just shield up like, Hey, I don’t–I was a marketing manager a long time ago, but all of a sudden, here I am, you know, trying to help you rebuild your brand. And if I tell you that where I came from, that’s it. That’s a hard entry point, right?

Marc Gutman 16:55
This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn’t a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

And you and I have collaborated recently on a bunch of identities. I mean, those are really stories. You know, when I think about them, they’re like, you know, there’s we want certain emotions, we want you to think of certain categories. We want you to see this and say, Okay, this is a tool brand, for example.

We’re not really telling stories within that work, and I wouldn’t, and I think that’s okay, like, we don’t have to like that’s not the intention or the purpose. And I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, Okay, well, it’s the sum of all these parts, it’s your visual, it’s your tagline. It’s, you know, your, you know, your copy on your website, it’s, it’s all these and then now your that’s your story, you know, but like, is it?

Jay Ferracane 18:45
I think it’s and it’s funny, too, because one thing that I try and get really clear with my clients that when I first start working with them is is that there’s a difference between branding and brand. So brand and branding are two totally separate things.

Brand is the promise you want to you know, bring to the world. Branding is the signals that get them there. And you know, in this in this case of like, you know, when we work on identity and stuff like that, I think we’re we’re way more in the signal building camp. Because the I that the cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding that will do that is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that the stories can happen in there. But that’s all the people interacting with it. So if anyone this is interesting that we’ve talked this out a little bit, but if anyone is a storyteller and a brand, it’s usually the people that support the brand, it would almost be the customer, right? It’s pretty meta, actually.

Marc Gutman 19:40
So there’s the old adage, a brand isn’t what you say it is. It’s what they say it is. And I think that so

Jay Ferracane 19:45
Then who’s the storyteller in that?

Marc Gutman 19:47
Yeah, the customer, right? It’s the external world. I mean, you know, you can, it’s kind of like, you know, you can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn’t really matter.

Jay Ferracane 19:57
Right.

Marc Gutman 19:58
That’s what everyone thinks, you know, about yourself.

Jay Ferracane 20:01
Yeah, no. And that’s it’s totally Yeah. Because I, yeah, you know, for along the line of storytellers is a word that I never got, and it’s my brushes with the advertising world is, is a lot of times, people who make stuff just generally get thrown into this category as creatives. And I think that’s kind of a weird label too, because I think that an art director is a, it’s a role and a skill set that is different than a designer sometimes or graphic designer, right. And it could be different than a set designer, and it could be different than, and so but in certain worlds, all of that gets stuffed in too.

And so I think whenever these labels come out, it’s just a way, it’s just a way for people to soften, or create a softer landing place for you to understand where you come from. And well, you know, my, my, my love of music and the background and the things that I grew up around was like early punk rock, especially DC kind of stuff. And in those days, you didn’t go to the, you didn’t even go to tower, you would have friends that gave you like cassettes that were made off of cassettes that were made off of two other cassettes.

And I remember every once while people would like hold the microphone to like the TV and record stuff into it, I still, to this day, don’t know where this soundbite came, but it’s this very posture-y kind of voice it was in between one of the songs that was on this mixtape given to me. And the guy says, I have news for the world. And he says new wave is dead. And it says new wave is just a way of saying that you like any names, all these like sub genres of music that was extremely not popular at that point. And then he ended it with like, these categorizations of all these music types, that people wedged them under a new wave. And he said, it’s because you don’t want to get kicked out with a party because people won’t give you drugs anymore. And so like, but it was kind of funny, because if I if I think about that, that’s probably this defense mechanism that all humans are do a lot.

They they put some falsehood around themselves, or at least a softening device. So that either you can’t really assign what it is and or you may be reassign it, and it’s it’s a funny, it’s a funny thing. And and I think that’s that’s, you know, not me ever asking, you know, Stefan about this, but like, I would bet his intent is is call it what it would call it what it is, and just be authentic about it. Because to me, that’s the best form of graphic design and is when you can, like, make the brand with the things that it really is. And that’s not necessarily storytelling. To me. That’s this very, we were just talking about this before this call started ingredients and parts.

Marc Gutman 22:40
Yeah, totally. And like, it’s just, it seems like this catch all, you know, being a storyteller, this thing that is just like, you don’t know how to describe yourself, you don’t know what it is you think, you know, and I just recently posted on Instagram a carousel that was called stop copying your competitors. And and it’s because we all don’t know, you know what to say about ourselves. And we don’t know how to differentiate, we don’t know what category we want to be special. Right? And, and I’m no different. I want to be special, but we’re not, you know, we need to understand—

Jay Ferracane 23:13
You’re special!

Marc Gutman 23:14
Oh, Go on Go on. But you have this idea that like everyone’s a storyteller is just crazy to me. And, and I do think I think the roller coaster example that he uses is of the extreme, but I think it comes into all sorts of things like you know, even you know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of functions in marketing today where you know, people are claiming to be storytellers like in paid media. You’re not a storyteller. You’re an advertiser, you know?

Jay Ferracane 23:40
Yeah, and that’s fine, though. That is great

Marc Gutman 23:42
And you should—Yeah, and you know and sometimes you use storytelling as a mechanism or a tool to to get your advertising across, but that doesn’t make you a storyteller per se and I just think it’s interesting that we all and it’s in it’s become this thing that like, like people just want to be that like it’s like we use that as our brand and it’s almost become that I think you might even be in the person that sent me the bland book which was a mock site of like what branding and and and all these agencies have become and storyteller would be front and center right there you know, right on the—we are visionary storytellers looking to change the world you know one brand at a time.

Jay Ferracane 24:24
Well and i think that’s that’s why, let’s just call it that well “the creatives” to use a big loose term the creative industry every you know, so often has to kind of go find its new catch all phrase to that everyone can kind of like over the next five years reassigns themselves to and then we feel that we shed that again and you become something else. But it is it just an interesting phenomenon that people get into these traps where they’re like I’m worried about telling you what I am and in the in the roller coaster guys sense. It I found myself drifting off thinking about that. That, you know, like maybe what he does is so complex that if he told somebody what he really did, you know, maybe it’s more of a mathematician than anything because you got to figure out a lot of gravity shit, I bet. And they’re right. You know, it’s like gravity and like, what if there’s a fat guy in a little guy in the in the car together? What’s that gonna do to the story? Like,

Marc Gutman 25:19
How hard is it to say I’m a kick ass roller coasters? Like, like, like, like, everyone understands that.

Jay Ferracane 25:25
But it are people comfortable doing that, too? Like, I think that’s that’s what it comes down to. So I don’t know, it has to be something about the the palatability of the world you’re trying to market to. Oh, man, this is resonating. People want to hear story. So I’m going to be set tell people I’m that, right. So yeah, it’s, I don’t know, I guess it was a delight, especially when I saw that because I think I personally would just really rather designers be designers and communicators. That’s that’s probably the better term.

I would rather people say I’m a communicator than a storyteller because that is kind of what we do. I think it’s, it can be super boring shit sometimes and not that there’s not boring stories, but at least it has less of a mantle around it too

less of a mantle of bullshit.

And he has that. That [inaudible] and like, [inaudible]. Like there was a [inaudible] in there for a second.

Marc Gutman 26:21
Angry. Yeah, you know?

Jay Ferracane 26:23
Yeah.

Marc Gutman 26:23
I love it. Well, Jay, this was awesome. I just enjoyed talking about this topic with you. It’s it fascinates me. And like I said, Thank you for turning me on to that video. Like kind of blew my mind and was just really cool to chat about it.

Jay Ferracane 26:37
No, I am, I’m the king of derailing your day with Oh, yeah, on that topic here. Watch these six videos, you know me. So you’re welcome. And I’m glad to continue to distract you on a daily basis.

Marc Gutman 26:48
Thank you. I’m looking forward to my next distraction.

And that is Jay Ferracane. And that was us talking about storytelling, all based on the Stefan Sagmeister video. I love that he kind of goes on that rant about someone who designs roller coasters as a storyteller, but I think you’ll agree it’s become really, really confusing. I hope you like this little bonus episode. And if you want more of this type of content, drop us a line at wildstorm.com and let us know that you like these type of episodes just as much as of our traditional interview.

Well, that’s the show for today. Let me know if you have any questions. I’m Marc Gutman, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS. See you’ll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can’t deny.

BGBS 056: Tamer Kattan | Comedian | Listening Is the Cost of Being Heard

BGBS 056: Tamer Kattan | Comedian | Listening Is the Cost of Being Heard

Tamer Kattan is an internationally touring stand-up comedian who performed for U.N. Troops in Afghanistan, for protestors at the American University in Cairo (during the Egyptian revolution) and for the really dangerous crowds at The Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. He’s won many comedy accolades over the years, has TV & radio credits on the BBC, SkyTV, Fox, HULU, Netflix, Amazon, and truTV, and was even featured on Seth Rogen’s Hilarity for charity event with Todd Glass and Hannibal Bures. Tamer is currently the co-host of Nice2MarryU on Youtube and you’ll learn in this episode that before it all, he began his career in advertising and worked with past guest Shawn Parr from Bulldog Drummond as a brand strategist.

Tamer is an Egyptian-born American with a Muslim dad and a Jewish mom. Always bearing many identities, Tamer has considered himself a “hyphenate” and finds solace in being neither part this nor part that, but a complete thing in the middle—although it wasn’t always that way. Growing up in Southern California, Tamer needed to address how people treated him for being different, and comedy was his tool to do so.

He finds the connection between comedy and branding is human nature, which can only be tapped through aggressive listening and captivating storytelling. That same humanity and emotional intelligence are what motivated Tamer to write his resume on a foam butt, pop it in a donut box, and rocket launch his advertising career until he found his way back to his roots in comedy. Above all, Tamer teaches us the power of making other’s feel heard, which bears the question, how will you listen more aggressively today?

Quotes

[10:59] I’m not American. I’m not Egyptian. I’m this thing in the middle, and being an Egyptian American is very much another thing. It’s a thing into its own. I’m not half of this or half of that, I’m a complete thing, and it happens to consist of two halves.

[14:51] It’s not like I wanted to be funny, it was just a thing that happened. Inevitably it ended up becoming a tool against bullies, but I didn’t realize it until this kid came up to me—it was a bully that bullied me every day—and finally, one day, I had enough and I started making fun of him because he had pretty big ears. Apparently, he was sensitive because he said, “Hey, if you stop making fun of me, I’ll stop beating you up.” And that’s why I went, “Oh, wow. Comedy is powerful. It can be powerful.”

[49:36] I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen aggressively until I hear things and see things that other people don’t see. Like in my comedy, the thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh, it’s when people say “Oh my god, that’s so true.” That’s my favorite.

[54:07] I think that’s what it means to be a human being. We’re parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again.

Resources

LinkedIn: Tamer Kattan

Instagram: @tamerkat

Twitter: Tamer Kattan

Youtube: Tamer Kattan – Nice2MarryU

Website: tamerkattan.com

Podcast Transcript

Tamer Kattan 0:02
I wrote a resume through a typical template. And I looked at it I’m like, This is absurd. I just have skate shop and surf shop experience. Why am I even setting this to an ad agency? So I said, Well, if I can’t show my creativity through the experience that I’ve had, maybe I can shoot show it, and how I express that experience.

So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist and make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly senior willing to work as a software internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1 it was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year.

Marc Gutman 1:00
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby got backstory on how an Egyptian American immigrant climbed to the top of the advertising agency world only to quit 40 become a successful stand up comedian. Today we are talking with Tamer Kattan.

Before we get into my conversation with Tamer, If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify and apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend the show to at least one friend you think will like it, and maybe one enemy will like it too. And cross the aisle in a bipartisan effort to bring all podcast listeners together via the Baby Got Back story podcast.

Today’s guest is Tamer Kattan. Tamer is an internationally touring stand up comedian, who performed for UN troops in Afghanistan for protesters at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian revolution. And for the really dangerous crowds at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland, where he received three four star reviews from international press. He was most recently featured on Seth Rogan’s hilarity for charity event with pod glass and Hannibal Burress won the World Series of comedy, comedy knockout on true TV, best of fest at big pine Comedy Festival, and three weeks later won the Portland Comedy Festival. He is the co host of Nice 2 Marry You YouTube, and has TV and radio credits on the BBC and sky TV in the UK as well as in the US on Fox, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, and Tru TV.

He’s also worked as a strategist at some of the world’s biggest and best advertising agencies in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York. And what you’re going to hear today is there’s probably not a whole lot that Tamer really can’t do or isn’t good at. And I was connected to Tamer via a previous guest on the show, Shawn Parr of Bulldog Drummond, and no disrespect to Shawn, but I wasn’t clear on why he thought I should talk with Tamer. Well, Shawn’s a smart guy, and Tamer, Well, I’m going to save that for today’s show. What I will say is I’m crushing hard on Tamer. He’s smart. He’s worked at the coolest agencies on the biggest brands in the world. He left it all behind to pursue what really made him happy. Stand up comedy. Tamer drops all sorts of insight and wisdom in this episode, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Oh, it makes sure to listen for the your dog is sticky story. I loved it. I’m excited to introduce you to Tamer Kattan. And this is his story.

I am here with Tamer Kattan. Tamer actually happens to be in Spain and I’m in Colorado and even though we’ve been doing this for decades, at this point talking over the internet, I’m still amazed that this works in real time and that we can do this it’s like still blows my mind, but that’s true. Tambor, welcome. Welcome to the Baby Got Backstory Podcast. It’s, it’s great to have you.

Tamer Kattan 4:45
Thanks for having me, Marc. It’s nice to be chatting with you. It’s nice to see an American face.

Marc Gutman 4:51
Sometimes, right. It’s been a tough week here in America, so maybe, maybe not so much. But at tamp. Tamer is an internationally touring stand up comedian. He’s perfect. For him at the UN, with before troops in Afghanistan, for protesters at the American University in Cairo during the Egyptian revolution, we’d love to hear about that. And that’s not how we know each other. You know, I’m a big fan of comedy.

I love comedy, but I was actually introduced to Tamer through a, another brand professional. Shawn Parr over at Bulldog Drummond. And interesting enough, Tamer got his start as a brand strategist. And so, Tamed, I’d love to get into that a little bit. But like, more than that, I want to know, you know, when you were young was little Tamer, were you like, was it like almost like the two you know, the two little angel devil on the shoulder was like one of brand strategists and one a stand up comedian or like, would you want to be when you were a kid? Like, like, like, did you do you think you’d end up here?

Tamer Kattan 5:53
Oh, man. Bipolar would be easy. I mean, I’ve been I’ve been divided for a long time. And I have a Muslim dad, a Jewish mom. So like, the whole I like, I’ve always just been a mixed up kid, I had people telling me I wasn’t a real American, I wasn’t really Egyptian. I wasn’t a real Jew, I wasn’t a real Muslim. So like, I’ve always kind of been a hyphenate as a type. As a person. I’ve always been comfortable being a hyphenate. And for me, quite honestly, like when I look at, I’ve always tried to sort of anticipate the direction of things. And I think even when I first got into advertising, I didn’t get into it, because I loved commercials. I got into it, because I love storytelling.

And I see the big umbrella is storytelling, and I see brand strategy and, and comedy, both fitting under that larger umbrella. So for me, it wasn’t that different. You know, it’s like being a wrestler that becomes a UFC fighter. It sounds like two different things, but they’re kind of related.

Marc Gutman 6:48
Well, absolutely. And I agree but I think you articulated very well that, that storytelling is a broad umbrella. I think a lot of people run around talking about being storytellers. But you still have to have that specific discipline, whether it be advertising, whether you’re telling stories through comedy, whether you’re telling, you know, different channels. And so I know myself, I made that mistake early in my career, I was run around telling everyone I was a storyteller because I was but then it becomes really hard to find work because no one knows where you fit.

But where did you grow up? Like what was what was childhood like? For you mentioned that you had this bifurcated family? And you never really fit what we’re we’re where’d you grow up? And what was that like? Like what your parents do and stuff like that?

Tamer Kattan 7:34
Um, well, we were in Egypt when I was a kid. And my dad left first and he came to America, he went to Southern California, Santa Monica. Although initially, it was easier to get a visa in colder weather states back then. So he originally got a visa for Utah. And, and then we were in Egypt. And you know, we’re talking about technology right now, how blown away we are, about how great it is to be able to speak across the world. And when my dad first immigrated to the States, I had these very vivid picture of my mom tracing my hand on a piece of paper to show my dad how fast I was growing. Like it was, it was wild. And it was also a strange thing, because at a very early age, it was kind of the reverse of an animal priming on something you know, like when it when a cat gets adopted by a Labrador. It was like I got unglued from my dad for almost a year and a half where he was in the States. And my mom and I were in Cairo.

So I was I was born in Cairo. And when I was around six, my dad left the states. And at eight years old, we reconnected in Los Angeles. So I grew up for the most part in Southern California. And the first place we live was a very Mexican neighborhood in East LA, which was the best place an immigrant could start in America, because they were very accepting. And they said, Hey, you look like one of us. You got pyramids, we got pyramids, youre in.

They accepted me. And then from there, you know, it’s really strange being an immigrant, sometimes you get to experience society in a different way. Because you you start at maybe a lower socio economic class than you’re used to in your home country. And then you kind of move pretty quickly, vertically up sometimes, maybe, maybe do more jumps than you would have if you’re a native born person. So we had a pretty interesting view of America at a pretty early age.

Marc Gutman 9:27
Yeah. And was it all positive? Or was it tough? I mean, one thing I can share with you is, you know, I grew up in Detroit, and I have a Jewish father and a Christian mother and, and I had a lot of those same challenges that I never really felt like I fit and I never felt like I was really accepted by the Jewish side of the family or the other side. And, you know, you know, I was always kind of using like shape shifting a little bit and code shifting code switching as I say to my advantage, but there’s also a lot of disadvantages.

I remember being like I’m not Jewish and like hiding, you know, like From fights and stuff like that, and but that, you know, that didn’t matter to the to the the kids that wanted to brand me with that label. I mean, was it hard for you like being irreverent and also just trying to figure out what your identity was? I mean, I think it’s cool now to be like, yeah, I’m like, that was split. That was awesome. But at the time was a hard.

Tamer Kattan 10:20
Oh, definitely. I mean, it was I had so many times I remember uttering the phrase, I just want to be normal, which is like, as an adult, that’s the last thing I want to be. But as a kid, I just kept feeling like I’m, I’m abnormal, you know, even even the word they give immigrants is alien. So I always felt like I was kind of floating in space, you know, but just like, you know, emotions are just like physical pain, sometimes, like it hurt. I think I was.

So I took so much emotional abuse, that I finally built a callus, which I welcomed with open arms. And once that callus was there, then I learned to embrace the fact that Yeah, I’m not American, I’m not Egyptian, I’m this thing in the middle. And being an Egyptian American is very much another thing, it’s a thing into its own. I’m not half of this, or half of that I’m a complete thing. And it happens to consist of two halves. But it took it took a lot of a lot of crappy things heard a lot of racism a lot of, and not just from Americans, from other Egyptians, from Jewish people from from everybody. So it was a it was a wild experience.

Marc Gutman 11:28
Yeah, I mean, I remember as a kid coming home crying because I just I wanted to have a communion Catholic communion. Because that’s what all the kids, the kids are, do. And I was like, why can’t I have? Besides, I was like, thinking a lot of money. That’s cool. But like, really more than that, like, I was like, they’re all doing it. And I want to be like, just those normal kids. And so I can totally relate where you’re coming from.

