Baby Got Backstory

BGBS 043: Laura and Peter Ramsden | Foley Fish | Fresh Off the Boat for 114 Years

BGBS 043: Laura and Peter Ramsden | Foley Fish | Fresh Off the Boat for 114 Years

Laura and Peter Ramsden are proud fourth-generation owners of Foley Fish, a seafood processing company founded by Laura’s great grandfather in 1906. (That’s 114 years!) Laura and Peter are sure to keep you captivated with Foley Fish’s rich history from its roots at the Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston, Massachusetts to the differentiated pivots that are being made today.  We talk about how the effects of COVID-19 became an opportunity for a new, yet familiar form of business, the process of keeping fish 100% natural and sustainable, and the beauty of working with a spouse. Laura and Peter also educate us about the diversity of fish flavors and remind us to keep trying new fish if we feel discouraged. With that in mind we ask, how can we all try something new today?

In this episode, you'll learn...

• Foley Fish was founded in 1906 by Laura’s great grandfather, an Irish fishmonger selling from his original plant at the Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston
• Laura’s great grandfather took great pride in his ability to buy a previously-owned Harvard building to occupy his business
• Laura and Peter did not originally have their sights set on seafood processing, with their initial careers being in public relations and money management, respectively
• The first year of transitioning into running the family business, Peter put his all into the learning the ropes of every job and working long-hours, similar to a first-generation owner
• Because of COVID’s influence on grocery shopping, Laura and Peter were able to refocus their business to its roots in direct home delivery of frozen fish
• Foley Fish is 100% natural. Peter and Laura encourage us to be wary of seafood additives that mask aging and add false water weight to fish
• Tuna is not naturally a watermelon pink color. This is a sign of tuna that had been exposed to gas that keeps its color despite being frozen
• Laura and Peter encourage people to eat fish because of its great protein and caloric health benefits
• Even if you’ve tried a fish and didn’t like it, keep trying other fish! There is so much diversity in tastes coming from the ocean
• Laura and Peter attribute their success in 20 years of business together to a distinct division of duties and an unspoken understanding of their stressors and joys
• Although tradition is important, it is also crucial for Foley Fish to stay relevant by responding to customer needs and offering relevant goods and services that are differentiated from others
• Foley Fish makes it a point to locally source their fish through tremendous regulation, which keeps them differentiated throughout the seasons and sustainable throughout the year

Resources

Foley Fish Website Foley Fish LinkedIn Foley Fish Facebook Foley Fish Instagram

Quotes

[9:34] One of the ways we have of measuring the business was...the initial space was just a floor level space in a flat iron building, as Laura said in the Faneuil Hall area that it was being leased, and eventually the company occupied four floors of that building and then bought the building. So clearly things were going in the right direction in that first 25 to 30 years. - PR [17:22] The energy and enthusiasm and time that Peter brought to the business and was very much like a first-generation owner, and I really believe the company was better for it. And it's a lot of the reason why we were sustained for a fourth generation. - LR [21:58] The things that people say to us about our product, about our fish, about our team, about our drivers, the feedback, it is just—for generations, we have customers that have worked for my grandfather, my father, and me and Peter, and that is so affirming that we have to be doing something right here. - LR [40:19] [Owning a business] could have been disastrous, and it could have been the end of our marriage potentially. Thankfully, it didn't go that way. And as we look back upon it, we can say, “See, it really did work out well,” because we have a complementary skill set. - PR

Podcast Transcript

Laura Ramsden 0:02

COVID put a whole new spin on those kinds of fears and, but also provided a little cover, right? So if we crashed and burned in COVID, we wouldn't be alone. But it was the scariest I've been most scared. I've been since we were the early days of purchasing the business and we took out, I want to be clear, we purchased the business, we had it appraised and we took out a loan, that we owe the bank for those years that we're having to pay the bank and make the covenants and all of that. Those were definitely early scarier years. And we definitely gained perspective.