Did you like was there a big Egyptian community in Southern California? Were there I mean, I, I spent a lot of time, you know, I lived in Santa Monica for a while and things like that. And I just don’t, I don’t ever remember it. So like, and I could just be because it’s just, you know, something I’m not looking for. But was there? Was there a big Egyptian community when you were there?

Tamer Kattan 12:10
I think there is. But it’s funny, you know, a lot of these communities start to form, especially these immigrant communities start to form and they’re usually based on spirituality or religion. And so there’s definitely an Egyptian community, but it’s kind of forked. And on one side, there’s the Muslim Egyptians all kind of have the mosque as sort of the home base of their social life. And then you’ve got the Coptic Christian Egyptians. And for us, we didn’t fit into either. So even though I was aware of an Egyptian community, I was very much an outsider to it.

Marc Gutman 12:44
And so what was life like for you as a kid in terms of school, like were you into? Did you know from an early age that you were going to be a storyteller of sorts?

Tamer Kattan 12:56
You know, it’s funny that you say that, because it’s not it wasn’t conscious at all. I, you know, I spend a lot of time alone. And, you know, back in the 80s, it was really cool. You know, I was a latchkey kid, I was one of those kids, you know, that had the house key tied, you know, the string around my neck, and my parents both had to work two jobs. So there were times where I’d wake up in the morning, and to an empty house. And I’d come home from school to an empty house. So I had a lot of time just to think. And I think that’s that was the foundation of becoming a storyteller was just having a lot of time to yourself and to thinking.

I really got into Dungeons and Dragons at a really early age. So my, my, my vocabulary of weapons, and monsters and mythology grew. And when we started writing, for this creative writing class that I had in elementary school, the teacher called my parents at home and said, Hey, I need you to come in, we have to talk about Tamer and about the stories that he’s writing. And they came in, they say, and he said, Look, I love these stories, but they’re a little bit violent. And I’m, I’m either gonna see his name on the front of a paper at the end of a movie, and I wanted to make sure that it’s the ladder. And but he didn’t know about Dungeons and Dragons, and that’s why I knew so much about weapons is because that’s silly game.

Marc Gutman 14:11
You knew everything and nothing about weapons, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. about what you do from Dungeons and Dragons. But were you a funny kid. At that time? Are you? Are you leaning into humor? And you know, and I’ve talked to a lot of people and who either have tough childhoods, they don’t feel like they fit they’ve been maybe sometimes bullied. And humor is typically the defense mechanism. It’s what they use to Yeah, you know, keep people on their heels or just survive a bit. I mean, it was that it was that something for you? Or was it something different?

Tamer Kattan 14:41
Yeah, in a very big way. And again, it’s just so bizarre because because I am kind of a control freak, I think at times, and there was no design. It’s not like I wanted to be funny. I desire to be fun. It was just a thing that happened. It was just something where they said oh, you’re just like your grandfather and Inevitably it ended up becoming a tool against bullies. And but I didn’t realize it until this one day when this kid came up to me. And he said, it was a bully that bullied me every day. And finally, one day, I had enough and I started making fun of him because he had pretty big ears. And, and apparently, he was sensitive because he said, Hey, if you stop making fun of me, I’ll stop beating you up. And that’s why I went, Oh, wow. comedy is powerful. It can be powerful.

Marc Gutman 15:25
words have power. And so yeah, I mean, were you doing stand up routines in high school? Like, were you at the talent show? And are we getting into this early?

Tamer Kattan 15:34
No, not at all, we had this really interesting thing. There’s a, there’s actually Detroit made this famous and Eminems movie Eight Mile, battle rapping came from a thing called playing the dozens, and playing the dozens just you just make fun of each other, back and forth. And it came from slavery, when they used to sell slaves one at a time unless there was something wrong with them. And then they would sell them as a dozen in a cage. And those dozen slaves would make fun of each other. And that’s where all those jokes like your mama jokes came from. And like, it was really harsh, almost like, you know, even if we look at roast battles like that, that environment was the foundation for that.

So in the neighborhood I lived in, we had Hello cat, there’s my cat in the background. We had, we played the dozens. So it was a pretty poor school. And we had a 10 minute break before lunch called nutrition, where the government would give you milk and trail mix. And I was always just people would jump on me during those sessions and start just making fun of me and sort of attack me with words. And you know, just like with any other type of battling, the more you get beat up, the better you get on the offensive. So I just naturally became pretty good with words.

Marc Gutman 16:49
And were you a good student?

Tamer Kattan 16:50
I was Yeah, it was funny. There was some cultural things I had to I had to stop doing like I was in the habit of raising my hand to answer a question then standing up to answer it. And that usually ended with me getting beat up at recess.

Marc Gutman 17:06
You learn quickly not to do that. And then So, I mean, what did your parents hoped for you? I mean, they’re working their butts off. They’re doing two jobs. They’re immigrants. I mean, I have to imagine, it’s a bit of that American dream that they’re hoping for a better life. They’re hoping for something great for you. And what was that?

Tamer Kattan 17:25
Well, for it’s really interesting, because my dad, because he was the one who felt like he was absorbing most of the risk. And the one who probably out of all of us, he’s probably the one that felt like he was, you know, walking a wire without a net, because we were in America without a family without friends. And I think he felt like you always had to have a job. And that job was what protected you from homelessness or, like a terrible life. So he didn’t care what I liked. He just wanted me to do what was safe. So in his mind, the ultimate job was doctor, lawyer, engineer that that was the three but I didn’t want to do any of those things. I I ended up going to university for kinesiology for it, I didn’t even know what I was going to do with it. I was like a strength and conditioning coach or something like that. But I basically took those classes just so my dad thought that I was doing pre med, but I wasn’t. And it was my my junior year where I, I interned as a strength and conditioning coach, and I’m like, Oh my god, I’m not gonna wear these polyester shorts for the rest of my life. And a friend of mine said, Hey, you know, I’m a marketing major. And this ad agency is coming to Cal Poly, and they’re going to show their commercial real. And I heard that it’s really great. These are the guys that invented the Energizer Bunny. And so I’m like, Oh, that sounds cool.

So I went with him. I watched the reel, and there was so many funny commercials. And you know, and she kept talking about the woman, Nancy Ali, I still remember her name. so crazy. Nancy Ali said that comedy was most disruptive form of storytelling, because you didn’t need to know anything. You could watch a stranger fall down. And it’s funny. But if you’re trying to do a drama in 15 seconds, good luck. So I watched that reel. And I was impressed by it. And I thought to myself, Oh, wow, here’s where to get paid for being funny. And I went up to her and I spoke to her and I said, you know, my major is not marketing she was doesn’t matter. I recommend you buy this book called inventing desire. And it was a book where a journalist actually lived in the offices of Shai a day, at the time was just one office, but it’s an amazing office. And I literally borrowed four more dollars, so I could buy the book that night. And I read it in one night and fell in love with the idea of working in an ad agency.

Marc Gutman 19:39
What about that book spoke to you?

Tamer Kattan 19:42
The honesty. I was I always thought that, you know, when you work in a corporate environment that you couldn’t be yourself anymore. I felt like it was constrained. And in the book, she was sort of showing the type of conversations people had and they were cussing. And I think as a kid, I was like, Oh, well These adults are cussing. And it was just real and they were passionate. And they were creating something. They’re creating stories. And so I got really excited.

And I remember I did the craziest thing, it was around Halloween. And I heard that they got something like 400 resumes a day for internships, and I wrote a resume through a typical template. And I looked at it, I’m like, This is absurd. I just have skate shop and surf shop experience. Why am I even setting this to an ad agency? So I said, Well, if I can’t show my creativity through the experience that I’ve had, maybe I can shoot show it, and how I expressed that experience. So because it was around Halloween, I went into this Halloween shop and they had those foam butts that you could tie around your waist to make it look like you have a naked butt. And I wrote my resume across the butt cheeks. And I wrote Cal Poly Sr. willing to work as asof for internship. And then I went to a donut store and bought a pink box for $1. It was such a ripoff. And then I put it in the box and I mailed it to Shai a day. And three days later, they called me and asked me and I heard that the HR lady kept the butt on her wall for like a year.

Marc Gutman 21:10
Did you end up getting the internship?

Tamer Kattan 21:12
Yeah, I got the job. Yeah,

Marc Gutman 21:13
That’s amazing.

Tamer Kattan 21:14
And it turned into a job too.

Marc Gutman 21:16
Oh, that’s amazing. And so how long did you work for Shai day, what was forget that let’s back up a second, like, so you’re a young kid, you’re like, I’m gonna go to the preeminent advertising firm in the world, you you impress them, you do a great job. And that’s one of the things I do love about advertising, marketing, branding, it’s like talent speaks, you know, and so you you got their attention and that and so like, I was the first day like,

Tamer Kattan 21:42
It was funny, and to underpin your point, the people who worked, and they told me, Listen, we don’t have an opening and creative, but we have an opening and broadcast. And the people there liked my resume so much, because everything else, they seemed like they were bored of the other resumes they were getting.

So they they primed me to interview with Richard O’Neill, who is the executive producer on like, the George Orwell spot, 1984. And I guess, he said, I refuse to accept an intern here who’s not in film school. And so they basically told me, you’re gonna lie, you’re gonna say that you’re in film school. And I remember like, being like, Oh, my God, I can’t lie. I was a kid. And I’m like, Can I lie to this man, but they told me you’re gonna lie. And if you have to go to film school aid, and we’ll send you to film classes at night, but we want you here, you want to be here. This is the this is the last gatekeeper. And we’re going to tell you what you need to do to get the job. And yeah, it was pretty wild.

Marc Gutman 22:40
And so you walked in, and I mean, what was it? Like? I mean, was it cuz I remember when I was in California, passing the building in Venice, and it had the big, kind of like, binoculars, binoculars, right? Yeah, giant binoculars out fry. It just seemed like, I never went in and it just seemed like the place where really cool things happened. You know, we’re really cool things were created. And I had this like Mystique in order to me. I wasn’t even in the advertising business. I was in the film business. I was like, that looks really really cool. Yeah, like, what was it? Like, when you got in there? I mean, like, like, a certain,

Tamer Kattan 23:15
You know, that song? Eye of the tiger from the 80s? Yeah, it was like walking into that song. Like, everything, I just my heart rate just started going up. You know, we went in, I remember my first little tour. And as you know, they they welcomed interns, just like real employees. And we got like, a tour of the place. And they gave us a coffee mug that said, innovate or die, you know. And then they had like, and then added another, that was the coffee mug and a T shirt said who wants to be an effing ad agency. And just the logo was like a skull and crossbones. And it was, you know, all about disruptive thinking and breaking conventions. And it was, it was just sexy, you know, a really sexy thinking and really sexy ideas. And they had punching bags in the office that have management heads, on screen printed on the punching bags. See? And I’m like, this place is so cool. It was it was like nothing I’d seen before. And I felt like I was home.

Marc Gutman 24:13
Yeah, and rock and roll culture. But yeah, so the culture is cool. And you’re looking around, but like, what about the work? Like, what was going on? Like, what did you get to work on? And what were some of your first experiences? I mean,

Tamer Kattan 24:25
I was greatly intimidated when I started. And you know, the work Initially, I was just a broadcast assistant. Actually, I was an intern at first. And what was happening is it was really interesting when you’re an intern at a place like that, because there’s so many interns and, and so many of them go in and out that a lot of times people don’t spend a lot of time getting to know you. So I did very menial tasks in the beginning but I went out of my way to show that I wanted more than that. So you know, I would do all the typical things like get coffee, pick up food, photocopies back when that was the thing to do. Do

But then I’d go up to the the guy who was the video editor at the time it was on an avid system, you know? And I’d say, Hey, can I go to lunch with you? And can I buy a piece of pizza because it’s all I could afford, you know, and, and ask you about editing? And I think that they were, it’s so funny because it’s such a simple thing. And I remember as a kid looking at this grown man, and going, Oh, he, it brought him joy, that I took a real interest in what he was really passionate about. And I remember feeling off balance a little bit, that I was this young guy that kind of touched this older person, it was sort of a role reversal. In my mind, I thought, so I think I didn’t have the sexiest job, but because I kept because I stayed passionate the whole time, because I didn’t let the menial labor, get me down. And I ended up getting hired after the internship was over. And then, you know, I immediately was working on Nissan Gatorade, you know, zema at the time, really big stuff, like really big, high profile accounts. And even though I was, you know, the tiniest, the tiniest part of the totem pole, it still felt great to see my fingerprint, you know, on on these things.

Marc Gutman 26:15
Yeah. And it’s, you know, even talking about the avid editing machines, I remember those, they were like, it was like the dawn of like, nonlinear editing. And it was such a big deal. And they were like, yeah, you know, $100,000 or $60,000 for a machine. And I just remember, you know, you had a bay of them. And I just remember thinking, like, who could ever only the craziest people could ever edit on a computer, you know, like, how, yeah, how does that happen? And then in the process of transferring the film, the digital was something that was my first job, actually, I would drive the film to the processing studio.

And so I knew a lot about it, but it was just crazy. And so but I also, you know, I had a similar experience. And then I was a young person living in Santa Monica and living in California. And it was tough. You know, it was expensive. It was competitive. Like, how did you fare like, I mean, you loved it, and you’re working on these accounts, but like, how are you getting by? Because I’m guessing they’re not paying yet?

Tamer Kattan 27:11
Yeah, I mean, I think it was 18,000. That was my first salary. And then they gave me like an American Express corporate card. I don’t think I understood how to use that card. So I would use it not realizing, oh, shit, I gotta pay this immediately. You know, I wasn’t very smart. You know, I was I lived on electric Avenue in Venice, when Venice was still I mean, Venice. To this day, there’s a coffee shop that has kind of the unofficial slogan of Venice Beach, which is where art meets crime. And, and that’s what Venice was like, I lived on electric Avenue. And there was, you know, there’s a lot of crime, you hear gunshots at night, I live not too far from Shai day, but it was scary at night. And, you know, it was my first time living on my own. And I struggled for sure to, you know, figure out how to pay bills and how to be organized. But I love going to work. And so if there was one part of me that was acting like an adult, it was the part that went to work.

Marc Gutman 28:09
Yeah, it’s so interesting to see Venice today and how it how it’s changed. I mean, my first my first apartment was on Navy street in Venice, right on the border. And I was so excited cuz I had this like, I’m not kidding. You like a two inch sliver view to the ocean. You know, being a kid for Michigan. I was like, I’m on the ocean or whatever. But I mean, it was Yeah, awful place. And it was super tiny. Like a studio I shared with somebody, but I was like, No, you’d be in Venice. And once the sun went down, I’d be I’d be scared. So I get it. And it’s tough. And so you’re you’re working to shut it down. I mean, is this, you think this is it your future? This is all you’re gonna do for the rest of your life? What’s where do you go from here?

Tamer Kattan 28:48
No, you know, it’s funny. I I’d never worked like that before. So and I didn’t really pace myself. I felt like Shia Day was a marathon and I sprinted as fast as I could. And I’d say about a year and a half in, I’d had enough. And I kind of, I heard a friend of mine, started an outrigger canoe school in Hawaii. And I was like, boy, Does that sound good. And he invited me to work with him.

And I remember the day I quit, there was a woman named Elaine Hinton, who is the vice president of broadcast I’m not sure she’s still there. And she was an amazing woman. And she basically looked at me and said, Are you crazy? What are you doing? And I said, I’m going to Hawaii. She goes, you’re leaving shy, dare to go to Hawaii to paddle canoes. And I go, you know, I gained weight. I was sitting in these cold editing rooms. It just, and I wasn’t I didn’t know how to pace myself. You know, so I burned out. And I left I went to Hawaii, and she tried her best to, to put some wisdom in me. But it was it was the right thing for me at the time.

I ended up working at Shai de two more times in the in the future. So I always went back. I still I just spoke to rob Schwartz the other day, who’s the chief creative officer at Shai day in New York. Well, Ashley is the first creative that became a CEO of Shai day. And, you know, we still talk, you know, and he, I retweeted a post and he said something like, once a pirate, always a pirate, you know, and it felt great, you know, because shy it was more than an agency for me, it became a part of my identity, you know, as did Bulldog Drummond when I worked with Shawn, you know, he was definitely another sticker that I had in my suitcase, a big one.

Marc Gutman 30:30
Yeah. And so you’re in Hawaii, you anything major come of this. canoe school, outrigger canoe school.

Tamer Kattan 30:38
The biggest thing was boredom. Oh, my God. It was so I didn’t realize what Island living was like until I remember going shopping and seeing this cool shirt, you know, and I’m like, oh the shirts great. And I was excited about wearing it to a nightclub and meeting a girl. And I went into the nightclub under like six other guys with the same shirt. And I’m like, I’m getting out of here. This is

Marc Gutman 30:59
Not a lot of choice on the island, right?

Tamer Kattan 31:03
I lasted about six months in Hawaii.

Marc Gutman 31:05
That’s awesome. You came back to California?

Tamer Kattan 31:08
Came back to California. I ended up I did a little bit of a left turn where I worked in the fashion industry for a little bit my family. On on the Jewish center garmentos, talk about a cliche, right? And so I ended up working for this big fashion trade show called Magic was the men’s apparel guild in California. And I learned a lot about the fashion industry. But I always still identified as an ad person as someone who understood brand. And always thought, Oh, that’s going to hurt the brand. You can’t do that. You know, whenever we talked about sales versus sales goals versus communication goals, I’d always be the person who’s trying to do my best to protect the brand. So even when I was at these other industries, I still felt a pull back towards working at the brand level.

Marc Gutman 31:52
Is that when you got back, went back to Chiat\Day?

Tamer Kattan 31:54
Yeah, I ended up going back to back to Chiat\Day years later. I worked at Deutsche at Chiat, young and Rubicam. So I kind of did a little tour. I even worked at Leo Burnett in Chicago and also in Dubai.

Marc Gutman 32:07
I mean, is there any a list agency you didn’t work at?

Tamer Kattan 32:11
Yes, Saatchi and Saatchi is the one I haven’t worked at.

Marc Gutman 32:15
Love marks is that there is that their book? Love marks.

Tamer Kattan 32:19
Yeah, I love it’s funny too, because I love that book. And I remember reading that book and going, Oh, I really want to work at Saatchi. But you know that the timing wasn’t right. And I always had, you know, other things popping up. So I No, I’ve never worked at Saatchi. Yeah.

Marc Gutman 32:32
Yeah, there’s still time. There’s still time. But like, at what point did you become what you would consider a brand strategist?

Tamer Kattan 32:41
I think, you know, it’s funny because I got the label of brand strategist when I first started working with Shawn. And it was because there was two ways into brand strategy, I thought at an early age, which was, I always knew I wanted to get into brand strategy, but I was I was pretty young at the time. And I noticed that a lot of them either had British accents, or Ivy League educations. And so I said, Alright, I don’t have experience as a strategist. So this is me going back to the type of thinking I had when I gave them the foam butt right, where I said, I have to start thinking about what they want, what’s gonna disrupt their thinking, What’s going to be different. And so when I was approaching Shawn, I said, I don’t want to approach the client approach him and say, Hey, I can be a strategy for the clients you have now.

I’d rather say, Okay, I’m not a strategist, yet. I don’t have experience as a strategist. But what I do have is a tremendous amount of experience and action sports. And so even though I’m not a strategist, I have the type of instincts and understanding of the culture that drives these categories that you’re I don’t care how British the strategist is. I don’t care if he went to Harvard. He doesn’t know more about skateboards and surfboards and the community than I do. And that’s the way that I positioned myself. And Shawn ended up hiring me to pitch Airwalk. And at the time, Airwalk was pretty big business. And I remember when we wrote one that pitch, there was an article that came out and they referred to us as you know, David and Goliath, the little agency that beat all the big agencies.

Marc Gutman 34:13
Was it boulder ball Bulldog drummond at the time? Yeah. So I have two very good friends who both appeared on this podcast who were principals in the marketing at Airwalk. On the snow side, one guy by the name of Steve Nilsen, who goes by Stix. I don’t know if he ever ran

Tamer Kattan 34:29
Oh, yeah, I remember Stix. Oh, my god!

Marc Gutman 34:32
you know, he was on the podcast now. He actually works. He’s doing marketing with liquid death, the water company. I don’t know if

Tamer Kattan 34:39
it’s fun. I just saw them on LinkedIn the other day and I was I was checking out the brand. That’s as soon as you said Stix, it clicked

Marc Gutman 34:45
And Mike Artz and it literally he was right before this call texting me about Linda Nilander and who you may have worked with as well and airwalk who was a marketing principal, but anyways, That’s crazy. That’s crazy. So,

Tamer Kattan 35:02
Yeah,

Marc Gutman 35:02
you went you got airwalk and I think weren’t they doing a lot of work out here in Colorado? Weren’t they like they were,

Tamer Kattan 35:08
We were in evergreen almost every week. And at one point I was living in, in Denver. Okay. And commuting to was evergreen or? Yeah, I think was evergreen.

Marc Gutman 35:18
Yeah. Genesee right like, I think it was, it was technically Genesee wood right next to evergreen. But yeah, we’re the office was. Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s crazy. And so. So that’s how you got got on Shawn’s radar?

Tamer Kattan 35:33
Yeah, kind of and I knew, you know, I, I started reading a lot of books I At first I thought, Oh, the way to be a strategy is to to get mentored at an agency. And it was, it was tough to find a mentorship strategy side. So I ended up just reading tons of books lovemarks was was one of them. Me, the pirate inside, there are a lot of books that really kind of steered my thinking. And ø

Marc Gutman 36:40
And any other books that influenced your thinking at that time that you remember,

Tamer Kattan 36:45
oh, yeah, there was a book on archetypes that just, I remember just blew my mind open. I think it was the outlaw, cowboy and outlaw or something like that. And it was about, you know, the 13 different archetypes and storytelling. And yeah, it was it was a lot of those things. And what I ended up doing as well, as you know, I noticed agencies of the time, it was really popular to put case studies on their websites. And even when they filled up filled out case studies for effectiveness awards. And as you know, a lot of people ignore these, but what a great education to read, how different agencies deconstruct their pitches and how they found their insight. And what the insight was that they found whether it was quantitatively or qualitatively. So I just started digging into entries for competitions from different ad agencies and digging into case studies of different ad agency websites. I’ve always been a big fan of sort of macgyvering knowledge, you know, and figuring out smart ways of gaining information quickly.

Marc Gutman 37:49
This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. If a brand isn’t a logo, or a tagline, or even your product or a brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

And then So at what point, you know, you mentioned that you were bestowed the title and I have a very similar I remember, like, my very first jobs, I was a story editor and you know, to studio, it’s a really big job. But when you’re a production company, it means a lot of different things. And I was way over my head, you know, I was doing, you know, script analysis, but also picking up dry cleaning as well. And, you know, at what point did you actually feel like you were a brand strategist, you know, versus having that title,

Tamer Kattan 39:18
I think, I mean, there was one moment where I felt like I wasn’t trying to prove I was a strategist but I actually brought something that was different. I brought I felt like I was a very good strategist. And it was a moment when we were I was moderating a focus group. Actually, no, I take that back. Somebody else was moderating. I was behind the glass. And sometimes I think a lot of agency people at times will get bored. It’s it is it’s tedious work to watch someone else moderate a focus group. And it was for Mitsubishi at the time, I think. And we’re watching all these SUV people that were intending to buy an SUV Within six months, or within a year, and you know, there’s a typical discussion guide, which is so full of questions that it actually doesn’t create a discussion. It’s just question answer.

And there’s a moment during focus groups where moderators come into the room and ask the people behind the glass, do you have any more questions you want to ask? And when the moderator came back, I kept watching the people, because I was interested. And when I was watching them, I noticed people showing each other pictures, and they were pictures of their dogs. So I said to the moderator, Hey, can you ask how many of them are dog owners? And he looked at me and said, What? And I’m like, I’m just curious, the number of people that buy SUVs, I’m curious if they’re dog owners, so he went in and asked me was something like seven out of 10. And we were like, Whoa, that’s a pretty big percentage. The next group was only five. But then the next two groups were like eight and nine out of 10.

So then we did it. It was like a survey monkey thing where we quantified it and said, Well, we have something there’s something really interesting about there’s definitely a correlation between people who buy SUVs and people who are dog owners. So we approached Mitsubishi and said, Hey, you know, you’ve got competition with all your competition when they create packages for the various SUVs, they’ve got technology packages, they’ve got luxury packages, they’ve got all these different sort of pack, but nobody has a dog package.

And and there were these Japanese business guys are pretty intimidating to pitch to. And they started clapping. And it just, it made me it just tickled me man, I was just in one of them gave us this Hunter S. Thompson quote, he said, I don’t believe the truth is ever told between the hours of nine and five is what people connect between nine and five was certain things in common. But the things after five o’clock are stickier. So and your dog is very sticky. And it’s more sticky than these other things. And I was like when you had the guy on the brand side, convincing his own team of the inside. I was like, Okay, I’m proud of myself. I get myself pat on the back on that one.

Marc Gutman 41:59
That’s so awesome. That’s great. And so, during this time, it sounds like your career is going pretty great. And you’re you’re making a way for yourself. Are you practicing comedy at all? Or is that something that’s yet to come up?

Tamer Kattan 42:13
No, actually, you know, it’s funny, it’s, uh, it went a little. It was a little dark period. For me to be honest. Like, you know, Robin Williams used to always say, cocaine is God’s way of telling you, you’re making too much money. And I was like a single guy making a lot of money. And I just started partying a lot and going out with friends. And I kind of slipped after I reached a point where I’m like, yeah, I’m proud of myself. I’m a great strategist. And then I just became the worst strategist for about three years. And I, all of a sudden, I think the worst thing, the worst label they’ve ever given strategist is the smartest guy in the room. I think it’s detrimental to have people think that that’s what they have to live up to. And I didn’t ask as many questions because I got a little bit of a little arrogant, and I stopped being happy with advertising I wasn’t is as excited anymore.

And then my dad passed away. And when my dad passed away, I had this really weird moment where I realized everything that I was doing was to try to make my dad proud of me. And it was the first time where I said, Well, what makes you happy. And I’d never really done that. And I sort of had this big cleansing period where I stopped drinking, I started, I learned how to learn Transcendental Meditation. I just kind of grabbed the steering wheel back. And, and I was, you know, I was shocked that, you know, 3940 years old, I’d never really known what makes me happy.

What was the driver for me? And so I ended up saying, hey, I’ve always wanted to do comedy. And, but I was afraid to do it, to be honest, because comedy for me was an identity. You know, and I really didn’t have that I was always not fully Egyptian, not fully American, not fully Jewish, not fully Arab. But I was funny, and everyone agreed I was funny. So I was afraid to try to be a comedian. Because what if they told me Oh, you know what, we are also not funny. And then I would have just been floating in space. So I didn’t know what I was going to do.

But I had a friend of mine who ended up marrying Dick Van Dyke. Believe it or not, she’s a girl. She was my girlfriend in high school, and then fell in love with Dick vandyke. And now they’re married couple, and there’s, they’re amazing together. But her brother and I were both the funny guys in high school. And she bumped into me at a supermarket and said, Hey, john is doing stand up. Do you want to go see him? And I’m like, Oh, my God, are you kidding me? And I remember getting really excited at the thought of someone so close to me performing stand up comedy. And not only was he good at the show, he blew every other comic away. And at that point, I thought to myself, well, if john is that much better than everyone else, and john and i were the funny guy In high school, if I could just be a little bit if I could be even close to as good as he is, I, you know, this will be fun. And I didn’t think it was gonna turn into anything else. I thought it was just going to take one class and get on stage once and have it be a bucket list thing that then professional comedians started approaching me and saying, Hey, you got something. And I did the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland. And I won Best New International act under two years and had a manager assigned me and I came back to the states and quit my job and advertising and sold my house and sold my car and moved to England and lived in a box for four years doing stand up.

Marc Gutman 45:38
And how, like, how was that? Was that great?

Tamer Kattan 45:40
Or was it it was the best. I went from driving a fancy car living in a house in the Hollywood Hills with a view of the Hollywood sign to literally living in an apartment with no windows, right. It was owned by the comedy club. When we showered It was me and another comedian that live there. Whenever we showered, we had to open a skylight so that the house wouldn’t turn into a sauna. Like it was terrible. And we live behind a chicken shop with a really high fence. So people thought behind the fence was a dumpster. So every night I’d come home, there’d be a bag of chicken bones at my doorstep. So I mean, I went from top of the world to bottom of the world in terms of residents, but I was the happiest I’ve ever been.

Marc Gutman 46:19
What? You know, it’s so crazy. Like, how did you have an find the courage to make that decision? I mean, you said you’re like 3940 years old things are going good. I mean, it’s got to be scary to enter into. I mean, I can’t believe there was one and I’ve done stand up. I can’t believe there’s one stand up comedian that said, Hey, kid, this is easy. This is an easy life, right? This is both easy business and an easy life. I know. It’s hard. Like, like, Where did you find that strength to pursue that dream?

Tamer Kattan 46:49
You know, this is gonna sound so silly. But it you know how I said, when I was a kid, I didn’t even know what made me funny. Just something that kind of happened. I think I’ve always just been drawn to that I think we’re all supposed to do something. And I didn’t want to give up looking for it, you know, and I felt like advertising was very, very close to it. And I still I still love advertising, I still actively read about ads and case studies, I think it’s brilliant. Like, it’s literally To me, it’s our version of carving hieroglyphics on a pyramid. It’s the digital version of doing that. And I think it’s a privilege to work with some brands for sure. But for me, I think I was at a point where I didn’t have much to lose, I was single, I didn’t think I was going to get married I I was, you know, I wasn’t happy. At my advertising job. I was in a situation that was tough for everyone, it was a digital ad agency that wanted to go full service, which is everybody in advertising knows is one of the toughest Growing Pains culturally, for an agency to go from just digital to, to full service.

Even if it’s digitally lead, it was really hard for them to embrace strategy. So it was a hard job there. Especially as you know, you get the title of change agent change agent. And you think it’s nice, but people don’t like change. And so I had a tough time going into an office where I felt like a lot of people didn’t like me, and then going onstage at night. And I had people coming up to me and hugging me and saying, Hey, you know, your joke about child abuse, my dad beat me too. And then I get a hug from a guy that looked like he was in Sons of Anarchy. And I’m like, Hey, this is really spiritually spiritually fulfilling. And so it was a pretty easy decision at the end.

Marc Gutman 48:33
So what’s funny about brand strategy and advertising.

Tamer Kattan 48:38
It’s you It’s it’s the human nature. You know, like, I feel like I said this to one of my friends. And he always asked me about religion. I go, No, we don’t know why we’re here. It’s like we’re on level one of an escape room. And instead of working together to figure out how to get to level two, we all just started fighting in the escape room. So I like figuring things out. I like I, I love using my emotional intelligence, especially because I feel like that’s something that us men have an it’s an underdeveloped thing in us.

You know, like, I think women have always been told to, to grab on to intuition. And men have been told that we don’t have that. And women grow up with these impossible physical standards. And then men are told things like, boys don’t cry. So we have impossible emotional standards. And I think I saw how much that hurt me when I was younger, to not talk about problems to not, it feels. I like being an observer. I think being a good listener makes you a better storyteller. And I love being able to listen so aggressively, to listen aggressively. Until I hear things and see things that other people don’t see. Like I in my comedy. The thing that brings me the most joy is not when people laugh. It’s when people say oh my god, that’s so true. That’s my favorite.

Marc Gutman 49:58
So speaking of that, do you have Or can you recall a joke and you don’t have to do line for line? Maybe it’s the kind of the premise that you just love and you think is so insightful, but others don’t.

Tamer Kattan 50:11
Oh, yeah, I had a, you know what, I love the joke that kind of changes people’s minds a little bit and gives them perspective. And so I said, I was in Little Rock, Arkansas, and I’m an Arabic comedian, you know, and Little Rock, Arkansas while Trump was running. And some somebody yelled out, he’s Arab. That name is Arab. And I go, Oh, yeah, but you don’t be afraid of me. I should be afraid of you. All, because cowboy hats for me are like turbans for you. I’m old, and this room is full of a bunch of cowboy hats. And I go, and let’s be honest, he ha is just white people for Allah Akbar. And then they all started laughing. And once I said that, they all started laughing man. And it was it was really nice. And it was it showed the power of comedy, you know? And as a boy, its hooks got me after that.

Marc Gutman 51:05
I mean, do you do you face that a lot? Do you face a lot of racism and a lot of people heckling you while you’re on stage, because you’re ever.

Tamer Kattan 51:15
I mean, I’m pretty lucky. I have a pretty high number of laughs per minute. I’m a pretty punchy comic. And I think sometimes that helps you manage hecklers. And too, you know, I was a comic in New York for a long time. And people are pretty vocal in New York. So I’m pretty good at managing hecklers. But the number of people that come up to me after the show, when Trump was running, I got three death threats. And that was shocking. That’s the first time that’s ever happened. So it was it was scary. It was a little bit scary. When that happened. I didn’t, I didn’t expect it. But then there were.

It also taught me a lot about human beings. You know, like, I thought I really understood America because I worked at these ad agencies in New York and Chicago and Miami and LA. And I’m like, Oh, I know America. And I didn’t, until I became a comedian and started going to Little Rock, and and you know, Wichita, Kansas, and, and then I started doing America. But it’s, I also realized, I remember going on stage one night and getting booed really badly, because I was introduced as an Arab comedian. And then I thought to myself, you know, and the owner of the club said, Listen, I’m really sorry, we have good people here. We have bad people here. But sometimes we get bad people. And I understand if you don’t, if you want to leave early, and I’ll pay you for tonight, and I’ll I’ll feel the other night. And I, he goes, I’ll let you think about it. And I said, Okay, and I went home, and I said, No, I’m not, I’m not gonna quit, because that’s not right. And I said, I don’t like the way I was introduced. So let me manage this. Right.

And I remember my grandfather used to say this thing that I had above my desk at my ad agency, which was listening is the cost of being heard. And so I needed to show them that I would, that I listened I needed to show them. And if they think that I’m on their side, then I’m going to be different than the Arab that they perceived. So I told the guy don’t say I’m an Arab, just introduced me as a guy from LA. So he did. And when I went up on stage, I said, Hey, this is my first time in Oklahoma, Oklahoma City. I’m on site. This is a really beautiful place. It’s really pretty here. And I didn’t know because people in LA talk a lot of crap about you guys. Did you guys know that? And they’re like, yup, yup. And they started agreeing with me. And I’m like, That’s crazy. How could they talk? And this guy said to me, You, if you’re gonna go to Oklahoma, you better watch out. They’re really racist over there. And I’m like, you mean, they’re gonna judge me without even knowing me? And he goes, Yeah, I’m like, wow, you ever been to Oklahoma? And he goes, No. And I’m like, What an asshole.

And the whole audience laughed, and they all clap their hands. And at that point, they owed me. I stood up for them when they were the minority. I was in the big city, defending a small town from big city people. So then when I became an Arab in front of them, they started managing themselves. When somebody tried to heckle me, it was another person at a table next to him to say, Hey, man, shut up, let him finish. It was great. And I think I think that’s what it means to be a human being. We’re parts of multiple tribes and multiple groups. And I think if you if you break the ridiculous stereotypes, people become people again.

Marc Gutman 54:17
Now what an amazing example of how to connect with someone that is different from you that might have different beliefs might even be against you upon first first impression and how to bridge that. That’s just, I love that story. ,

Tamer Kattan 54:32
Oh thank you.

Marc Gutman 54:33
Yeah, it’s it’s really great. Thank you for sharing that. I’m a little speechless, which doesn’t happen often. timer, where can people learn more about you and your comedy, we’re might be able to see you.

Tamer Kattan 54:44
Well, until COVID. Right. But you know, I do a lot of zoom shows. Now. My Websites a great place, which is TamerKattan.com. And then I also have a YouTube series with my wife that we do every week. It’s sort of a marriage. social experiment. We got married on the day we met. And, and so we do that that comes out every Wednesday. And that’s a great place to follow. Follow us on Instagram to

Marc Gutman 55:11
really quickly let’s talk about that. Like, can you tell that story quickly about like getting married the day you met. That’s, that’s, that’s awesome.

Tamer Kattan 55:17
For sure. I mean, when I was a kid, I, I’ve always loved traveling. But when I didn’t have money, I would use the internet to travel, like with videos and pictures and things like that. And so when quarantines started, I really miss traveling. So I found out that Bumble, the dating app had this feature called passport, where you could be in another city. And so I was in Spain. And I didn’t think anything of it because it was you know, so far away, but I met this amazing Swedish woman. And we had so much in common, I was blown away and almost frustrated too, because I was like, God, we have all this stuff in common. And she lives 1000s of miles away. And what happened was, because she was so far away, we were almost like playing a game of chicken with honesty, and just being really brutally honest with each other about our flaws.

Like even my profile was like, oh, I’ve been single this long, because I’m selfish. I used to have a drinking problem. I miss on that I basically did the opposite of what everybody else did in their profile. And then she sent me an email back that mimicked what I’d written about all of her flaws, and it became like a game with us. And so then I fell in love. And the laws had changed in Barcelona, and I already had COVID in March, and I had papers saying I had the antibodies. So I had this window to fly to Barcelona. So I flew in. And then when I got there, they changed the law when I was in the air, and they put me in jail in the airport, and I had to spend the night in jail. And she was 500 feet away from me. And we didn’t meet and they flew me back to America.

And I’m like, I’m not giving up. And then we did a bunch of research and we found out about Gibraltar, just tiny country that’s on Spanish soil, that kind of UK property sort of, and they were allowing Americans in and it was also like the Las Vegas of Europe. And so I flew in there we met there, and I brought a ring and asked her to marry me that first time I saw her and she said Yeah, we got married. It’s been six months and now we’re in Barcelona until COVID zoning we’ll figure out what we’ll do next.

Marc Gutman 57:21
Yeah, and that’s an incredible incredible story and I can’t wait to start watching your your YouTube show cuz like no, I really curious you set the timer. Yeah, Tamer. I mean, as we come to a close here, I mean, if you ran into that young Tamer, who is Tamer? I’m sorry that Tamer who was like nine years old and kind of figuring things out and obsessed with dungeons and dragons and being a latchkey kid, like, like, if he saw you today, what do you think he’d say,

Tamer Kattan 57:51
oh, man, you’re so insightful for saying that. Like I always. When people ask me, why did you start doing comedy at 40? I go, I didn’t. I started at nine. Like, I’m not doing it for me. I’m doing it for him. You know, like, I think he’d be proud of me. It feels weird to say that, like I complimented myself. I think he would I think he’d be proud of me. I think the older version thinks I’m a silly and immature. But I think the little kid version of me thinks I’m like a male Pippi Longstocking and he digs it.