Marc Gutman 0:43

Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got Backstory, how a little family fish business in Boston, Massachusetts, started in 1906 and is still going strong after 114 years and still run by the family that started it. Today we are talking with Laura and Peter Ramsden, co-owners of Foley Fish. Foley Fish is a fish processor and distributor of sustainable fresh fish that has been going strong for 114 years. But is not a mistake. 114 years in the business selling fish. You don't run into too many businesses that make it past three years, let alone 114. And before we get into the episode, I need to do my usual reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us build an audience which then helps us to continue to produce this show. And I just realized that may be called Apple podcasts and I'm stuck in my old iTunes ways. So please go over to Apple podcasts and rate the show. In 2004, Laura and Peter Ramsden purchased the Foley Fish Company from Laura's parents, Mike and Linda Foley making them the fourth generation of Foley and first generation Ramsden fishmongers. Laura is even referred to as the Mongress. And I don't know about you, but I don't meet or talk with many mattresses, or is it mind dry? I'm not sure. But what I can tell you is I'm really excited for this episode. Over the past 20 years, Laura and Peter have poured themselves into the business so that Foley Fish will continue for another 114 years. During our conversation, we covered what it's like to work with your spouse, what it's like to get into business for yourself, and sustainability of ocean protein. And this is their story. I am here with Laura and Peter Ramsden co owners of Foley fish. And I'm gonna get right into it. Laura, what's Foley ish?

Laura Ramsden 3:26

Marc, thanks for having us today. Foley Fish is a fourth generation seafood processor. It was founded by my great grandfather in 1906. And we specialize in sourcing, cutting, packing and shipping all natural, fresh seafood and

Marc Gutman 3:46

I'm not really good at math, and I'm literally doing math on my iPad right here. You would laugh even though I did go to college. But uh, so that's 114 years of being in business don't have that, right.

Laura Ramsden 3:56

That is correct.

Marc Gutman 3:58

Well, I could end this interview right here. Like right now like, I mean, there's not very many businesses that have been around for 114 years. Usually they say the third generation screws it up by then. And so so first of all, I just want to say congratulations, that's an amazing accomplishment. I can't wait to hear about that, and a little bit more and how you got there. But 1906 and so what was your grandfather's name?

Laura Ramsden 4:23

He was the original M.F. Foley. And then we had Francis Michael Foley, my grandfather Frank. And then my dad is Michael Foley. And then me Laura Foley. And yes, I do have a brother Michael Foley, but he is a successful writer in producer in Los Angeles. So people often ask me, didn't you have a brother? I do.

Marc Gutman 4:50

And he and he carried on the MF was about to say you got the LF but, yes. So M.F. Foley in 1906 would just give This little sense of what the business looked like that and I mean, what, what was going on? And what did the world look like in 1906 from a fishmonger perspective.

Laura Ramsden 5:08

So interestingly enough that my dad is 79. And he is just submitting to the publisher, a book called swimming upstream. that details the whole history of Foley Fish. And my dad does not type. And he had my daughter, our daughters and me typing his chapters. So we learned a lot more about what life was like in 1906. And we would have ever known otherwise. And it was horse and buggies in the streets of Boston, our original plant was in the fanueil Hall market place. It was originally designed to be seafood, that fish that was purchased in the morning and then delivered to the cooks in the Back Bay. It was back in the day when the Irish were primarily servants in Boston. So he was the trusted Irish fishmonger down in Faneuil Hall that the cooks in the Back Bay Area would use as a resource. And the business grew from there, too, when we started having railway traffic trains, that my grandfather was the one that when the fish could get sent by train, we would send them in these wood barrels filled with ice. But yeah, it was definitely a much different industry in some regards. And in some ways, it was very similar to what we do today.

Marc Gutman 6:37

Like how much fish was coming through at that time? Do you have any sense of that like it like, especially as you compare it to what you're processing today.

Laura Ramsden 6:45

So the mix of species is very different today, there was no farmed salmon back then. So the preponderance of the species are local. And having been involved in fishery management, I can tell you that the quantities of seafood, local seafood being landed were vast, excuse me vastly different. We actually would send out monthly bulletins to all of our customers. And so we have some of those original bulletins. And it's super interesting to see species that were being sold then and the pricing that they were being sold at, versus what is available today. So things like actual wild Atlantic salmon was something that was available back in 1906. That is not a commercial, commercially viable species. Now the wild salmon is coming out of places like Alaska and Washington and Oregon now. So definitely the product mix was different, though we weren't in that time selling important species. It was all things they landed right here, your Cod, your Haddock, your soul, your scallops, shellfish.

Marc Gutman 7:56

I'm just so fascinated by the history of it. And again, just knowing that 114 years has gone by and still still selling fish how to Foley Fish. So let me it was called Foley Fish back then.