Marc Gutman 58:23
In that is Tamer Kattan could have listened to Tamer stories for hours. And I’m glad he saved his story about marrying his wife. The day he met her till the very end. Tamer story really is one of the American dream that maybe we should be calling it the human dream. Because Tamer’s ability to connect and empathize with people, even those who are initially out to get him or condemn him is admirable. And I think at this time in our country, we can all learn a lot from the Egyptian American kid from Los Angeles, who is now living in Spain, telling jokes for a living maybe we should just be a little bit more like Tamer.

A big thank you to Tamer Kattan and Shawn Parr for the intro. I’m sure it comes as no surprise, but I’m a huge Tamer fan. And I’m guessing by this point, you are too We will link to all things Tamer Kattan, his website his YouTube show his socials in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wild story calm. Our best guests like Tamer come from referrals from past guests and our listeners.

Well, that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can’t deny

BGBS 055: Mike Rohde | Sketchnotes | No One Has Your Persnickety-ness

BGBS 055: Mike Rohde | Sketchnotes | No One Has Your Persnickety-ness

How can you dare to do something you previously thought you couldn’t do? Mike Rohde, designer and author of two bestselling books: The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, helps everyday people overcome just that. Through simplifying the art of drawing and providing a judgement-free space, Mike empowers his students to realize their Sketchnoting capabilities. Mike defines Sketchnoting as a communication device that is first for you, then for other people. Whether you make scribbly drawings or masterpieces, the importance is that you engage with what you’ve retained to find value in what you learn. Drawing was always a part of Mike’s life, and we learn about his journey from doodling cars from memory as a kid, to working as a print designer in the pre-computer era. All of his knowledge truly paid off when having full control of the hand-lettering and drawing within his books. To Mike, writing a book is like climbing a mountain, but he emphasizes that celebrating each small win makes it oh-so worthwhile. Today, Mike is on a mission to teach, and the world is definitely better off because of it. Keep making the world a little bit braver Mike!

In this episode, you'll learn...

• In most of Mike’s workshops, around 80-90% of participants begin the session believing they can’t draw. His goal is to make these same people confident in their abilities by the end of at least an hour.
• “Ideas, not art.” People get hung up on the idea of their ability to draw as a stumbling block. Once Mike teaches them a simpler way to visualize in a flexible setting, non-artists realize that they have much more capability than they believe
• Here’s the thing about Sketchnotes: It’s first for you, then for other people. If you have a scratchy drawing that captures meaningful information, that is more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that doesn’t represent what you’ve heard
• Growing up, if Mike wanted something, he had to create it himself. This is how he made his own comic books and newspapers, allowing him to hone and master the skill of drawing from memory, which helps him with work to this day
• In a long haul project like writing a book, it’s all about the progress, not the achievement. It can’t be done overnight; there will be lots of grinding and revisions and being happy with the progress made, no matter how small, will make everything worthwhile.
• Before the name “Sketchnote” was coined, Mike named his creation “sketchtoons”. After writing notes for a life-changing event in 2007, the new name felt more fitting
• Mike enjoys using both an iPad or pen and paper for his work and doesn’t prefer one over the other. The way he sees it, you wouldn’t ask a professional mechanic if they prefer a wrench or hammer! They each have their own strength and purpose.
• Lately, Mike has been into drawing with good old Paper Mate Flair Pens on his own Sketchnote Ideabook, which has thick, white paper ideal for Sketchnoting
• Mike believes that the thickness of a pen line will affect your state of mind while working and can impact the way you draw
• The Sketchnoting technique is beginning to be used within schools to get students more engaged in their learning and discover how to better analyze and make sense of the world 

Resources

Website: rohdesign.com LinkedIn: Mike Rohde Facebook: @Sketchnote Handbook Instagram: @rohdesign Twitter: @rohdesign

Quotes

[11:54] The more important skill in Sketchnoting is actually listening and analysis. So the ability to listen and to make sense of what's being said, and to then be able to draw it is really key. If you have scribbly, scratchy drawings and writing but you're able to listen and make sense of something and capture it, that's going to be much more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that doesn't represent what you were learning or what you heard. [24:12] Ultimately, it wasn't about the money...I've been through enough projects where I wasn't in control of things to know that when you turn it over to someone else, they just don't have your vision or your persnickety-ness to make things exactly the way you want it.  [30:38] Here's some wisdom for people who are thinking about book writing and creation. It's definitely worthwhile when you're done. But it's definitely a journey when you're going through it. And that's okay, I think it's good to have those lifetime experiences where you can't do it in a weekend, you’ve got to do it over months. [41:51] Seth Godin always talks about if the idea is good, you're probably not going to be able to stop it...I just look back at these certain pivot points where it hit a point and accelerated, and it just continues to do that. And now, there's tons of people doing it and teaching it and sharing it. And I really like that. I love having lots of voices in the space. I think it just verifies that it's a real thing. And it's definitely a benefit to people who adopt it.