Laura Ramsden 8:07

Yep, it was. So it's technically the mF Foley company, that people refer to it as totally fish. And I'll have people come up to me if I'm doing a demo cooking demo in a store one of our accounts, people will say, Oh, I know Foley fish or people will call and say I've got the original book that they put together about the species Do you want a copy from 1929? There's just some really fun artifacts that are floating around New England and beyond. I mean, I've had people call me from cleaning out their grandmother's house in Pittsburgh. And you know, the grandfather was a chef and menus with the Foley name on it. It's kind of fun to have had people reach out and send us different things that we the company had put out over the years. And

Marc Gutman 8:57

Peter, it sounded like you might have had something to add to that.

Peter Ramsden 9:00

Oh, I just was gonna offer up that. So us are asked about volumes. And so you're initially from as the Lord tells us, as the history goes, is literally he was saying fish after sign fish out of a push cart. And then you know, horse and buggy up into the Back Bay to the brownstone kitchens and whatnot. But things did clearly grow rapidly with the ability to put product on trains and then later in the 50s on as the highway system got built out on trucks. So, you know, one of the way we have a measuring business was, you know, in the initial space was just a floor level space, in a flat iron building, as Laura said in the fin Hall area, on that it was being leased, and eventually the company occupied four floors of that building and bought the building. So clearly things were going in the right direction, in that first 25 to 30 years.

Laura Ramsden 9:59

I think the building was originally owned by Harvard, actually. So my great grandfather felt a lot of pride at being able to buy the building.

Marc Gutman 10:09

I bet Well, you know, one of my favorite questions to kick off an episode, which is gonna be funny now to ask this or maybe not, is always like, something to the effect of Did you always think you would be dot dot dot? And so my question for you is growing up, did you always think that you were gonna be the fishmongers? Or did or fishmonger? Or, like, what were you thinking? Especially like when you're like a, your your folks are running this, this, this fish business? Did you want to be in the fish business? Or do you want nothing to do with it?

Laura Ramsden 10:38

So interestingly enough, my dad went to college, graduated, worked at Foley Fish for a year, and saw no room for advancement. He had graduated from Harvard, and my grandfather promptly put him as the freezer man. And he said, I think I can do more with my education. So he moved in with my mother and I was a baby to Chicago. So for the first 10 years of my life, my dad was a commercial lender for Continental Bank If my mom went back to law school and was an attorney, and I didn't know there was a fish company. So we moved when I was in fifth grade. And it was so that my dad could open the Foley Fish New Bedford plant, because my grandfather saw that there was a great opportunity to sell restaurant quality fish and retail and do a branded Foley program. And I was so angry because my mother's whole family lived in Chicago, I would walk to my grandma and grandpa's every morning for breakfast, my parents would go to the train. And I thought, you know, he was up-ending my whole world. So I definitely at eight, nine and 10 did not think I was going to be a fishmonger, I was and then I came back to the Midwest to go to college, and then worked in public relations in Chicago, and then public relations in Austin, and I had done work in the summers in high school for Foley's, but no, I didn't think that that's where the my path would take me. If this was to give out in preparation for the interview. I literally, I started working for a fish when I was 14. And now I'm 51. And that is higher math for me as an English major. But that's a lot of years. And I don't, I didn't anticipate this being sort of such a bulk of my career. But I definitely felt very, very lucky to be in a career and working on a team of people. So committed to a mission and something that I was so passionate about, I think that that is can be rare, especially for a woman trying to juggle family and career.

Marc Gutman 12:50

Yeah. And so what about you, Peter? Would Did you have a future laid out for you and fish? Were you like, hey, someday, I'm gonna be the fish guy.

Peter Ramsden 12:59

Well, clearly, when Laura and I started dating, I didn't know about the fish business, even though she was currently then in public relations. I was a money manager and investment professional at the time Business School graduate, and had no intention of getting involved in the seafood processing world. And indeed, there are a lot of jokes at our rehearsal dinner, if I ever lose my financial acumen, that I could, you know, fall back and come to work and put on the rubber boots and come to work in the fish plant. But no, it was not an expectation. And it wasn't until the late 90s you know, some 20 plus years ago that my in laws, Mike Linda for the third generation owners approached us to say, you know, they needed an exit strategy and their primary and best alternative for making that happen would be to sell it to us, and they thought that we'd be a good pair to run it for another generation.

Marc Gutman 14:05

That sounds like a lot of pressure. You know, like like, you know that they come to you and they say you are only hope we need you already know this thing has been going for three generations I'm sure there's a ton of pride a ton of not only like internal family pride, but also just the people you take care of at the plant. I know how it goes. And at the business people that work for you and you take a real sense of ownership and a sense of family a lot of times with with with people on a sense of responsibility like when they came to you and said that was that like a really great moment or was it like a oh no moment?