Podcast Transcript

Mike Rohde 0:02 It's really funny that all that stuff happened in the first that first 2007 I think that the first 2007 was where I realized, it feels like I should call it sketchnoting. Before that, it's funny like, up to that point it was like the pro name for it was sketch tunes like I was, it was sort of like was cartoons and sketching. But when I did this event, it was a little less like cartoons and just more like sketching and noting and that word just came to me. So it was right at that event, when I just really started calling it sketchnoting. And for whatever reason that name seemed to make sense to a lot of people and they liked it. Marc Gutman 0:39 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, we are talking to someone who has impacted my life in ways that very few have and today we are talking with Mike Rohde, the author, and I guess you can say inventor of Sketchnotes, the unique method of taking notes visually. And before we get into my conversation with Mike, if you'd like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. And Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. Hey, while you're at it, one enemy who like it as well. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the Baby Got Backstory podcast. Today's guest is Mike Rohde. Mike is a designer and the author of two best selling books, the sketchnote Handbook, and the Sketchnote workbook. He teaches in evangelizes sketchnoting. in Visual Thinking literacy around the world, he's a principal designer in visualizer. at Johnson Controls, his team helps group and define problems and imagine new solutions using Human Centered Design Thinking principles. Mike illustrated the best selling books rework, remote, the hundred dollar startup in the little book of talent. And as I mentioned, Mike's book changed my life. I'm not I'm not joking here. I believe it was Brent Weaver, who suggested the book to me in passing. And it wasn't supposed to be life changing. Just a little recommendation from a friend, or something he had heard of, or briefly seen. Hey, you should check out this book, about sketchnoting. I think that's what it's called, is what he told me that when I opened up the book, it was as if Mike was speaking directly to me, to the way I saw the world, to the way I learned to the way I listened at events. But I had self doubts. I didn't, and still don't see myself as an artist. My drawings are rough and crude. But Mike's book told me I could do it. If I followed his teachings, if I followed his steps. And you know what? He was right. And a whole new world opened up for me, my aperture expanded and I was able to communicate in a way that was authentic to me in a way that was beneficial to me and appreciated by others. Today, I get stopped by others who crane their necks to see my notes. I've shared my notes that the requests of others and classmates and people at conferences. And most importantly, it has helped my memory of key ideas and events in a way that handwriting just can't. Oh, and by the way, I have the world's worst handwriting. Several times a day, I lose an idea or a to do item on my list because I can't read my own handwriting. Drawing and big type in pictures was designed for me. Recently, my good friend Keith Roberts and I were interviewing one another, and he asked me about Sketchnotes. And we published that interview to YouTube. And you might imagine my surprise when on a Saturday morning while drinking coffee, Mike Rohde emailed me saying he liked our video that started an email conversation back and forth. And here we are. I'm so excited to introduce you to Mike Rohde, and this is his story. I am here with Mike Rohde, the author of the sketchnote handbook in the follow up the Sketchnote work. book. And as I told Mike, when we when we just met on zoom here a couple minutes ago, it is a real honor because Mike is a personal hero of mine. I'm a big fan of sketchnoting. I did a little YouTube video about it and via the power of the search engines and crawling algorithms that found its way to Mike and Mike reached out and said, I was really cool that you like my sketchnoting? And I said, Yeah, that's really cool. You liked my video about your sketchnoting? Yes, no. And so here we are. And so Mike, let's get right to it. Like what is Sketchnoting? Mike Rohde 5:39 So Sketchnoting is this way of capturing information visually. So it's note taking, but you're not limited to only writing, you can write, and you can draw pictures, and you can do lettering and use icons and color to express yourself in a way that's more expressive. And I think, provides more ability to remember and recall information than simply writing in text. Marc Gutman 6:05 Yeah, I would agree that's one of the things that I love most about it is the ability to recall I mean, I'll be flipping through old notebooks. And I'll see like something funny that I, I drew that was it was meaningful to me, like, Yes, I completely remember what that was about, and what we talked about in the takeaway, versus if I'm thumbing through and I see a bunch of text and, you know, it just doesn't resonate in the same way. So that that memory recall, is one of the the biggest things I love about it. And, you know, I think one of the first questions most people probably have is, you know, do I have to be an artist? Do I have to be have this immense talent to be into Sketchnoting? Mike Rohde 6:39 That's a really great question. And when I used to present in person, I haven't presented so much in person lately. One of the first questions I would ask in one of my workshops, whether they were an hour or a full day, is who here feels like they can't try, please raise your hand, and usually 80 or 90% of the room would raise their hands. And I would get excited about that. Because having done the workshop hundreds of times now, I know that by the end of at least an hour, people will feel more confident in their ability to draw in the key to it is exactly what you pointed out, people are concerned that this is art. And if I'm not a good artist, I can't do it. And so it's really fun to show them another way. Another way to, to visualize it doesn't necessarily rely on the art that they may have been taught in school, which in a lot for a lot of people is baggage, it's more harmful than helpful to getting started. So one of my mantras is ideas, not art. And it's not, it sounds very provocative to an artist. I'm an artist as well. And I don't feel that way at all. I think what it what it means to me. And the reason I use that term, is the idea that people get so hung up on their ability to draw, being a stumbling block, that I needed to take that stumbling block away from them, I needed to provide them a simpler way to visualize what they were thinking that would not be so demanding, and so difficult for them to do, right. And especially in an environment where you're doing this live while thing people are talking and being able to draw, making it simple, is a really, really big key to getting people to do this, because you can you know, most people who come to the classes already can write. So I mean, unless you're teaching, you know, second graders or something like that, that the challenge is just be writing, right? Maybe actually, the second grader could draw better than they could write. But for most people, they can already do notes as it is right. They can write things, but they are really afraid of drawing. In fact, I kind of wonder if the fear of drawing is actually stronger than the fear of public speaking in some ways. And the reason I say that is, as you think about it, let's say you're a really successful business person, maybe a CEO, or a high powered executive, and you're supposed to go and draw something. But if you can, if you can't draw any better than a fourth grader, that's not going to be your best side, you don't want to reveal your weakness, right? So it can be really scary for someone who feels like that's a weakness in their life, to admit it to someone else. So I think it's really important to in these workshops, and also individually to create some kind of a safe space where it's okay to not be graded, trying and again, so it comes back to the simple way of drawing that makes it possible for non artists to do this work. And to see that they've actually got tons more capabilities than they probably realized when they walked in the room. Marc Gutman 9:32 Yeah, I totally agree. And you talk a bit about writing in this in this idea of writing and how we all know how to write but, you know, to me, there's this mythology that artists are born they come out of their mother and they are just talented. And when you were speaking it reminded me that well, yes, well, we all can write it's a learned skill and we don't come out as babies with the ability to to make characters and we actually spend quite a bit of time practicing, and we have, you know, in our class, we have dotted paper and all these things to make the most basic characters. And what I really like about Sketchnoting is this same idea that it's something that you can learn, and you can build up your own alphabet, so to speak, you can build up your own library of things that you can draw on, it really is more about being suggestive. And I think, you know, what I really love. And I don't remember which book it is. But there's, there's a variety of ways of even doing like human figures, like I'm like terrible human figures, but you can do stick figures with pointy noses. And just by the way that you can't the line or have an arm movement, you can suggest motion and all sorts of things. So really taking that away and using Sketchnoting more as a communication device and something that people can learn. And so that, you know, that's something that is that I've taken away from your books that, you know, with a little bit of practice, like you can build up your own library and get pretty, pretty good, at least for your own skill level of wherever you want to be. Mike Rohde 11:01 Yeah, I mean, it comes back to is it helping you be better be a better person, right? is it helping you? If you go to a conference and you want to learn something? is it helping you remembers and helping you process and helping you learn better, like, I could care less? If it looks awesome, right? That's not the point of it. In fact, you don't even have to show it to me, you can keep it private. If that's what you feel like, I think that's sort of a misnomer was Sketchnotes that seems to travel with it as well. If you Sketchnote, then you have to publish it on social media and the show everybody in the world, your work? Well, you can but I don't think it's required, it's first for you, and then for other people. Mike Rohde 11:37 So it's going to have more meaning for you, because you're the one that did it. And all those little short hands that you're doing, as you're creating the Sketchnotes mean a lot more to you, especially since you were there in the moment when it was happening, right, it's gonna bring back memories that nobody else has got in their heads. So I think actually, the more important skill in Sketchnoting is actually listening, and analysis. So the ability to listen and to make sense of what's being said, and to then be able to draw it is really key. So if you have, you know, scribbly, scratchy drawings and writing and stuff, but you're able to listen and make sense of something and capture it, that's going to be much more valuable than a beautiful Sketchnote that, you know, is doesn't represent what what you were learning or what you heard. So I do think listening is kind of like the secret weapon that a lot of people overlook, for drawing really well. And I think, you know, drawing is sort of a part of it. But it's almost like a whole body experience of listening and drawing and involves every part of your body, which is another good reason to do it, because it's really fully engaging in a lot of ways. Marc Gutman 12:45 And so you're in Wisconsin now, is that where you grew up? Mike Rohde 12:49 I grew up in the Chicago area, actually, as a kid, and moved here. When I was in my teens, and had been here for quite a while, raised a family here really liked this area. I always felt good. Being a Midwesterner, I like the seasons. So it's been a really good fit for me and my family. And I like I like being here. Like, kind of like being from Milwaukee, there's, it's kind of a cool little town that sometimes people don't always think about when they come here, like this is a really cool city. How did I not know about this city? So it's kind of fun to sort of know my way around and know the cool places to take people. And it's kind of fun. It's it's good to be from the Midwest, and in the Midwest, I guess. Marc Gutman 13:28 Yeah, I can attest I last time I was in Milwaukee was I think, during the polar vortex, like two years ago, and I couldn't really go outside very much. But it was it was really great and really cool seeing there. And I can't remember the name of it. But I went to this really cool kind of indie movie theater. And I see that you're in the movies there with your background with Blade Runner and Star Wars Back to the Future. And, and that's a big love of mine to see I really, really loved that. And Wisconsin. And so when you were growing up in Chicago, and then into Milwaukee, I mean, were you always kind of doodling Were you always thinking in images? Mike Rohde 14:02 I think I was when I look back as a kid. You know, we we were I guess, lower middle class. I don't know. I don't think that can be judged a lot of different ways. But we did have like tons of money. If I asked for stuff like maybe I'd get it for Christmas, or maybe my birthday. I didn't have lots of toys. We had used bikes that my dad would get from a cousin fix it up. And my dad was good at fixing things. So typically, we would get things that were repurposed, which I kind of appreciate now, and so if I wanted something, I would sort of have to create it. So I got into making my own comic books and I made a little newspapers and books and you know, I did drawing a lot because it was kind of fun. I think a lot of it. I was seeing things and the way I saw things is a little bit unusual for a kid. Mike Rohde 14:49 So I remember, as a little kid, my parents told me that I basically memorize the front's of old cars and I saw the faces In the cars, so the headlights and the grills how had faces to me. So you could be driving down a road and I was Oh, that's a Buick. And then as I got older, that's all the saber, or you know, like I could identify the differences between these cars by the identifying grills or tail lights or other, you know, the lines of the vehicles. And I think that actually encouraged me to draw those. So I could draw them from memory. And I can still do some dumb practices like I did when I was a little kid. But you know, that the ability to memorize and sort of turn cars into objects, I think, sort of primed me in some ways for this idea of doing the visual library that you talk about, like, how can you break down these complex things into simple, simple shapes or simple objects that you could recreate, and you have the essence of the thing, even though it's like, you know, 10 lines, you can capture the essence of a Pontiac lesabre. Right. So that that also came into play. Later, when I was in college, I was a print major and became a graphic design major, one of the things I loved was type graphy. And that was another thing that I could memorize the letter form. So certain letter forms go with certain typefaces, and you could spot a typeface. And all you really need to know is like three or four of the key letter forms. And if you see it in a sentence, you can spot Oh, that skill sands, or that's whatever, right because of specific characteristics. So I think it's the same kind of thing. It's like identifying and boiling things down, and then being able to rely on that memory. I think that's helped me now in doing that kind of that same kind of work. And drawing was always sort of part of my life. And it just never, they never were, no one was able to ever shake it out of me. So I guess I'm lucky in that way that I got to draw since I was a little kid. And it really never stopped. Until now, even in my professional life, I found a way to kind of squeeze it in. Or sometimes they say it leaks out of me whether I like it or not. So that's been a real, I'm really fortunate that that's true for me. Marc Gutman 16:58 Yeah. And that was gonna be my question. So your your parents cool with you pursuing a career in art? Did they see that as a way that you were going to be able to, to make a living, I am sure for, you know, the way you just described it, that middle to lower middle class that like, hey, they probably were like, Hey, we just, we just wanna make sure Mike is okay, you know, he makes a living. And he can make a buck where they were they cool with the art path? Mike Rohde 17:21 Well, my mom is always actually very artistic. And my dad was very good at troubleshooting. So I took on both of those aspects from them. So the funny thing about me is I always had sort of a technical side and an artistic side. So I had both those. I think my dad was probably more concerned. And I'm sort of facing this now, because I've got a son who's just turned 18. So we're kind of wondering, like, what's he going to do right now I'm in the same spot as my dad was. But I think he just didn't understand like, what was an option, then, like, he didn't know understand what graphic design or commercial art was, in our school or high school, I happened to have a really good printing program, at the time, where you could learn printing in the school, do all this work, and then you'd get an apprenticeship and get a job in industry and just transition and be a full time could make pretty good money as a printer back in the day. Mike Rohde 18:10 But as it would, as luck would have it, it was right around the time of a kind of a recession. And so the jobs that normally would have been wide open for a kid like me coming out of high school, with those skills suddenly dried up. And so I went to a Technical College, again, in printing. And in my printing class. There, we did lots of cross training. So I ended up in these design classes with designers in the commercial art or graphic design program. And so I ended up in these design classes, and they're like, what are you doing in printing, you should be a designer. And so I sort of thought, you know, that's, that's a pretty good idea. I'm pretty good at this. And I do like the technical side of the printing. So I switched majors and became a print designer to start my career. And I think I always had the advantage of, you know, I mentioned I was always had a technical and an artistic side. Having come from that printing side, I understood that the reason why printing worked and what the limits were. So when I did my design work, I sort of always had that in the back of my head, and I could go to a press check with a printer, and I could have a discussion with them about ideas for making things print better, or, you know, my stuff would tend to print pretty well because I knew what I should and shouldn't do because I was a printing student. So that's sort of where I made my shift into design and my dad's ended up being very happy with my career choice, but I think a lot of it is he just didn't understand at the time that there was actually a way to do art and be paid for it. He just thought of the starving artists eating ramen noodles in a studio apartment right and then starving their way through life or something. So, you know, he did his best and you know, he ultimately had to trust your kids to make good decisions and that the the train that you gave them up till they were 18 would rub off on him a little bit and then Seems like it did. Marc Gutman 20:02 Yeah. And so your dad, you know, had the wherewithal to step back and let you be your own man. But like, what were you thinking? Were you super confident coming out of school that like you were gonna conquer the world with your art degree? Or was there? Are you uncertain? Or like how clear were you coming out of like, if this was gonna work or not? Mike Rohde 20:20 Well, I was pretty hard, I was pretty hardcore for printing, like, I was pretty good at that I had an artistic eye for it. And I was good at the technical stuff. And I understood the concepts and knew how to apply them. And, you know, there was a little bit of an at the time, because it was still pre computer, when I was coming out, there was a little bit of artistic flair to printing at the time, right? Because you did things made most things you did manually. So there was some human aspect to it, that you could, you could be kind of almost artistic in this in this profession. And I was pretty good at it, I was pretty dedicated to going into that. And then, like I said, the economy sort of changed the direction. And I'm glad it did, because, you know, it sent me back to college, because otherwise I might have just gone right into that business and would have been a printer. And so, you know, it sort of made me pause a little bit and rethink, there was a time for, I think, for a summer that I was into photography as well. Mike Rohde 21:18 So I've always had an interest in these, I guess, communications or visual arts, in general. So all those things are still interesting to me doing photography, I by no means a professional photographer, but you know, I like to, I like taking good shots, I like good lighting, like all those things sort of informed all the work that I do now. So I tend to be, I guess, you know, I would call myself a renaissance man. But I like a lot of different things. I like to have competence in different areas. So having those skills is definitely worked out. Well, for me being able to do as a solo person, or partnering with just one or one other person, like in the case of the Kickstarter, you know, shooting, shooting photos, and doing illustrations, and, you know, all that kind of stuff, all those skills have come become very valuable. Now, as I'm doing this, you know, teaching and product work. And even the books that I wrote, all that printing skill that I had sort of forgotten for a long time came in handy because when peachpit, the publisher came to me, they said, Hey, can we give you like $5,000? And have you design your own book? That's like, Yeah, sure. So I took it all the way from writing the text, and sketching and doing the illustrations to production. So I'm quite an unusual author in that sense that I actually turned over my production files to the printer, and they ran the book, based on my production work. So that's, um, that was a really nice thing to have control from end to end over the whole product. But what were both of the books. So you know, at the time, it's sort of like, you know, the Steve Jobs, quote, you can't see how things how the dots line up until you look back. And that was definitely one of those cases like going into it. He told me when I was a printing student, that one day, I would write this book about visual notetaking. And I would design the book, and it would be a best seller. And I've traveled the world teaching it like, you got to be crazy, like, you would never believe that. But here we are. Looking back and all those experiences. And all that knowledge that I gained over time, really did help me in doing the things that I'm doing now. Marc Gutman 23:23 Yeah, and just for those of you listening, since we are on an auditory medium versus visual, like if you you know, I do want to point out like the complexity of your book, this is not like, you know, I think I think you know, today you can go you can do an E file, you can send it to Amazon, you can get a little cover art, and they'll turn out a book that looks amazing. That looks like it was you know, that's the real deal. But your book is a very visual artistic book, every page is hand lettered, every page is hand drawn to some degree. And so that that's no like insignificant fact that you put in our work. Yeah, he put this book together. I was like, $5,000, like, they got a good deal for that! Mike Rohde 24:04 Yeah, it wasn't like, you know, I took that opportunity as well. I can make money doing it. But I have control that was really, ultimately it wasn't about the money. It was about the ability to make sure so I I've been through enough projects where I wasn't in control of things, to know that when you turn it over to someone else, they just don't have your vision and or your persnickety ness to make things exactly the way you want it. Right, and maybe that's being a perfectionist, but, you know, I I've heard stories of other authors who are also designers who gave up that right someone else. And they were really, really frustrated, like they would spit covers and they would get all turned around. And I just had a really great working relationship with my editor and all the people on that team that they trusted me and I trusted them and we just really worked together well, and it's, it worked out really well. And it's interesting, you mentioned that the book being hand lettered. Mike Rohde 24:58 Actually, one of the things that I I realized as a print production designer was, I do not want to hand write this whole book, because there's going to be too many typos that I'm going to make. So I actually reached out to a friend and said, Hey, do you know somebody who does typeface work? And he's Yeah, sure, this guy named Dell wetherington. Does that work? So I reached out, and he was willing to make a typeface out of my handwriting. So we did several different fonts. And that's what we use to produce the book. So it made it like almost like typesetting like you would use Microsoft Word or something. And then in the end, we had turned that into a product now you can actually buy that typeface for your own projects called the Sketchnote typeface. So, you know, this thing that we did for the book purpose ended up being, you know, an asset later that people use it. In fact, three weeks ago, I saw an ad in a Costco. flyer in my email was using my typeface. So it's, it's pretty crazy how you think it's a one time thing, and it can often have greater impacts. And maybe you imagined in the first place. Marc Gutman 25:59 Yeah, I mean, that's going to be quite the feeling when you see your own typeface and the Costco flyer, and you tell Dell, if he's ever looking for a model of a typeface that's legible. I would be happy to to be you could use my handwriting. You This is like, but it makes me feel a lot better that that was typeset versus, versus hand drawn. Mike Rohde 26:18 Most of it Marc Gutman 26:19 Yeah, yeah. Mike Rohde 26:19 Some of it, Some of it was handwritten, like some of the, in the sketches, Sketchnotes, do have people's actual handwriting. But I mean, the body of the text was my, my typeface, which, you know, Delve was pretty sneaky. He found out there's a feature in this interfaces you can do called contextual alternates, and some, some software like our page layout software, will use it. And what it does is you can have like 10 different A's and 10 different E's and 10 different ages, and it will randomly rotate through them to make the make the typeface look more random. So especially important for a handwritten style typeface to you know, not like not the same as over and over again, it would actually rotate through I think he, I think he kept it at like four is four characters for each letter that can potentially spin in there randomly. So it gives it a little bit more of a random feel to it, which I thought was kind of a neat little nuance that nobody but me and delve and now your listeners will know about. Marc Gutman 27:19 No, I think that's fascinating. I never knew that that was possible. And just like the or even, you know, just technology, like there's such a custom aspect to it yet. It's it's really brought to us via technology. It's incredible to me. So you mentioned this a little bit. But, you know, what's what's challenging about writing a book like this or writing a book in general? Like, what don't we know? Mike Rohde 27:43 Well, I would say this, if you're thinking about writing a book, I encourage you to do it, because I think I never thought I would write a book. And here I am an author of two books. So I think there is definitely there are definitely books in people. So I would encourage you to do it. Mike Rohde 27:56 But I would also go into suggest you go into it clear, I didn't know that writing a book is a huge undertaking. It's like walking the Appalachian Trail or climbing a mountain. And I say that in the sense that the thing that I learned about writing the first and then the second book was if you're used to pulling all nighters and doing projects, forget it, it doesn't work that way. I, I kind of grew up in the design business where you could like pull all nighters and do like an annual report in a weekend or, you know, stuff like that, you could pull it off, right? You cannot do that with a book, it just doesn't, it won't accept that option. You can do an all, you know, you can spend all weekend and write something, but it's going to be a long haul. So basically know that it's going to be a long haul and sort of plan accordingly. What I found really valuable for me was having a team that would sort of keep me on track and make sure that I was doing the things that I was doing. So editors, editors are hugely important. If you think you can get away without an editor and you're writing a book, then you're fooling yourself. You need editors, both copy editors to make sure you're not saying dumb things to you know, other other editors who make sure that your concepts makes sense and hold up and challenge you and say, Do you really believe that? Is that really true? Like those kind of things, they're going to make your work better? Like it's a pain in the moment, but it's better in the long run. So I think a good team is really important if you're going to write a book, even if you have to assemble it yourself. And then I would say the probably the last thing is, well, I'll say two more things. The next thing is you have to know that in a long haul project like this, it's all about progress. It's not about achieving it. Like I said, you can't pull the weekender and knock out a book, I guess you could but it might be a bad book. But it's gonna take lots of revisions and lots of grinding. You just have to be like, happy with progress, like, Hey, I made progress today. You know, even if it's writing a page or whatever it might be like look at the progress. And know that if you continue along that path that's going to build up into a whole book. And I would say the last thing is, when you write a book and you're done with the book, you're only have done because the other half is promotion. And often that's actually harder than writing the book. So, you know, know that promoting is going to be a ton of work. And that it, it requires a lot of effort to do that as well. And, you know, something I learned in that space was don't do everything, all the ones like so don't have all your podcasts launched on the first day, like spread them out. So they sprinkled through the, you know, a month or something. So it seems like you're everywhere for a month, right? That's gonna be probably your, your best option to get people's attention, you know, repeated repeated action, in their mind is sort of what where it's at. So there's some wisdom for people who are thinking about book, writing and creation. It's definitely worthwhile when you're done. But it's definitely a journey when you're going through it. And if that's okay, I think it's good to have those lifetime experiences where it's, you can't do it in weekend, you can do it over months. Marc Gutman 30:56 Yeah, and so much more to a book than just as you mentioned, writing it, you know, there's the promoting and thinking about what you're going to do. That's, that's great advice. And thank you so much for sharing that. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. I'd like you to take a moment and think back and do you have a clear recollection of like when this thing sketchnoting was born? When you look down in your notebook? And you're like, I've got a Sketchnote! Mike Rohde 32:28 I actually do. And it's the funny thing is is like it actually started earlier than I realized, but I just didn't know what it was. And that that actually tracks with so many people that I've met that said, oh, I've been doing sketchnoting for so long. And I just never knew what to call it, which is a great feeling. Right? I was sort of the lucky one that got to name it and the name that stuck. But I do remember that actually, the first sketchnote that I call a Sketchnote is one I did in early 2007. Mike Rohde 32:53 That's really where I think it started, where I intentionally went to a conference in Chicago, from Milwaukee on the train design conference, with a different mindset around note taking up into that point, for probably three, four years, I'd somehow gotten myself to a place where I wrote like everything down and I use the pencil so I could race mistakes. And I had a giant notebook. Like and it was a huge burden I hate I was really good at it. And I hated it. It was the worst. And so early in 2007, I found that I can't take it anymore. I got to do something else. And as a designer, I'm always faced with constraints and restrictions. You know, you can only have this many colors, you got to use that typeface. You got to use my ugly logo, all those kind of things are always in my life, right? So I thought, well, what if I put a if I put some constraints on myself, what would happen if I did that? So I thought, let's now that you know, it's time I didn't think about it. But I kind of did it. George Costanza, remember that episode of George Costanza decides to do everything opposite of what he normally does. And then he like, starts dating a beautiful woman and gets the job of his dreams. You know, all these good things are happening because he's doing the opposite. It felt kind of like that, where I said, Okay, I'd normally carry a big book, what if I carry a pocket book? I usually use a pencil. What if I use a gel pen. So those are sort of my first two decisions. I sort of boxed myself in. On the train. All I had with me was a pocket moleskin that I bought, I don't know, a month before and didn't know what to do that because it was too beautiful. I finally had a purpose for the thing. And then I had these jeetu gel pens if that. Okay, I'm just going to take these two things. I'm going to show up at this conference and see what comes out because I really wasn't sure. And once I sat down, the interesting side effect of these two limitations was I was faced with the fact that I couldn't write everything down that I normally did. And that when I did write stuff down, it couldn't I couldn't erase it because it was ink. So it's sort of put my put my mindset in a different place. My mindset now shifted to I need to really be thinking about what's being said right now. I can't, I can't just write everything down and maybe describe Ever later, I got to think about it. Now I got to really listen closely, I have to really analyze what they're saying, decide if it's worth me putting on the page, because I'm using a pen, and then put it down. And from my perspective, I suddenly had tons of free time, because before I was just writing, writing, writing, writing, I never had time to think twice. So suddenly, for me, I had all this free time to do like, the lettering that I loved, and drawing images that were popping up in my head or sketching something from one of the slides. And I, I really loved it, I got to the end of that day, and I just felt like this is the this is the solution. I have to keep doing this. And I kept looking for opportunities to go to conferences and kept trying it. And that was really that conference in 2007 was really where I think sketchnoting was born for me, intent that, you know, with intention. And when I look back to my college years, when I was in that, remember I said I switched from printing to design. I happened to dig up my old notebooks from those years of after sketchnoting and sort of taken off and said, holy cow, I was doing sketchnoting I was doing this exact same thing in my classes. I was trying. And I was writing and I was doing lettering, and I'm like, how did I forget that? What what happened to me over these last couple years. And I think looking back now I sort of realized that the technology side of me sort of took over I got into palm pilots and powerbook duo's and I you know, I started typing everything. And you know that I just sort of shifted my mind to a different place. So when I went back to analog and books, I just kept following the assumption that I had a keyboard in my hands, and I could write everything instead of really realizing that, you know, that thing I did in college is actually really effective for remembering and studying from. And I ended up not realizing that I would stumble back into what I actually had been doing before. So I didn't call it sketchnoting back then. But it really, when I look back at it, it is what I was doing. So I think I was probably doing it all through college and probably back into high school to some degree in some form or another but never really intentionally, like as a thing like I would call 2007, where I really put all the pieces together and realize, hey, this really works. And I was aware of it. Before I sort of just did it naturally. And accidentally here is where I really did it with intentionality. Marc Gutman 37:20 Yeah. And so if you weren't calling it sketchnoting, at that time, when did you have a name for it? Or were you just like, Hey, this is just the way I do it. Mike Rohde 37:27 That was just the way I did it. I didn't have a name for it. It's kind of funny. Marc Gutman 37:31 And then so you're, you're Mike, you're doing your thing, you are taking notes in your own visual way. And like most great things I have to imagine, I mean, you're doing it for you. I mean, you're not probably thinking, Hey, this is a speaking tour. This is a this is a book like when does it become a thing? Like when do you start to get? Where does it start to become like a real part of your life? Both? I guess it's already become a part of your life from a conference standpoint, but like professionally, like what all of a sudden, do you become like the Sketchnote guy? Mike Rohde 38:03 Well, there's sort of a couple of points along the way. So this is early 2007, when this first thing happened. And I kept on wanting to try it. So I think it was in the summer or the spring or late spring, early summer. And the guys who are on Basecamp. Now that used to be called 37 signals, they decided to do a conference at their at a space that they had access to for like 150 people. And so I said, I'd really like these guys. And I said I'm going to go do this conference. And this would be a good chance to test out this note thing, the sketchnoting thing that I'm playing with and see how it works in this kind of setting. Right. So I went to that event and I did that event and Jim Kou doll who's friends with the base camp, guys. They're also Chicago firm. They're like an ad firm. They do. They're the guys behind the field notes. If you know what field notes are. Marc Gutman 38:49 Yeah, my friend Aaron draplin, who's been on the show has also partnered— Mike Rohde 38:52 Yeah, partnered up with those guys. So they could all partners found my Sketchnotes on Flickr somehow. And they put it on their blog, and then 37 signals whose Basecamp they put it on theirs. And that's that was a really big bump in like awareness, people started being aware of it. And I kept doing it and doing it. And I went to South by Southwest that following spring, I think 2008 and did it and I published it again, at the time I was publishing on Flickr and I use Creative Commons, I intentionally use Creative Commons because at the time, it was pretty popular. And the thing that I liked about it was I retained all my rights to the work. But I could build in usage rights right into the licensing. And what that meant at the time was bloggers, if they found the images compelling. Mike Rohde 39:40 They could just use an embed code and stick it right in their blog, and they wouldn't have to ask me for any permission because I'd already pre given it to them. So that was really important in spreading the concept and that that got back to the South by Southwest leadership. So the next year they said Hey, Mike, if we give you a pass this off by Will you come in sketchnote officially, like spend the whole week and just capture the experience of being here. Like, yeah, sure. So that was my next event. So that was a really important one. Because that's South by Southwest in 2009. I wanted to see like, could I handle this for a whole week, and what would get tired first, my brain or my hands. And it turned out, my brain actually got more tired than my physical body did, just from all the thinking and analyzing, but it was a blast, I really loved it. And that, so that was a really important point, because then that sort of spread it even further. And then it was around 2011, or something like that is when the book stuff happened. in between there, there was a point where I created Sketchnote army, and that was basically this desire to share other people's work, I had been sharing and pumping my own work. And I just felt like, it's not so much fun to be doing this alone. I mean, I started seeing other people doing and it seemed like there's a movement, and maybe I should be the one to capture this in one place. Because it was really hard at the time, around 2008 2009. To find this stuff. You just had to scrounge everywhere. I thought, well, what if what would happen if I invited people to submit their stuff, and we just put it on our website, then you just go to one place, and you could see the stuff. So that was an important moment in 2009. And shortly after that, the book deal came out. And in between there, you know, I did illustration work for the guys that Basecamp for rework, and then later remote. So that was those are also, you know, points that sort of brought awareness to that work, right. So they I think they all sort of added up over time, and it just kept building. And once I wrote the book, you think after doing all that work on the book, and there's a video that we did, that suddenly would take off, and I think it did pretty well. But, you know, nobody knew who I was, other than maybe they saw a book. So it took a little while for it to kick in. But it just kept on growing and growing. I think the idea was that Seth Godin always talks about if the idea is good, you're probably not going to be able to stop it. And I think that's sort of what what happened, right? I sort of solved the problem in my own life, which was I hated taking notes in this old, dreary way. And I found a way that made sense to me. And I figured, well, it solved the problem for me, there's probably a few other people out there that it could help. And it turned out there were a lot of few other people out there, right. So I think that's why it just kept on growing and growing. And I just look back at these certain pivot points where it almost like, you know, hit a point and accelerated, and it just continues to do that. And now, there's tons of people doing it and teaching it and sharing it. And I really like that I love having lots of voices in the space, I think it just verifies that it's a real thing. And it's definitely a benefit to people who adopt it. And it makes you know, being in a community is way more fun than being all alone. So there's lots of benefits to the way that it's worked out over these many years. Marc Gutman 42:48 Yeah, and yeah, and I can even my own experience, it's like, I've been a part of some long term education classes and things like that. And there's just something magical about the Sketchnotes, right, like, people see me doing it, and they're drawn to it. Like, I think everyone wants to do it as well. Like, it's like this universal way of, of communicating. That's just so incredible. And so, when did you coin it? Sketchnoting? What, like, when did you be like, when were you like, this is the name? Mike Rohde 43:16 I think, actually. So it's really funny that all that stuff happened in the first that first 2007 I think the first 2007 was where I realized, it feels like I should call it Sketchnoting. Before that, it's funny, like, up to that point, I was it was like the promo name for it was sketch tunes, like I was it was sort of like was cartoons and sketching. But when I did this event, it was a little less like cartoons and just more like sketching and noting and that word just came to me. So it was right after right at that event, when I just really started calling it Sketchnoting. And I don't know, for whatever reason, that name seemed to make sense to a lot of people and they liked it even over the more established names that existed before like graphic recording, which is kind of a different thing. or visual notetaking like, you know, Sketchnoting just has a little bit more of a branding ring to it, I guess, you know, it's less clunky and it's descriptive and it's concise and it just seems to work so that's that's sort of when it popped up was right at about that same time as the first Sketchnotes kind of appeared in my head. I had a name for them, so I guess it was destined to be. Marc Gutman 44:25 Destined to be, and so is Sketchnoting now your your full time gig, is that what you do for a living? Mike Rohde 44:32 It isn't actually it's something I do on the side. I do pretty steadily on the side. It's kind of my side, my side gig. I primarily I work as a principal designer, doing user experience and service design for large organization. I really like it I like working in a team I like I still have a real love for design in general service design, specifically solving you know the company work for isn't a big industrial company. Mike Rohde 45:01 So there's all kinds of opportunities to apply these ideas. And, you know, visualization opportunities like crazy, because so much stuff is just bad PowerPoint. So the opportunity to do illustrations and Sketchnote and even, you know, doing using my design skills in that space is really, really powerful. And I see lots of upside and opportunity. So a lot of why stay there. And you know, I've got a family as well. So it's good steady work, and it allows me to do this stuff on the side. And so far, it's worked out pretty well. Marc Gutman 45:33 Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. And so do you have, you know, I know you're probably not like your children, right? You're probably not supposed to talk about your favorite Sketchnote. But do you have a favorite that you just, you look back and you're like, you know what, that's that's the full expression of Mike. That's, that's, that's it. Mike Rohde 45:52 There's a couple of them. But if I if I was forced to pick one, there's one that's in my Flickr feed, that I still love that still has really fun memories for me. And it's the story behind it is that I was doing a work project in the Oakland area in San Francisco, and we ended up going to shape nice, we couldn't get into the main shape, nice. But we got into the cafe, which is like a smaller venue, we got reservations for myself and to work colleagues. And I happen to have my notebook along. So I pulled my notebook out. And after I would finish a course, I would sketch out what it was and built this whole little two page Sketchnote in my notebook. And it just really has like a captures everything like a captures a moment in time a really great meal. With two good friends. If you look at it, it's not really it's all black and white. So there's no color. Mike Rohde 46:40 Some of the stuff that I drew is not really super detailed. Like it's not a standard illustration. It's not a piece of art, it's more of a, it's a Sketchnote. It's like the purest expression of a Sketchnote for me, and I really, every time I see that I'm like, wow, that that really turned out really good. And it was actually it's kind of old. It's like 2012 it was right around the time. Not too not too long, before I started on book work, so I was really fortunate that I had the opportunity and that one among others. There's some other ones that I really like as well. But that if I was forced to pick one, that would be it. Marc Gutman 47:14 All right, paper or iPad, you know, I was really I got your headshot in for the the press kit. And you're standing with an iPad. And you know, I I don't I'm not surprised I'm actually using an iPad right now. And I think it has Oh, by the way, there you are. But as we're talking I'm drawing Mike but um, yeah, I pad or paper or both? Mike Rohde 47:38 I'm a both person I think of I started think like when the iPad Pro and the pencil came out, that was the moment where the iPad became useful to me as a drawing tool. Like I'd used it before, for reading for like, part of my book, I actually typed in an iPad with the keyboard. So I mean, it had been useful to me. But as a illustration tool, a serious illustration tool when the pencil came out, which I think is 2017 or 18. That's when I picked it up. And I saw the value. And I always think of like, you know, I think there's sort of a desire always to like say, Oh, the iPad is a paper killer. It's like, Why does it have to kill it? Like, why can't I use both? Right? Mike Rohde 48:15 You know, you go and do a professional mechanics toolbox, they're not going to say wrench or hammer. Right there, they need both of them. Because in some cases, you need a wrench. In some cases, you need a hammer, sometimes you need a six point wrench because man that bolt is on their heart, and you've shot it with some penetrating oil, and you're gonna have to wail on that thing. And like a adjustable wrench isn't going to work, right. So even within wrenches, there's specific things right. So I think of like the iPad is sort of one tool, and it depends on what I'm doing. Like if I need to do lots of changes. So like client work, or have to go back and modify things or move things or I want the ability to shift things, that is often the best choice. And then there's other times when I want to use paper when I don't want to be potentially distracted, right? The problem with an iPad is you're like a second away from Twitter or Facebook or who knows what, right so and the battery can run out. I mean, they made the batteries last a long time. But if you forgot to charge it, you know, now all of a sudden, you've got a Karen feeding issue, write up a notebook and a pen, you know, it's probably gonna run the other. The other funny thing I always say is like, you know, you know how many pieces of paper and beautiful pens you could buy for the cost of an iPad, like you have a lifetime supply for what you pay for an iPad. Now, that's not to knock the iPad, it is a valuable tool, but it's always again about what's the right what's the right purpose for the tool. And so I look at it as a spectrum all the way from, you know, paper to an iPad and I choose the thing that makes sense, or that I feel is right and I just like having options, I guess. Marc Gutman 49:50 Yeah, and that makes complete sense. But you know, you're talking about paper and, and pen and we were talking right before we recorded about just you know Kind of this there's something magical about pen and paper, you know. And so it was what's your favorite combination the gf got going right now. And if you're anything like me, it changes like mine has changed. Yeah, over time, you know, but but I kind of come back to the same, the same kind of combo more often than that. Mike Rohde 50:17 Well, the last couple years, I've become an ambassador for this company called Norland, it's a German company that makes markers. For graphic recorders. Graphic recording is basically like sketchnoting. Except graphic recorders typically work at large scale, they typically work in front of the room. So everybody watches them while they doing while they're doing it, they have to be very skilled at listening and trying. And these tools are built for those people. But they realize the value of sketchnoting and they're starting to build more tools for Sketchnoters. So they have a variety of tools that I really like the fine one line, which is designed for sketchnoters in mind, have some really nice tools. Mike Rohde 50:53 The thing I like about New Zealand too, is every one of them now is refillable. So you can buy bottles of ink and refill your pens and just keep reusing them. If your nibs get squishy, because they're felted you can pull the nibs out and put new nibs in so they're in effect. They're like lifetime investments, kind of like the tools I was mentioning, right. So those are really great tools and the the colors and the quality of the pigments are really great. So it's not a hard thing to choose. As far as gel pens go, you're exactly right, I started jumping around. For the last little while I've been really into good old Paper Mate flares like you had in junior high school black paper, mate flair and boxes. And I just you know, as they get too mushy, I just go to the next one. And they just have a really nice, there's something about the feel of it that I really like. So that's another one. And then I'm always like checking the latest gel pens and trying stuff out. The latest one that I really liked is Sharpie of all pens has come out with a gel pen. And the one that I stumbled onto is a 1.0. So if you know your thicknesses of pens, it's really wide pen. But I love it because it just lays down this nice black line, it's really juicy. But because it's gel like dries nearly immediately, so I don't have to worry about smearing it so much. So that's sort of my latest gel pen that I'm into. And then as far as books go, I did a Kickstarter campaign with my friend Mike Ciano last year. And we basically designed a sketch notebook that's ideal for sketchnoting. So it's really thick, hundred 60 GSM kind of a thick, almost cardstock like paper and bright white, and a polymer cover that's really tough, and then guides inside, but the paper inside is really fantastic. So actually really, I really use my own notebooks to do sketchnoting with and then for, you know, if I'm doing bullet journaling, which I do every day, I've been using the leuchtturm brand, a bullet bullet journal or the dot grid books. And then there's also no Island is just released one that's a little bit bigger, that I've been using for a while since they sent me one as an ambassador, and I've been testing it, it's been actually really nice. It's a little bit bigger than a typical five and a half by half sheet so I get a little bit more space. So I've been enjoying that. So those are a couple couple things that I've been using pretty regularly and quite enjoy. Marc Gutman 53:11 Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, I have long been electrum fan. And that's been my go to book but I've actually got one of yours on the way and I'm very excited to to try that. Mike Rohde 53:22 I'd love to hear what you think of the paper and all that stuff as a product and branding guy. Marc Gutman 53:26 Yeah, as well as the Newland pens. Yeah, I was hoping that pink I like to make extra colors pink, you know, I like that a lot. And that didn't have it, but it had smooth. So I got some I got some other stuff that I'm very excited about. And like I were talking about before the show started I could just really geek out and try different pens. I like to you know, my goat my go to that I keep coming back to is actually the the pilot Gtech that has that like kind of scratchy feel, and it's a thinner line but like I have less control as I do because I like I'll crosshatch or that's all fill it in. But like or even in your technique, I'll do multiple lines down. But now I also feel like that's a little bit for me was like a more of a beginner pen less control, I can control the ink and, and I do like playing with Federline pens as well Mike Rohde 54:12 it is interesting how like the pen you use can impact the way you draw. So like a real thick pen will sort of produce a certain kind of a, it almost puts you in I'm in a mind state or something. And if you use a thin pen, it's put you in a different mind state. You wouldn't think so. But I've noticed it's subtle, but it actually is there. And it's it's it also sounds like if you and I went into an Office Max or an Office Depot, we'd be the guys standing at the pens the pen aisle like for an hour like look oh look at that one. Marc Gutman 54:41 Never tire I've got like pen cases for like even like like armful of pens. Yeah, I keep finding like pen cases with like pens that I packed for a trip that like then I like sit down I pick up I'm like oh my gosh, like I've got all these pens like I forgot that I even like packed for a trip just in case you know. So, Mike as we as we come to this Our time here. What's next for sketchnoting? Where do you see this going? We're ready. Hope it goes? Mike Rohde 55:07 Well, I'm really excited about a couple things. So one thing that's really excited and I have a little tiny bit to do with, but actually pretty small is it's moving into education. And the reason it's moving into education is because teachers are like totally crazy for sketchnoting. And they're crazy for it because of a couple things. Because the teachers told me this, that they see their students really embracing it, their students are actually much more engaged when they teach, because they're being given the the right to do doodling in class. Mike Rohde 55:41 Now, of course, it's directed toward the subject, but they get to do drawing and doodling and stuff. So they get engagement. And then the, the other benefit that teachers seem to be really excited about is, when they use sketchnoting. In the classroom, the students actually remember a lot more, right. So it becomes this really great tool that gives them the ability to analyze and process which a teacher wants and then remember more. So when they go to a test, they can actually do better. In fact, I have one friend in the Fresno school district in the science department that does something called sketch booking, which uses the sketching technique in it. And I believe she lets the students like as they learn stuff in science they get, they have to draw it in their sketchbook and it gets graded. And then a test time, I believe they have open book testing. So they give them a test. And they can have their sketchbook there, anything they write is fair game to reference. So like, you think about the virtuous cycle that gets created there where a student knows that the stuff is going to be on a test, but they're going to pay attention. And they're going to put that stuff in their notebook. Because if I can look at it in my notebook, and I caught it, like I could, you know, really do well on the test, right? Ultimately, it's, can you analyze and make sense of the world, right? That's really what education is coming to, if you think about it, so teachers are really excited. That's got me super excited. And then I guess the second thing that I'm excited about is doing more teaching. So when the pandemic came in March, just like everyone was kind of shocked. And it took a little while to kind of settle in. But I started noticing all these local meetups Visual Thinking Copenhagen, or the visual jam, or a variety of different events that normally would be, you know, 15 people in a, in the back of a restaurant in Copenhagen, and nobody ever knew about it, except them, suddenly, they have these international audiences, right? 100 people coming from around the world being part of these communities that is super exciting. And I think the opportunity for us, even though it's not a great situation, to have to be forced to be in this digital space and figure out training and teaching and cameras and microphones, that the the benefit is going to be it's going to actually get people connected in in the future and give opportunities for people who want to like me to start doing teaching and reach people that I might never have reached because I probably wouldn't fly to their city right now I can do online courses and teach stuff like lettering or layout or whatever, whatever the students want, really. So I'm really excited about this opportunity for the last eight months to build up my technical skills and technical gear. And, you know, having tested it to be able to now feel confident that I can teach so that's really exciting, as well for me. Marc Gutman 58:34 And that is Mike Rohde, author of Sketchnotes. Mike and I nerded out on design, pens, AV gear and brand strategy. After the show stopped recording. I could have talked for hours with him. He's such a fascinating individual. And he really made me rethink. Maybe I'm a designer after all. And you see that's the power of Mike Rohde. He's a teacher at heart. And the best teachers are the ones who can see in you what you can't see in yourself. Mike is on a mission to teach, to teach sketchnoting to teach design. I don't think he really cares what he teaches. As long as he's teaching. It's his inner nature. And we're all better off for it is a big thank you to Mike Rohde and the sketchnote team. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Next, I'll be taking one of Mike's workshops that will have taken place by the time this airs, but check out his website for upcoming workshops and opportunities to learn sketchnoting. We will link to all things Mike Rohde and sketchnoting in the show notes, including his books over at Amazon as well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to Visit our website @ www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 054: Andy Starr | Level C | Different Is So Important