Peter Ramsden 14:41

Well, they're fairly straightforward but also fair about it in the sense that they said yeah, you know, we'll we can treat this like a business school case study and we'll spend the next three or four months talking about it and you know, and I'll we'll decide whether this business is attractive enough that someday we'd want to own the whole thing. And so no, I, I do think we always had an option to say no. But the more that Lauren I thought about it, the more excited we got about it. And the idea of working together and being owners, clearly to us was at the time was greener grass. And I'm, I don't I don't ever regret doing what we did. But, you know, clearly Our lives are different.

Laura Ramsden 15:28

At the time, we were living in Connecticut, and I was telecommuting for folly fish, helping out on marketing projects and doing sales calls. But Peter was working in New York City, and be a little kids. And we thought, oh, wow, running a small family business, we'll have more, it'll be better quality of life than commuting, living in Fairfield County, it'll just be a better pace, a better environment for raising our children. And that was definitely attractive. But what I didn't fully appreciate was that, well, I was going to be fourth generation, this was Peters first generation, ownership, and he attacked it, as if this was day one of this company, and he has put in blood, sweat, tears time beyond. And he literally the first year that we were transitioning, I took the year off to have our third child and get us all settled in Rhode Island, and get the kids acclimated and you know, in all their activities and everything, but also to give him space to join the company. And he literally did every single job in both plants, whether it was being the freezer guy for a month, the cooler person for a month or receiver for a month. And he brought his business school. I mean, my dad has his MBA too, but just he just brought this fresh eye to every area of operations in both plants. He went on the road to all over the country with our salespeople. He upgraded our sales materials, because my dad was doing everything on flip charts and Pete is calm Bobby bullet point with computers. So yes, while it was a lot of certainly, you know, we we took it very seriously that we were going to it was on our shoulders to carry the business forward. The energy and enthusiasts and time that Peter brought to the business and was very much like a first generation owner, and I really believe the company was better for it. And it's a lot of the reason why we were sustained for fourth generation because he really, he gave us he gave us all and he has given his on some to both plants,

Peter Ramsden 17:47

Laura is of course being way over-generous with that, but that's a loving wife speaking and, and thankfully, it did work out now 27 years into marriage and 20 years of ownership. So, but it was a big investment upfront, to convert myself from being a money manager to a fish processor.

Marc Gutman 18:14

So, I'm gonna say there's not much of a difference, right?

Laura Ramsden 18:17

Literally, I mean, the dry cleaning bills went to nothing. He literally was shopping, you know, Walmart for like the Carhartt pants and the boots and the whole thing, you know, all the Brooks Brothers suit sat in the closet. I mean, it was a complete transformation as

Marc Gutman 18:35

Well as you're mucking up fish guts, and you're doing the dirty work. And because we all know, when you have a business, you know, people think that's all glamour, and you're just sitting there, you know, on the receiving end of wealth and benefit and all this stuff. But no, I mean, the real, you know, the reality is, is you're in the trenches, you're doing the work, you're, you're sweating, whether or not you can make payroll sometimes and, you know, work did you have those moments where you were like, what did we get ourselves into?

Peter Ramsden 19:04

From my standpoint? I absolutely did. You know, I don't mind physical work, but there's a lot of it in this business. And, you know, thankfully, I'm now at 56 that company doesn't rely on my back for that. But, you know, when I was in my mid 30s, just to learn the business, I was doing a lot and you know, I would stop and think, gee, it was just, you know, six months ago that I was in an office overlooking Central Park. And I wasn't smelling like fish. So yes, absolutely. You stop and say this, this really did I make the right decision. Is this really worth it? It's a big transition.

Marc Gutman 19:48

I'm sure and you know, putting myself in your shoes like both of you like, on one hand that'd be like really excited. I'd be like this is a great opportunities you mentioned to change you know, early lifestyle, I have a different, a different way of life for our family and all that kind of stuff. But like, I would also be really scared of like screwing this thing up. Did you ever have any of those feelings? Were you ever thinking yourself like, like, what if we mess this up? Like we're the generation that that screws up Foley Fish?

Laura Ramsden 20:20

I wasn't sure how I was going to answer that. Of course, of course I am. I'm super competitive. And so anytime we were going to lose a customer or lose, I'm also a worrier on top of that, so definitely sleepless nights definitely concern, definitely fear. But also faith that it Peter is much better, let me just say this, Peter is much better than I am and looking at the big picture and looking down the road, and it's only literally 20 years and that I can say, Oh, it's okay, these things happen, a shipment gets missed. somebody forgot something on an order, whatever it is that I used to be completely distraught over something happening in the business on a day to day basis, you definitely get some perspective really, all right, the whole world is not going to end it's not going to crash. Now that being said, COVID put a whole new spin on those kinds of fears, and but also provided a little cover, right? So if we crashed and burned in COVID, we wouldn't be alone. But it was the scariest I've been most scared. I've been since we were the early days of purchasing the business. And we took out, I want to be clear, we purchased the business, we had it appraised and we took out a loan. So when you owe the bank for those years that we're having to pay the bank and make the covenants and all of that those were definitely early, scarier years. And we definitely gained perspective and confidence as well. I mean, the things that people say to us about our product, about our fish, about our team about our drivers, the feedback, it is just for generations, and we have customers that have worked for my grandfather, my father, and me, and Peter, and it is that is so affirming that we have to be doing something right here. So that that's been helpful. But yes, there have been dark days and sleepless nights, for sure.

Marc Gutman 22:27

Then and talk a little bit about how COVID affected the business like what did you see I could I you know, I have no idea what you're going to say. But I can imagine it going either way, like what have you seen on your side of the business?

Peter Ramsden 22:38

Yeah, our business is has transitioned, really from the 80s to current much more focused on restaurants, hotels, country clubs and resorts. We had a lot of exposure to the businesses that were closing down, or being forced to shut down by governors around the country,

Laura Ramsden 22:58

While maintaining some really strong important specialty retail relationships, which kept us going Thank God.

Peter Ramsden 23:09

Correct. So, so we definitely saw a huge fall off the toy gender, March, and day to day business. And, and that was as an operating company, you know, two facilities and total staff of about 85. We were very concerned about how we might find a path forward without the revenues coming in.

Marc Gutman 23:35

Yeah, I can imagine it's very scary. And everyone is going through it now. And it's one of these things that we still don't have the answers to, but we're, we're all doing our best. And so I see that, you know, one of the things that you you've gone ahead and done is offering more of a direct consumer product. Is that in response to COVID? Or is that in the works prior?

Laura Ramsden 23:54

Yes. So I had a friend, people often say I've got people coming to town. Can I get those crab claws? Can I get some oysters, we sort of had this sort of side hustle with our friends that will do put a cash sale and bring them home, whatever you're looking for. But I had a friend say to me, I've got all these kids home 20 year olds from, you know, 20 somethings from New York and Boston and the college kids are home and can you get me some fish. And I thought you know, that's probably happening everywhere. And also people don't want to go to the grocery store because at that time, we still really thought you could get COVID from services and people were very nervous about leaving their homes. So I said well, what if we took our fish and created protein packs, so that they Oh and I know the other thing was on the radio stations. Every time I turned to a different station, people were joking about sending their husbands to the store and all they were coming back with was processed food, you know, all sorts of chips and cookies and anything that was shelf stable, but there was nothing healthy in the mix, so forth just really are constantly complaining that they didn't have, they couldn't subsist on pasta for six months. So we needed to have something that was a healthy protein to introduce to balance all the sort of middle of the store things that the husbands were throwing in the cards. And so I thought, oh, wow, if we could create some frozen protein packs that people could keep in the freezer and just pull fish out as they need it. And that would limit the time going to the store. And it would be something that would be helpful during COVID. And I literally put a we have this idea in our little town of COVID response Facebook page, and I got immediate response, please, please, please do it, do it, do it. And so we had just done a new website that had just launched a few months earlier that it sold some gear on it. And so we said to our website, people, hey, if we create these protein packs, can we can you help us get it loaded onto the site. And we ended up partnering with with Shopify, and creating these four lb units of salmon, a variety pack a sword, fish pack, a scallop and lobster pack. And I can't even tell you the response was crazy. And we kept getting all these local, we would deliver locally and we would ship and first we started with the post office. And because the post office had no mail at the time, but what we didn't know is that they were slammed the packages and they couldn't track and they couldn't locate. And Pete and I are dropping all these little boxes to the first to the New Bedford post office and then to Providence in the pouring rain and they're losing half the things and we're writing all these credits, and it was terrible. So then we went to UPS, and they weren't much better, but they were a little better. And we figured out that we should only ship Monday through Wednesday because they lost things in trailers over the weekend. But it was a steep learning curve. But we really learned and what was incredible was the response was almost religious. I mean, people were so appreciative and so thankful, frozen fish. And what we realized is that the majority of what people had been eating frozen, had been chemically treated or was leftover fish. In here. We were taking fresh fish right off the line. You know, it was portioned and then we were hand packing it Pete and me and people in the sales office, were all out there doing it together and getting it in the freezer. So people were getting fish that was fresh, literally 24 hours prior. And the response was tremendous. And we had all of these local people in Barrington in our town that were ordering twice a week. And so our girls would help us because they were home from college. And they would ride the van and we would make deliveries together. And we talk about routes and neighborhoods. And it just became this whole family sort of little mini business. And it actually reminded me back to my great grandfather's day, because so we said four generations later, we're delivering door to door again. Because I thought that it was it has been a neat pivot and the month where business dropped 85% it was the number two gross profit contributor. So I thought well, I'll keep a few lights on. So that was good.