BGBS 054: Andy Starr | Level C | Different Is So Important

Andy Starr is a provocateur in the niche landscape where education, business, and brand co-exist. He sees the value in being different and finds comfort in creating change. Even as a kid, he liked being the black sheep. He didn’t identify with the lead singer in a band or the striker making goals in soccer, he always wanted to be the drummer in the back or the goalie with a different uniform.

With 17+ years of agency experience, Andy continues to move the needle forward with co-founder/brand master Marty Neumeier, as they educate leaders in the evolution of brand within business through their platform, Level C. You’ll learn that Andy believes in more than just using strategy to sell. He believes in people, storytelling, and provoking emotion. Andy believes that provocation can be good and different can be important, inspiring us to ask ourselves how can we each embrace our differences to provide value to the world.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• Andy considers himself to be a provocateur in the professional education space. To him, this means being different for the sake of being valuable.
• In the professional education realm, what needs to change is access, quality of content, relevance of content, and applicability of concepts. Andy and Marty Neumeier care about progressing professional education through the lense of brand.
• On the higher academic level, much of what is studied focuses on theory. The purpose of this is to teach you to think critically and prepare you for a world that is constantly evolving. With this in mind, analytic thought will always be relevant.
• Andy grew up in a conservative, change-resistant part of the world. Growing up, he always wanted to do the complete opposite of what was expected of him. When he learned the payoff of being different it transformed his whole world.
• Andy was always enraptured by the drums. He resonated with drummers the most but didn’t begin playing himself until college. When he did, he expresses it as meeting himself for the first time.
• While in law school, Andy helped his girlfriend with her graphic design clients and found more interest in that than what he was studying. She introduced him to The Brand Gap and he fell in love with the book.
• Marty was a great influence to Andy, and he messaged him many times with his accomplishments to prove himself worthy of being mentored.
• When Andy first visited Marty’s apartment, he found a highly used, beat-up version of The Brand Gap that he thought may have been a first edition. He later learned that it belonged to the one and only, Steve Jobs.
• Level C’s purpose is to bring the role of brand to the C suite so that business is done with the people in mind. By doing so, real change can happen within business, and in turn, the world.
• Brands do not control their audience, they influence them (and even that has a limit). A brand’s stance will provide more context to where you stand in regards to their position, whether that is with or against them.

Resources

LinkedIn: Andy Starr

Instagram: @the_andy_starr

Level C Website: levelc.org

Quotes

[15:55] Different matters because we think that there’s something in it for us. Whether it’s noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. When I realized that, when that was revealed to me and for me, my whole perspective on everything changed.

[19:25] I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. Even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist, or the lead singer, or the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that I felt in my chest, in my gut.

[51:56] What we’re trying to do with Level C is we’re trying to put in, or depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand into the C suite. To restore the role of brand into a position of influence on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side…to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think, and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen.

[53:01] We’re not looking to change the world. We’re looking to change a part of business because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed.

Podcast Transcript

Andy Starr 0:02
That romantic sense of the trajectory of my life or what I thought that trajectory needed to be, where it was always there, I couldn’t shake it no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right. And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep. And I honestly couldn’t necessarily tell you why that was, but it always was.

Marc Gutman 0:54
Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman.

I’m Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Andy Starr, co founder and partner of the brand education company Level C. And while I have your ear, if you’re listening, I’m assuming you like our show. And if that premise holds true, then please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It is your subscriptions that make this show possible. Alright, enough of that stuff. Let’s get back to the show. Andy Starr’s bio describes him as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. And while that is a super cool bio, I think he’s so much more than that.

Yes, he’s a provocateur. But he’s also a thought leader, an empath, an educator, an entrepreneur, a brand nerd, a people person, the partner to branding legend, an author, Marty Neumeier. I hope I can call him a friend and he calls me the same. But if you ask Andy who he is, he’ll probably say none of all that and simply tell you, he’s a musician. With 17 plus years of agency and in house experience across multiple categories of client business, including special focus on nonprofit and higher education. Andy is equal parts strategist, creative manager, and storyteller. I first met Andy is one of his students via the Level C program.

Level C is an education platform. They’re a company and a certification focused on all things brand. I’ve personally attended, and surprisingly, graduated both levels one and two. And all I can tell you is that there’s something special about what they are building. How Andy sees the world. In his relationship with brand Master, Marty Neumeier. Andy is an accomplished brand professional in his own right. And well on his way to becoming a brand icon. Just don’t tell him that. And this is his story.

I am here with Andy Starr. He describes himself as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. He is also the co founder and partner at Level C and we’ll talk a bit about that. But Andy, what is a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand?

Andy Starr 4:20
That’s what I like to think of a brand professional as being, someone who pokes the bear, someone who’s looking to, you know, everyone’s favorite word, zag. You know, when if everyone is doing this over here, I want to be the guy doing this over there, okay? And just you know, sometimes being different for the sake of being different, but professionally being different for the sake of being valuable. And that’s what this whole thing is it’s provocation. provocation can be bad, but provocation can be really good. It can be valuable, it can mean something. And that’s how I see myself I just see myself as a provocateur for Hire less for hire these days, just, I’m getting tired of doing client work. You know, I want to focus more on being provocative in the professional education space.

So, you know, and that is that is where we find ourselves, you know, at the intersection of business and education. You know, education is a business, I’ve had several education clients, universities and colleges that that refuse to acknowledge that they’re a business at the end of the day, that makes my job as a brand provocateur more difficult. So when Marty and I started this, I was just like, let’s just call it what it is, let’s let’s, let’s not gloss, spin, blow smoke. Education in business is where we are. It’s what we do. And it’s what we’re looking to transform, you know, then leave leave, leave the bullshitters to play in other spaces that they just make up, or that they they ignore. So that’s, that’s my jam.

Marc Gutman 6:00
Yeah. And so, you know, you’re talking about being a provocateur in the education space, which leads me to believe that there’s something wrong with the education space, at least as we see it today. That holds true, please correct me if I’m incorrect in making that assumption. What’s wrong with education today? Like, what are you trying to change?

Andy Starr 6:19
Oh, man, you don’t have enough time in your podcast. The big problem with education is its inability, or refusal to accept the fact that it needs to change. And there are 1,000,001 ways in which it needs to change, it needs to change from an administrative perspective, it needs to change from an academic perspective, it needs to change from a financial perspective. And it needs to change from a distribution perspective. So for us, in the professional education, part of the sandbox, we believe that education should be a life long thing, it should go on forever, we should, you should no one should ever want to stop learning.