Marc Gutman 28:47

Well, that's it. That's excellent. This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. As he was talking like the thing that jumped out at me, was when you mentioned that most people are Experiencing chemically treated fish fish? That's maybe not what they think it is. And I don't think, you know, I don't I'm not really well educated on this topic. And I don't think a lot of people are like, like, What don't we know about fish? Like what what's going on that that just we're not aware of.

Laura Ramsden 30:16

So fish is your most perishable protein. And as a result of that people industry practice is to add preservatives, and we don't do that. Let me just start by saying that Foley Fish has always been 100% natural, and we are 100% natural, but sadly, there aren't a lot of regulations in seafood for labeling of additives. So a lot of fish will go into a brine tank that will mat bleach out the yellowing, that would be a telltale sign of aging. So instead of the flag and a yellow, they put it into the brine tank and it bleaches it nice and wait and it picks up a little water weight. So now, the six ounces is an eight ounce, so they'll get more money for fish that is fish plus water. It's very prevalent in scalloped, they add things like sodium tripolyphosphate, or they have natural oxides, a sector God side called l pesa. Or something called tough to kisa. They're all these sort of additives that are designed to mask aging and preserve the product and also add false water weight. And so all of those

Peter Ramsden 31:34

Many of those chemicals are fall under a general description known as a moisture enhancers or moisture retainers. So they're, they're okayed by the FDA as just as retaining attributes of seafood as opposed to being fraudulent or being a chemical that needs to be explicitly identified. So it's just part of the process. And is that something that,

Marc Gutman 32:06

You know, is in most of the fish that we're consuming? Like how do we identify that or know that or at least be educated to know that that's what we're consuming?

Laura Ramsden 32:16

So I think if you're buying fish at the big box retailers, you are probably having that. If you are if you take a scholarship and you put it in the pan and you try to brown it and it won't brown or it has that marshmallowy texture then that's got the STP or the Altai PSA l pesa. in it and if you are at a sushi bar and your tuna is watermelon pink, that pink color, that is tuna that's been exposed to gas and with the gas burst all the blood vessels to keep it always red, even though it's all been frozen. So that would be a telltale sign tuna is not that naturally that watermelon II pinky color that you see at the sushi bars. So I hate to introduce fear of eating seafood because I want everyone to love fish and eat fish. But it is a discerning factor and soaked fish are chemically treated fish because they can take older fish that's of lower value and add weight to it and mask aging is a moneymaker and it for the processor. But also the people who are buying are paying a lower price than they would for an all natural fish. So I would just say that if your listeners are out seeing some great deal that it would be buyer beware to me, because typically fish that isn't priced appropriately is fish that has had some soaking at some point during the process.

Marc Gutman 33:55

Yeah, and thanks for that. And they will change we'll shift a little bit instead of talking about what to be worried about, like you mentioned that you want everyone to love and enjoy fish and beyond it being good for the business. Like why is that? What's so great about fish and why do you want people why do you think people should have it as part of their diet and why do you think it's important?