Most people don’t. But access, quality of content, relevance of content, applicability of concepts, that needs to change. And we’re not proposing that we, we are like the savior of education, we don’t think that we’re the savior of professional education, we want to, we want to practice what we preach and live up to what we believe. And so when it comes to professional education, we want to keep it focused on you know, we’re not branding and marketing and sales and advertising content and social media. rebrand, and we’re not, we don’t want to take a how to brand approach to education, we just want to say, here’s how you think about education, right? So when we think about our academic perch, we’re not giving people prescriptions, we’re just giving them food for thought. Okay, but that’s not really out there.

There are people who do it, you know, there, there are outlets, there are providers that do it. But there are fewer and farther between. and at a higher academic level, like MBA programs, there are really no MBA programs that talk about brand. If you want to find brand and Wharton’s MBA program, you have to specialize more focus in marketing, you have to take marketing courses at Wharton. And, you know, hopefully you hear about brand at some point, but they don’t talk about how to think about brand. That’s just a loose example. So it’s a big mountain to climb, dude. And Marty and I care very much about education, I especially care about education, my professional background and my family’s background. I have educators in my family, my father was a professor, my grandfather was a university founder, he fell, he co founded a university and was an academic dean. And it’s, I just care about it, it just matters. And so that’s the space we want to play in.

Marc Gutman 9:07
And I definitely want to get into that. And we might go there real soon here. And as he is you’re talking like this idea of education remaining. You mentioned a lot of great points, you know, applicability and accessibility and just availability, but this, this idea of like education, having to remain relevant, and I’m personally just obsessed with this idea of like, relevance, and what does that mean, and how do you stay relevant? Because what struck me as you were your speaking is that Yeah, like our education gets stale really quick, especially in today’s environment. It’s not like, back in the day when the university held the professors and the university, you held the books and you had to go there and that was the only access you had to that information. And then the world was also moving equally as slow. But now, you know, we can we can Learn from a TED talk from someone around the world from someone we’ve never had access to put that in, in motion change the world. And so this idea of like staying relevant, and not even really sure, I have a question for you at the end of this is just fascinating to me. And that, you know, that really seems to be a huge challenge for people in the education space.

Andy Starr 10:20
For sure. And like you said, one of the catalysts of that, you know, are sources of that challenge, is because unlike 30 4050 years ago, the world is just hyper connected. I don’t even know if that’s accurate. And it’s just, we are all connected. We move and we think, and we learn and we consume at faster and faster speeds. Right? And so it raises the question of the role of immediacy, in education, right? Because and, and speed and immediacy, I think, are part of its relevance, right? How quickly can I have access to the educational content? How quickly can I consume it? How quickly can I be deemed to be proficient? And how quickly can I get out back in the real world, and actually use it and make a difference, bring value and earn something in return? Right?

Those questions, raise 1000 more questions. So it’s, it’s complicated. It’s it’s super, super tricky. But, you know, another thing about relevance is, and this is something that we, we’ve actually tackled in our first level masterclass. For the teams that worked on higher education as a category to disrupt, right, we’ve heard things about kind of the cadence, or the formulaic structure of education, and this is something that Marty feels especially strong about, traditionally, is and even today, kind of the model of education is, you know, at that at the college and beyond level is like, you study theory, right? You spend four years, two years, you know, three years unless you studied theory, and then you go out in the world, and you learn gain us skills, right? But while you’re studying that theory, it’s like, What am I supposed to do with this? How does this how does how is this theory relevant to the world that I’m about to land in? Or that it’s about to fall on me one way or another? How do I how do I survive just with this theory?

And so you know, there’s one school of thought, that says, you know, learn the skills first, and then continue lifelong learning and learn that theory, have a greater appreciation, a better ability to think critically and analytically. Right. But the flip side to that argument is, well, that’s what a liberal arts education is in liberal arts teaches you how to think critically. And analytically, you’re reading about history and philosophy, and literature, you’re not doing that just for shits and giggles, right, you’re not doing it solely to feed the ego of a tenured professor, although that that is part of it. It prepares you for a world that is constantly evolving.

A world in which the kind of one career from start to finish doesn’t exist the way it used to, with a few exceptions. And you have to be able to think critically and analytically so that you’re flexible enough to kind of jump from one chapter of your career to the next from one role to another, from one category to another, and in some cases, making a complete career change from one to another. And I did that, right. And so we’ve altruistically, we sleep very well at night. Because we know that what we’re doing is righteous, it’s self righteous, we want to make a valuable contribution in this space. But at the same time, it’s not that we’ve set ourselves up for failure is that it’s a huge mountain to climb, and we will most certainly never get to the peak of it. But that’s okay. That’s okay.

Marc Gutman 14:17
So much to unpack there and so, I’m not even gonna try. What I’d like to do is—

Andy Starr 14:21
Talk to my therapist, I’ll call her!

Marc Gutman 14:25
I’d like to shift gears a little bit. And, you know, you talked a little bit about your family and your family history. But you know, and you also mentioned that part of being a provocateur is is being different and so when you were young, were you always striving to be different as a child. I mean, was this was this ingrained in you? Is like eight year old Andy always pushing boundaries?

Andy Starr 14:46
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in a relatively conservative minded white collar family. Dad was a lawyer mom was a social worker, and We lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and it was a relatively conservative, change resistant part of the world change resistant parents. And yeah, I was kind of a black sheep. I just, you know, if everyone told me to do one thing, I just wanted to do the complete opposite. I liked feeling and being different. But that’s as a kid, you know, that I didn’t understand the value in that. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t really until I got into this work. 2030 years later that I understood, why being different, wanting to feel different, look different, act different. Think different, is so important, and why I cared about it so much without understanding why and and, you know, Marty, we talked about this in the class, it’s, you know, human beings are hardwired to notice what’s different. But it’s the why we’re hardwired, we different matters, because we think that there’s something in it for us. Whether it’s noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. And that when I when I realized that when that was kind of revealed to me, and for me, my whole perspective, my perspective on everything changed on life on career. And then when I realized how I could weaponize that and use that in this space, like, everything just kind of broke, broke open. And, but but but it, it bears it bears repeating. And like, I feel like the need to constantly say it, it’s not being different. For the sake of being different. There’s a reason for it. The reasons may be my own, right. The reasons may be a client’s goals, it kind of doesn’t matter. But there are reasons for doing it. There are reasons for wanting to do it. And there’s sure shit reasons for learning how to think about that. Right. And again, it all comes back to learning to think. But I’m not, we don’t teach you I would never teach someone how to be different. But we do talk about and I’m happy to talk about thinking about being different.

Marc Gutman 17:23
Yeah, and I think thinking about being different is the for me at least the the key idea because inherently, we don’t want to be different. I mean, our childhoods could have been very similar, except I grew up in Detroit new grew up in Philadelphia, but I remember, like, I felt different, but I didn’t want to be different, you know, and being different,there was always this ying and this Yang between like and tention between being different and people saying, that’s what makes you special. And the reality of like, we want to be part of groups, and we want to fit in and we want to be the same. And I think, you know, we can talk about this later. But I think that’s the trap brands fall into all the time is that they, they want to fit in, they want to be seen, like they they’re scared to be different. And they’re thereby they try to fit in and then they get bland and they get diluted and all these things. Things happen. So, you know, when you were a kid when you were looking around and being different, I mean, what were you into? Like, what were your interests? Like? What did you think you were gonna be? Did you think you were gonna be a provocateur for hire? Did you think you were gonna be an education? Like, what do you think you were gonna do?

Andy Starr 18:28
No, I mean, I guess Looking back, I think I had this oddly romantic sense that I would follow in my father’s footsteps. You know, I my dad was incredibly important to me. My grandfather was in both my grandfather’s were incredibly important to me. And I kind of always saw myself following in one of their footsteps, either a lawyer without knowing what that meant, or understanding why it was just, it was my, what my dad did a university Dean because that’s what his father did. Or a psychoanalyst, which is what my other grandfather did. They were, you know, that’s, that’s what I wanted to do. And I always, even through college, I had that, that that romantic sense of romance, that romantic sense of the trajectory of my life, or what I thought that trajectory needed to be. Where was always there, I couldn’t shake it, no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the to the guitarist, or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right? And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep, and I honestly couldn’t necessarily tell you Why that was but it always was in sports.

I was in soccer. I’m still a soccer geek. I played soccer since I was three. Well, when you’re a kid, everyone wants to be the striker the forward who scores the goals. I never did. I wanted to be the goalkeeper. Why? Because the goalkeeper got to wear the different shirt, the gloves. And the goalkeeper was always either the hero if he made the big save, or the goat, the bad goat, if he if he botched it and let a golden so drum, you know, the drums and being goalie in soccer. To me, they were always the same thing. All the glory, if you got it a complete, you know, complete disaster if you fuck it up. And for me, there was never I was never satisfied. I never enjoyed To me, the middle ground was boring. It was uninteresting. It’s like it was like, it was just nothing and I wanted nothing to do with it. And so my parents encouraged me to play soccer. And as a kid, they wanted me to have nothing to do with the drums because to them, the drums weren’t a real musical instrument playing the piano playing the guitar playing, you know, the violin or or saxophone. That was fine with them.

Uh, playing drums wasn’t and I didn’t get to play drums until I got to college. And when I did, I mean, I remember the first time I did it, and that actually changed my life more than almost anything. Because I felt like I was meeting myself and meeting the person I always wanted to be for the first time. Do you remember that day? I totally I, I remember the day I decided no matter what I was going to find a drum set and teach myself. And I remember, I remember the day that I sat down behind a drum set with drumsticks in my hand for the first time. Absolutely. I remember my first gig. And it was all my first my freshman year and it changed everything. It literally changed the trajectory of my life.

Marc Gutman 22:04
Where were you that first day you played the drums take us there.

Andy Starr 22:08
It was January of 1998, we had just come back from winter break. And there was a senior on campus who was a drummer in a funk band, and the funk band played on campus. And when they would it was like the thing it was like the coolest thing ever. And he you know, kind of did your your typical rock star kind of you know, playing with his shirt off sunglasses cigarette dangling from his lips. And it just drove people nuts. And I was just like, I just need to do that I was super shy. I didn’t drink I didn’t party. And it was something I always wanted to chase. But it was also a way for me to stand out on my campus. And that was important to me, I wanted to have a good college experience. And up to that point, I really wasn’t. And I knew who he was. It took me a semester to work up the courage to approach him. And I on on a January day we were we had been back on campus for like a few days. And I saw him walking and I ran out of the building. I chased him down. It was really, really cold. And I just said, “Hey, you’re the drummer in that band. I would love to learn how to play the drums. Could I maybe play on your kit a couple times and see if I can do it?” And I thought it was just gonna say no.

And he said, “Yeah, here’s the room on campus where they’re stored. Here’s the code to get in play anytime you want.” And it took me like another week to work up the courage just to go and do that. And I had no idea what I was doing. There was YouTube didn’t exist. So I couldn’t watch videos on how to do it. But I had a pair of drumsticks that I had, you know, come into my possession along the way. And I sat down. And just for some reason I knew what to do. And it was it became addictive. And I played my very first gig with people a few months later, he had heard me practicing and they wanted to know who was playing. They said, You’re really good. What do you want to jam with us? And that and that first gig, I remember the songs we played, was like it was just, it was transformative. And that’s so that’s what I wanted to do for a long time. I wanted to just be professional musician. I went to music school after college. I wanted to be in a rock band. That’s what I wanted to do.

Andy Starr 24:29
It didn’t play out that way but—

Marc Gutman 24:34

Yeah, so what happened?

Andy Starr 24:35
Well, you know music piracy, the way the industry change and 02, 03 I wanted to be a musician but I didn’t want to be a poor starving musician living out of a van driving six or 800 miles a night from gig to gig just to kind of build up that fan base. I just didn’t want that. I wanted to be a musician, not a rock star. So, but I’m still a musician and if people when people ask me like to Talk about myself. I say, you know, I’m a musician, first of Philadelphia and second, you know, and I work in brand third. That is me.

Marc Gutman 25:09
Nice. And so but you’re not in Philadelphia right now are you?

Andy Starr 25:12
No, I left Philly, I left early Jesus like, almost two years ago now. And I was making my way I’m very nomadic right now I was making my way to California through by way of Houston. My best friend lives here and I wanted to see him and I’ve just gotten stuck here with COVID. So, but I’m Philly, being from Philly is like, you know, other places. It’s like an attitude. It’s like a state of mind. So I can live it I can live and be anywhere but I’m Philly.

Marc Gutman 25:44
Feel like being stuck in Houston, because of COVID is like a great next great like Wes Anderson movie, you know? sounds incredible to me. But so you, you leave college, you go to music school, you’re pursuing your love of music, and you decide that you might have to get a real job. And so like, how do you get into like, this brand stuff. I mean, the path isn’t always obvious. And I’m guessing it wasn’t for you either.

Andy Starr 26:14
It wasn’t I still didn’t know really what brand meant. Then I left music school, I was kind of like in a funk didn’t know what I wanted to do. I didn’t want to be the lawyer that my parents wanted me to be. And my dad working in finance, he and I kind of had had a falling out a little bit we were we had a rocky thing for a few years. And he when he learned that I was going to leave music school, he asked if I would want to kind of learn his business, and maybe build a path, you know, a career and you know, some stability for myself. And I didn’t care about the business, but I cared about him. So I did it and and I liked what we were doing. I liked it. That was that was just commercial finance and, and so that was going to be the trajectory of my life. And then it’s a much longer story.

But things happen professionally with our business and with the economy at the time. And we were professionally we were the victims of fraud. And when that happened, my dad basically lost his business. And I kind of lost a pathway, if you will. And I was very angry, like ferociously angry. And I wanted revenge. And I applied to law school. And I got in. And so I was prepared to do that. And at the time, I was I was in a relationship with a girl and she worked in she was a graphic designer. And she worked like in advertising. And her father was kind of a big name in branding in the branding world. And she she kind of had her own little consultancy, and she would kind of come home from the day and I was trying to study the law. And she was complaining about her clients. And I found myself talking with her about her clients. But I was talking about it from a strategic standpoint, not from a design standpoint. And I found that I was liking that a whole lot more than studying the law between that and her father kind of encouraged me to pursue that and not to pursue the law. And I got out of the like I left law school before it was too late. And I’m really glad I did. And I started kind of doing this loosely with her still not knowing really what Brandman still not really knowing that advertising was like a whole like industry and thing that I could go do professionally.

And then one night she suggested that I read a book about branding. And it was called the brand gap. And I had never seen a book like it never heard of the author. But I started reading it and next thing I knew it was the next morning I’d stayed up all night reading it. I just couldn’t stop and that experience was probably the other thing that changed my life trajectory. Right? It I just I saw and thought now is the thing I thought about everything. I thought about business I found about people without ever having had any grounding or experience in the concept of brand and literally overnight. I knew exactly what Brandman and from from that point. I knew not only was this interesting, and that I wanted to try it I knew that I could be really good at it. I just knew that I could. It all just made sense in it in some ways. It filled in some gaps for me It helps me think about myself and where I had been in why I was the way I was right and why I am the way I am so it just when that happened when she put brand gap in my hand like that was it. Everything became crystal clear. I ended up stalking Marty for a long time. Like I stalked him online. Found him he was at his his old agency new neutron. And I emailed him and I was just like, hey, read, you know, read the brand gap, I think you’re a genius, this is what I want to do, will you be my mentor, please, I need a mentor. And I joke about it, but he basically sent me like a fuck off, I’m too busy email, he didn’t use that language. But he that was basically what he was saying.

But I didn’t care, I kept sending him messages along the way, when I would get my first agency gig when I would get my, you know, produce my first you know, copywriting project, I would just send stuff to him just to see what he would say. And occasionally, he would respond with looks good, keep it up, you know, kind of your, your, your packaged, automated response, right. But I started to try to demonstrate to him that even though I didn’t have the experience in the portfolio that a lot of other players in the space had, I thought about it differently. And I thought about it at a much higher and deeper, more impactful level. And he started to respond to me. And at one point, he invited me to come to France to a private workshop, and he was holding with, like, you know, executives, and like super high level designers. He’s like, come to the Chateau. It’ll be for a week, and you’ll, it’ll be crazy. It’ll change your life. And I didn’t go. And it’s like the one regret I have professionally. Like, I didn’t go to that. But, you know, fast forward Six years later, and look at what I’m doing with him and of all the people in the world who could be doing this episode.

Marc Gutman 31:37
Brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn’t a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business.

If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

Crazy, right? And so like six years ago, you have no should I say resume or credential? in this space, you decide that? It’s your calling, and it hits you. And how long before like Marty starts to even like, respond to you and you build that relationship. I mean, you kind of jump but I mean, how long are you like sending him like, Hey, I’m still here messages like, hey, like, I, you know, respond.

Andy Starr 33:07
I sent him, I sent the very first message to him, like in November of 2009. And then I think I was sending him maybe like one a year, up until like 2014. And I had been basically agency hopping, you know, like shop hopping in between. And then in 24 2013, I sent him something. And that’s when he responded with like, Hey, you should come to this workshop. And I, you know, I was like, I don’t think I can I’m about to start a new agency gig. You know, and he was like, if you just buy the plane ticket and just come just you don’t have don’t pay the workshop fee, just just come for free. I would have been the most junior person there. I came this close. But I was starting a new agency gig and an agency I’d really wanted to land in. And I didn’t think it was a good idea. And then I didn’t I didn’t email him. I didn’t message him for several years. And then it was in 2017.

So it was about three years ago, I had gotten tired of the agency world super tired of it. And I left and I was working at a startup. And they were the startup work in the event space. And they they they were an event business and they had physical space. And they wanted to kind of rebrand themselves, but they also wanted to evolve their product offering. And I started talking with the CEO and we were coming up with ideas of you know, how can we make this event space because at the time, like that was like super commoditized right? And we work was the was becoming the 800 pound gorilla, right? And so there was this idea of using this existing space not just for corporate meetings and events but for education and to come to To fill the schedule, with gurus across different disciplines, leading workshops, that was already happening, but here was a space and we could kind of reposition this business around that.

Well, that was cool. But that wasn’t wholly unique. And I had this idea to go one step further and find like high level gurus who are already delivering workshops and educational content, and to kind of bring them into this mix. And to do that in partnership with a local business school like a local MBA program. And the idea would be that the MBA program would underwrite a certain of these workshops, right? And allow participants to not just take the workshop, but to earn academic credit towards that schools MBA, that wasn’t really being done anywhere, by anyone or any school. And so we decided, like that was, that was a cool idea. We wanted to change it. But we had two challenges. We had to find the gurus, but we also had to find an MBA program willing to do that. So we chased the MBA program first, because to me, that was going to be the bigger lift. But fortunately, a local Philadelphia MBA program, and we had a connection, we had a meeting, we had, we made a proposal to the dean, and we said, let’s just give it a shot. Let’s do a one on one professional Ed, you know, adult education workshop in a specific topic that we all agree on. And the MBA program will give or make credit available. Let’s just see, the dean just was like, Okay, done. Let’s try it. Okay. And when we were walking out of the conference room, someone said, by the way, what’s the topic? And who’s going to be the subject matter expert?

We didn’t know. And I literally just blurted out, how about brand branding that’s relevant to business. And no MBA program really offers that. It’s a great, great idea. And who will lead it? And I was like, there’s a guy who wrote some books. And they said, Great, set it up. And then I so then I sent Marty an email for the first time in years. And I reminded him who I was. And I told him, here’s what we’re doing. Here’s what we want to try. We want to try it with you. And I really didn’t expect a response. I got a response in like 30 minutes. And he’s like, let’s talk and Marty doesn’t like to like do things by email, or by phone, he likes to Skype, or he likes to see you. And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve never done that before. I’ve never spoken to him Skype, whatever, we set it up. And we set up a 30 minute kind of intro. That’s what I thought it was going to be. It was like a two and a half hour like, thing back and forth. And my entire team was like, behind my laptop, like, like listening. And I’m just jamming with Master. And he said, like, in his entire career, people have come to him with ideas and wanting to partner and said, this was the best idea that anyone had brought to him, like better than lynda.com wanting him to like come in and do that better than LinkedIn learning, wanting him to come in and like be exclusive is like this was it. Okay, crazy.

Fast forward a little bit. We were getting everything set up the MBA, there was a problem with the MBA program we pulled out. And then the the startup just it wasn’t it wasn’t working. They wanted to go in a different direction. They weren’t funded properly. And so I bounced, but Marty and I kept talking, we would email and kind of we started asking ourselves like, what if, like, how about, you know, could we blah, blah, blah. And one day, he just said, Look, if they weren’t willing or able to do it, why don’t you and I just do this ourselves?

Why don’t you and I just try it? Okay, I flew out to Santa Barbara. He invited me to his home.

We locked ourselves in his home studio for like three or four days. And we went through our own process that we teach. We did it on ourselves. And we had this thing basically, in the can, like before I left. And here we are. Yeah. And so

Marc Gutman 39:30
Take yourself back to that time in Santa Barbara. I mean, what do you think? And are you just looking around like, I can’t believe this is happening like this, you know, this, you know, as they say, the this escalated quickly, right? Like all the sudden, you’re in partnership, and I know it’s that you’ve built a relationship over time. And I and I really don’t want to minimize that because I think it’s a huge thing that I want people to take away from this that you you built a relationship you stayed in front of Marty and when the time was right, it was right for both of you, but It is you’re in Santa Barbara, and you’re building this thing and you’re like, we’re doing this thing. Are you just kind of looking around like you’re, you mentioned, you’re in his studio. I mean, this is, you know, I think for any brand, or you have his books on your desk, I mean, mine, I just put mine just to the side here. But you know, I’ve typically got stacks of them. I mean, to me, that would be like, whaaatt?

Andy Starr 40:17
So I had met him, he, he flew to Philadelphia, while we, you know, after we kind of agreed we were going to try with that startup, he flew to Philadelphia, because he wanted to meet me and the team at the time. And he, he gave us he basically did his brand flip workshop, like, for like, almost nothing, he just wanted to meet us. And so I had the starstruck thing when I picked him up at the airport. That was like, that was bananas. I was like, you know, just a little kid. But when he invited me to out to his home, that’s when, for me, it became something different in the coolest thing that we did, there was, you know, I’m in his is his studio. It’s like, the kind of studio I would want for myself, you know, and he has, like, on his bookshelf, he has, you know, extra copies of all of his books, and then all of the design and business and strategy books that have influenced him, right. And I’m literally going like book by book, and then I get up to the shelf with extra copies of the brand gap, right? I mean, this is so wild. So out, and they were all like super pristine, right?

Except for one copy. There was one copy that was all just beat up and folded and and there were rabbit ears, and there were little postage sticking out of it. And I thought like, that’s really weird. Like, why is that up there? like is that his copy? Was that like a is that a first edition? Whatever, I take it down. I’m looking at it. And I’m just, I’m holding it in my oily, you know, hands. And I’m just what is it? And he walked out of the office for a few minutes. And that’s when I was doing this. And when it comes back in, I just turned to him. And I’m like, what’s the story with this book? Because it’s not pristine, like sentimental value. And he’s like, Oh, look at the cover. And I looked at the cover and it said Steve’s copy hands off, and I’m like, I don’t get it. Who Steve and he just so nonchalantly says well, that Steve Jobs copy. I was like what I’m holding Steve Jobs copy of the brand gap beat up folded marked, you know, rabbit ear, you know, notes, you know, that for me? Was that was another thing like, this guy wants to like be my partner. He wants to do this with me. And that would that’s that was really kind of like the first time with Marty that I felt way out of my element. Like, this should not be me. I’m not I’m I should not be the one to do this. It made me It made me like nervous. I was like genuinely, like, kind of out of sorts about it. And then we sat down and started going, you know, through the thing, and I’m kind of a control freak. I like to be in control when when I know what I’m doing. And I feel confident about what I’m doing. I can I can drive the train.

And I was just like, no way. I was like, dude, you’re in charge. Like, you lead the way. I’m going to follow I’m going to do this with you. But like, you know, Master apprentice, you know, Jedi Padawan like I’m totally okay with that. And when we started going through it, I thought I knew things right? You know how like, you can read the books and you can have your successes and you can have your confidence. You You think you know your shit, right? You know, I know all my rudiments on the drums and like, you know, I’m pretty decent drummer. But then you meet like a real German you’re like that cat is just a bad fucking dude. When when we kicked it off that morning, I was just like, Whoa, and I regret not like recording the entire thing for posterity. Because it was that bad. It was that like, Oh, alright, so this is what this is what it’s really like when the master does it.

And I mean, like, the whole thing was like a learning experience. And I was like, I was drunk by like, the end of the first day.

Marc Gutman 44:19
Yeah. And, you know, you were wondering, like, hey, how could this be me? But it is you so in working with Marty like what makes him a great partner?

Andy Starr 44:30
Marty’s no bullshit. That’s the best thing about him. Because, you know, even better than his experience and his talent than his intelligence and his intellectual curiosity. He reads more than almost anyone I know. But he is no bullshit. He’s no bullshit with me. He’s no bullshit with our students. He calls it exactly the way he sees it. And it’s funny, we’ve actually had disagreements about that. When we get feedback in our class, I’m an advocate For a slightly gentler approach, I don’t think that there’s a need to be super blonde just for the sake of, you know, minimizing bullshit. And we’ve, we’ve disagreed on that, but I’ve come around to really appreciate that, and have have just the most the utmost respect for his candor is the elegance that he provides feedback, and expertise, the the elegance with which he shares his mastery with other people. Um, and that was no different for me.

I just had the luxury of having it one on one in a very intimate setting. Right. That’s, that’s the thing about Marty, I’m just an app, and look at the space we work in, look at how much bullshit there is. I mean, I’ve worked at agencies, and I’ve worked with people who literally have this philosophy that we are in the bullshit business. Right. And that’s hard. That’s hard to swallow, right? For me, at least. And to realize and then experience that the mass the guy who wrote the book, The master himself, is completely, I mean, completely anti bullshit. I was I was just like this, this is just too good to be true. just too good to be true. But it’s not. It’s just too good.

Marc Gutman 46:34
So, no, it is too good. And you know, to flip the coin a little bit, what makes you a great partner. What do you think? Either you can address that from either what you think or what do you think Marty would say?

Andy Starr 46:48

I don’t see the weird thing is, it’s not that I’m uncomfortable asking that. I just don’t know. It’s not I’m not the type of person who typically answers that. I would say, I think one of the things that makes me a good partner is that I take it, it’s because I follow some of the some of the advice that I and guidance that I try to contribute to others, including, I take it seriously. But I’m not too serious about it, I think I have a very healthy idea of what matters and what doesn’t. For myself, for Marty, for us, and for our tribe. I’m very patient. And I think I think I’m hyper patient. And I’m, I am, I am extremely passionate about what we’re doing. And I know that sounds that may all sound cliched, but one of the things I’ve learned is that, if that’s not if that stuff isn’t there, it doesn’t really matter what you’re doing, right. And the last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite and I couldn’t really live with myself, if people thought that I or Marty or we were hypocrites and what we what we preach what we teach. So I think that from what I think for money, I’m also a balance. You know, we talk about personality types and, and roles. And I think that Marty and I complement each other really well, there are things that he can do that I can’t, and I don’t want to try, there are things that he can do that I can do that I just don’t want to do that I don’t like to do, or that I’m just not very good at. And there are ways that he thinks that I don’t where I can. And I would say the flip is just as true. And I think that we balanced and complete and round each other out really well like that, you know, like looking at it from 80,000 feet.

He’s a creative and a designer and i’m not i’m a strategist, right? He’s He’s strategic. I am creative, but we kind of we recognize where we belong, and we recognize our lanes. And he’s not as territorial as you. Some people might expect him to be. He is and on all things creative. I defer to him. And he he, I think for him, I’m also going back to the word, you know, going back to the label provocateur, I’m more provocative than he is. I am, I think I’m definitely more brash, I’m a little more raw. And, and maybe he likes that because he doesn’t need to be that anymore. He doesn’t want to be that anymore. Maybe it’s just not enough, you know him. But I think we just we just complement each other really well. We look at the world basically the same way. We never really had an argument about anything. We have disagreements, but we’re both patient enough and I am super respectful of his seniority to me.

Super respectful, and I value that, and I want him to and I tell him I want him to be the master, not just for others, but for me too. And, and allow me to learn while we’re doing this. And I have every time he and I jam on something, I learned something new, which is bananas. And I think all of that makes me a partner that works for him with him. And he’s had partners in the past, I’d be curious to hear what he thinks of me as a partner. But that’s the thing, I’m not going to let my ego get in the way I want to know. And I want to be a good partner going forward. And even when he takes a step back, and I have to decide how Level C c kind of moves on, I’m going to want other partners, and I want to be a good partner for them.

So you know, but I hate talking about myself that way. Like, I hate it. Good question, though.

Marc Gutman 50:56
Good, good. Good. And so, you know, as you talk about Level C, like, what, let’s talk about that for a second, like, why does brand matter? And why does Level C matter? Like, what are you trying to do with this thing?

Andy Starr 51:09
Brand matters, because brand, is brand is the people’s connection to business, right? brand is what lets come what lets the company, and the people actually come together. So when a company talks about the people, the people, the people, the customers, it’s all just talk, it’s the brand that actually makes that real, that makes that consequential, if you will, and so brand should matter to the business world, if they actually care about the consumer, the people, the tribe, the audience, whatever you want to call them, brand should matter to people, because it’s through brand that people can influence and change business. Okay. And what we’re trying to do with Level C, is we are trying to, we’re trying to put in, or, depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand, into the C suite, to restore the role of brand, into a position of influence, on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side, to change the conversation. Right, there’s a lot of conversation, especially recently, about kind of the role of brand versus marketing.

You know, there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, brand is a part of marketing. And we believe that you know, marketing is actually a part of brand. And that’s a red herring, I definitely don’t want to go down, go down that path here. But we want to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. And you know, here’s the thing, we don’t we’re not trying to change the world. We’re not maybe we’re one of the few brands out there that is comfortable saying that we’re not looking to change the world, we’re looking to change a part of business, because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. So that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re, you know, we’re creating an army of people who who get this stuff, right. And maybe army isn’t the right word. Maybe tribe isn’t even right, the right word. We’re just recreating it, we’re creating the opportunity for people who work in this space, to get it, evangelize it and bring the rest of us forward.

Marc Gutman 53:40
Yeah, and I couldn’t agree more. I mean, I, you know, I’ve spoken on this before, but, you know, I believe that this idea of business is just this one big story that we all have invented and buy into. And if, if you hold that to be true, then that means that we have the power to influence it and change it. And I also think there’s something that’s like, just crazy going on right now. And I’d love to get your take on this. You know, even thinking about like, brand, you know, the history of brand, but like, it’s my observation that people are looking to brands now in ways that they never have before, right? They’re looking to brands for how do you feel about COVID? For example, how do you feel about racial inequality?

How do you feel about politics, you know, in by asking the brand that they want information that it’s that well, it says like, well, then if you feel this way, then I feel this way, it’s a direct reflection. And I think there’s just this crazy thing happening and I don’t know if you’re seeing that if that’s if that feels new to you, but like this idea that like, even the brands I work with, they’re like, Well, what do we say like how do we act you know, and now it’s a bigger conversation because you know, we can get into like values and your beliefs and you know, hold true to those but I just find this, this kind of forefront of brand and the way people are looking to brand to to comment on the world so that it tells them how they feel about the world. Just this, you know that and I believe in that, like, how the customer felt about the world was it seemed to be that like it was, it’s been like that for a long time. It’s like the subtext. It’s like, it’s like, like, what am I? What’s my status? Or like, how do I see myself? But now it just seems like way more overt and direct in terms of like, what people are demanding from brands in terms of worldview?

Andy Starr 55:19
I mean, it’s it’s tribalism, right? You can boil all that down into tribalism, or identity, right? Who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want? You know, what matters to me? You know, I think it’s a different conversation, I think it reflects a lot of other things, the fracturing of the human of human identity over the last, you know, 20 plus years, and I know, it’s, it goes back way longer than that, but, you know, the way the world has changed in the past 20 years, the way we’ve all become, you know, immediately connected, right, you know, everything can happen. Now. I can talk to someone, you know, we had a student in a thing this morning from Nepal. Like I can talk to him in a second, right. Um, and so I think that that’s created a kind of a sense of urgency, maybe that’s not the not exactly what I mean. But in terms of, in terms of clarity, about where you stand. And so when people, you know, ask the question, what does the brand stand for? Right? You know, what, what is what is I don’t I’m making it up, what is Warby Parker’s stance on Black Lives Matter.

It’s not so much that they care about Warby Parker’s stance that is that this is what I’m just speaking for myself what I believe, I don’t think it’s so much that they care about Warby Parker’s stance, I think it’s Warby Parker’s stance helps frame a little bit more of the context for themselves. How where do they see themselves in relation to Black Lives Matter and Warby Parker and apple and Nike and Starbucks and Virgin and pick a brand? Right? Because really, really, at the end of the day, do you think that people really give a shit about most brands? I don’t. I don’t. I think that brand loyalty is almost like a misnomer. Like, do I love my iPhone? Yeah. Do I love my Apple watch? Sure. Do. I love my MacBook Pro? Absolutely. And my loyal to the Apple brand? No, I don’t care that much. I just don’t care about me. I care about my friends, my family I care about my community. I you know, I care about who’s at the top of the barclays premier league table. I don’t really care about Apple’s brand. If I hear that Apple has a position where has done something that I don’t agree with? Does it anger me annoying me? piss me off? Yeah, it does. But mainly just because I wish that they could see it the way I see it. But I don’t I don’t.

I don’t look at it the way I know a lot of people look at it. You know, when I have a client and they, they they’ll ask me, you know, how should we respond to this, I’m always going to tell them the truth and not my truth. But what I strategically believe, is best for the business and the brand. And that’s always a tricky kind of gray area. But I just I just don’t think people care. I I struggled to believe that people genuinely care. And people may say, I really care. And they may they may believe that they may feel that way. And I and I, I won’t disrespect or deny that that happens. I won’t. But I think deep down maybe you know, it’s it’s more ID than ego. I don’t think it matters to them as much as it’s been made out to. Okay. But again, if you believe if you believe me when I say if you believe in the idea that the brand is what connects people to the business, well, then what the brand stands for their values, their their position on a given issue, political, social, whatever, then it does matter. For better or for worse. I just don’t think that the brand can control it as much as they think they can. Right? Because they certainly can’t control their audience. They can influence their audience. They can try to anticipate what the majority of their audience believes or feels about a specific issue. But, you know, when it comes to control, and it doesn’t exist, it just doesn’t influence exist, but even that has limit so I roll my eyes a lot and when when I when I see the question, you know where the debate happening? It’s I’m just like, who really cares? That’s different from caring about the issue. I definitely care about the issues, I feel very strongly about the same issues. I just don’t care about what the brand thinks, or what the brand says they stand for. I just don’t.

Marc Gutman 1:00:17
Hmm. So to challenge you on that, if Apple and by the way, this is theory, everybody, if Apple actually denounced black lives matter if they had a more not inclusive policy towards LGBTQ and like, you know, did not recognize those folks that would have no bearing in your purchase of their product.

Andy Starr 1:00:45
It probably would. And not probably would, it would. But that’s not again, it’s not so much because of what Apple stands for. It’s for what I stand for. Correct? Yeah, that’s, that’s why and again, I, I recognize that what I just said, may may initially resonate with some people like why wait, he doesn’t care? No. I care very, very much. I have extremely strong feelings that I believe are in the majority. By the way, I think that I stand with most people on most issues I do. And because they matter so much, to me, that’s what influences my decision. That’s what influences my behavior in one way or another. If he here’s another example. Um, I remember, I think it was a couple years ago, the I think it was the CEO of barilla. Pasta, I was kind of outed for making, you know, homophobic remarks, right? Mm hmm. I’m like a pasta. I basically eat spaghetti every day of my life. and up to that point, Burleigh, was the brand that I like to make. I haven’t had real essence. And I never will. Not because because of what he said, but that’s not what influenced my decision is because of how I feel. That’s how strongly I feel about it. Right. And, and there’s a difference. I think it’s subtle, it’s nuanced. It’s complicated. It’s not simple. But if someone if Apple so if Apple basically denounced Black Lives Matter, and people boycott Apple, it’s more because of how those people feel for themselves about the issue. That’s what I’m saying.

Marc Gutman 1:02:33
I got it. Got it. Well, Andy, I could talk to you forever. This has gone super fast. And as we near the end of our time together, I’d love for you to think back to that time when you first walked into that music room and sat down at those drums and maybe hit the drum once or twice and had that charge of electricity. And if that Andy ran into you today, what do you think he’d say?

Andy Starr 1:03:04
What do you think he would say about me now? Yeah, I have no idea. Wow, I’ve never been asked that before. I’ve always been asked the opposite. What would I say to Andy? That Andy, then I, I like to think that he would say, I’m sorry, I have no I’m like, stunned by that, that. That question is going to haunt me for a while. And I don’t I don’t even want to say I have to get back to you on that. Although I know I’m going to I have no idea dude. What? What is Wow, what an amazing question.

Andy Starr 1:04:00
You can see my face and you can i’m, i’m i’m just like I can I can I ask you? Why did you ask me that question?

Marc Gutman 1:04:17
Part of it is I want to know if your younger self would have been impressed or would have been interested or intrigued or curious or a myriad of other thoughts about how your life turned out and where you’re at today and where you’re going. Huh? And if that young Andy who is probably thinking, Oh my gosh, I’m about to become a life long professional musician. I would have thought like, Hey, you know, this is just as good playing music in a different way.

Andy Starr 1:04:48
I think this is just more of me now. Then. What I would have been back then. But I I like to think or maybe I just hope that he would have have asked me Is it a good gig or is it a good deal? And without hesitation I I’d say it’s the best gig. That is the best gig. This is a people business dude. Like it’s more about people than it is about business. the business side of Level C like it’s like the least fun thing that I do. The most fun thing that I do is meeting people like you meeting you know, meeting people like Mata Marina do meeting people like Matt Davies, Chris lateral Layla Casanova. I’m, you know, 300 more than 300 people, awesome human beings who work in the human side of business, from like, 4050 countries so far. That’s, that’s like the best gig in the world, the best gig.

Marc Gutman 1:06:00
And that is Andy Starr of Level C. Well, what did you think? Drinking from the firehose yet? I could have talked with Andy for hours, but I think we’ve covered quite a bit of ground and our time today. A big heartfelt thank you to Andy Starr, and the team at Level C. We will link to all things any star in Level C in the show notes. If you’re interested in sharpening your brand chops, I highly recommend you check out their masterclasses. Well, that’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.