Laura Ramsden 34:17

So I would always encourage people to select fish as your protein. It is the most lean healthful protein that you can consume. In terms of calorie for calorie that health benefits are incredible. Piece of cod, 90 calories for three ounces. About 12 grams of protein, low in fat. It is it's extremely digestible, all seafood. It is so delicious. When people say they don't eat any seafood, I think how can you not eat anything out of the sea? That's like saying you don't need land food. So if you eat it, it's so diverse that What a clam or a muscle or, you know, a piece of lobster or a piece of tuba or sword or soul, or halibut, or salmon, and it all tastes so different. So even if you've tried one fish that isn't your favorite thing, try something else. Because it there's such diversity of flavors and textures. But out of the ocean, you're depriving yourself if you if you don't get to experience, find something that you love, because it really there's there's just such a vast amount of delicious options coming out of the ocean. And it's all so healthy. I think that America would be in such a better place in terms of our fight against obesity and our rising health care costs if more people eat seafood.

Marc Gutman 35:48

Well imagine it's your birthday, and you're having fish. What are you having?

Laura Ramsden 35:53

It's so funny that you asked that it was my dad's birthday last night and we cut it lemon soul for him, which is a giant black back founder. And it's so delicious and sweet and great. So that I think I would have I would go with the lemon soul, I might start with a little tuna tartare because I do like that. But I think I would have the lemon. So Pete, what about you?

Peter Ramsden 36:20

Well, being in this business, yeah, definitely has its perks. And I've always loved shellfish, and particularly oysters. So anytime it's time to celebrate as a time to shuck oysters for me. That's a, you know, week, I can walk out into our cooler on any given day and have a choice of 15 to 20 different oysters to take home. So, but uh, yeah, I grew up fishing on Cape Cod my whole life as a kid. And so striped bass and blue fish and flounder are amongst my favorites.

Marc Gutman 36:56

Well, I'm trying to think what my favorite would be, but, you know, probably I love a great salmon. So thank you for that room. So, Laura, when you were like listing off all the previous family members that had owned and worked in the business, something that really struck me was that they were all men. And, you know, being a woman who is now the CO owner of the business face of the business, one of the main leaders of the business, I have to imagine that there's some challenges. Being a woman in what I perceive, I've never worked in a fish processing plant or fish business, but predominantly male business is a challenging.

Laura Ramsden 37:40

So I'm in big trouble, because my mom is was actually co owner with my dad. So I should have mentioned her it was Linda and Mike Foley were the third generation owners. And when they went to do all of the branding with the retail line of fish, that was all her so I do need to step back and give proper credit. We have a wall in the plant that has my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father and me. And my mother and Peter are not on the walls. So it's called the blood ball. They tease a little about how they should be up there with us. But So to answer your question, I, I actually haven't had issues with being a woman in the fish business. And sometimes To be honest, I think it works to my advantage. Because sometimes when you get a vendor coming in, and there's a chef in the kitchen and dominantly the chefs are male, though there are some amazing women chefs, but generally in industry are males. Sometimes you get the male vendor with the male chef and you've got a lot of ego. And sometimes it's easier for me to go into a kitchen that I think it is because it's not as guarded and they don't get their backup that someone's going to try to sell it be all salesy with them. So if anything, I think it's it's worked to my advantage. And I also think I don't take it for granted that walking in as a Foley a Foley Fish gives me advantages that another woman might not have. So I do recognize that I'm lucky in that regard. But the people on my team, and I work side by side with them out on the floor and they'll say Okay, can I carry that for you? Or can I door for you or whatever and no, no, no, I've got it. I've got it. So they don't see me as a sort of this princess who walks around in high heels. I mean, I put the boots on and go out there so I think that's helpful.

Marc Gutman 39:47

And what about running a business and owning a business with your spouse and this is for both of you like you know, I was their concern there when you took on the business. You know, I when I think of opportunities like this My spouse, I'm always like, I don't know, we're like, you know, it's, it's a it's a moment to think about because it's a really big deal. So what's it like owning a business with your spouse? I'd say

Peter Ramsden 40:11

It's a risk that we probably didn't really give proper attention to or truly think through. I mean, it could have been disastrous, and it could have been the end of our marriage potentially. Thankfully, it didn't go that way. And as we look back upon it, we can say, See, it really did work out well, because we have a complimentary skill set. And there was plenty of turf for each to get involved with the business and compliment my one another. And so as I said, I get involved much more in management and operations and financial side of the business and Laura moreso on the marketing and sales, although as a Foley, you know, you're always involved in selling and customer service. But I think that's helped a lot. And Laura can also chime in, but I think, you know, we do a pretty good job of trying to turn it off, you know, at the dinner table, or over the weekend,

Laura Ramsden 41:11

The kids would disagree.

Peter Ramsden 41:14

So, you know, trying to compartmentalize. And so make sure that we have time as as a couple, and not just as business partners.

Laura Ramsden 41:23

But and I would say a couple things, just to add, to echo what Peter said, distinct division of duties is the key for sure. When I'm looking over his shoulder and his turf, about something or he in mind, we can each bristle. But having our own sort of areas, is has certainly been helpful. Having two plants that are 60 miles apart is also helpful, you go to your corner, I go to mine, but in a really positive thing is that the highs are so much higher when you share them with your spouse. The account when the even the extra item, I made a customer the other day and Pete said, Oh, really two items. And then the read because it was a long drive. And then the rest of the order came in later. And I said Pete, look, they've got six more things on their order. And it was the littlest thing, but he could absolutely understand that when. And so in some regards, I think, gosh, our marriage is that much better. Because we truly understand I'm never thinking where is the wiser at home from work? They're taking advantage of him? Why is he working such long hours? Because I know exactly where he is and why he's there. And I'm thankful that he's putting that time in. And so it I think it's great. It's created a strong partnership. And really, he understands if I'm stressed why I'm stressed. And he could really help in laying things out if there's a problem because he knows exactly what's going on, and vice versa. But he tends to be more the calmer downer that that I am. But certainly, you know, we've traveled together, we've given presentations together. We got to have the Hershey Lodge, right before COVID head and do all these waitstaff trainings, and we have a really good time being out there visiting customers and seeing what people are doing with our seafood. And again, it. It, I think it really enhances our partnership.

Marc Gutman 43:32

So I've been thinking a lot, you know, about businesses that stand the test of time. And one of the things that really keeps coming back that I noticed is this idea of relevancy and reinventing the business and staying relevant that it's not a set it and forget it kind of methodology. It's it's a constant balance between returning to the the core values of the core mission of the business, as well as is evolving as the world around the business evolves. And so how do you approach relevancy and keeping Foley Fish relevant? How do you keep it modern yet traditional? Like how do you approach that?

Laura Ramsden 44:15

Well, definitely doing the new website, which was, you know, an investment that we had to make the decision to people really even look at websites, do they is it really important? We're, we're fish cutters. Why do we need to have a beautiful website and it was a super smart decision, especially when COVID and we could pivot and have that right in place. That was terrific. But adding products, you know, when we think about should we carry this or shouldn't we carry this and is there a market for it? And those are all we're constantly saying, well, we need to do this to stay relevant. So we can't just have my dad say we had one oyster. Now we have 15 oysters and Telling the different stories of oysters, if we had stayed strict and said, We don't need to have all these oysters from Maine and Canada and Cape Cod and Connecticut, people would have gone elsewhere. So really responding and staying relevant to what your customers are looking for, is super important in this business where shops and retailers and purchasing agents have choices. So we have to make sure that our company stays relevant by offering goods and services that differentiate us.

Marc Gutman 45:37

Back in my day, we only had one oyster. Imagine that the the family table that that conversation, why do you need so many oysters?

Laura Ramsden 45:48

And salmon, salmon didn't count. Like, why would you have farmed salmon, that's not a real fish. Now it's like our number one seller,

Peter Ramsden 45:58

We've become much more service oriented to as a company. And that's not that we've always had, you know, people who are the customer interface side. But for the longest time, we sold whole fish and filets and in very basic processing, but as we became more and more involved with high end hotels, and larger group restaurants that were very specific about how they wanted the fish to present on the plate, and you know, it forces into portioning programs. In effect with the expertise we have in our facilities, we became a custom butchers and fabricating the precise cuts, you know, a seven and a half ounce on the bias square cut salmon portion, or a T bone 12 to 14 ounce halibut cut. So, these are the kinds of things that, you know, maybe you expect when you go to your local butcher. But it's something that as a you know, we're not a mechanized operation, we're very much a cut to order, especially fish house. And that has been a pivot for sure to keep us relevant.

Marc Gutman 47:12

And kind of in that vein, like what's the role of sustainability? What role does that play it Foley Fish.

Laura Ramsden 47:19

So when the sustainable fisheries Act went in, in the early 90s, and vast fishing areas were closed, and availability became tight, and prices rose, and it was pretty impactful for Foley Fish. My dad said, we've got to get involved so that we understand better what what's going on with management and sustaining the fisheries. And so we've actually been involved in fishery management in one way or another since the early 90s. And really trying to understand what how we define sustainable and what species we should be promoting and why. And so we've had people working on the ground fish advisory panel that advises the Fishery Management Council on basically the targets and the science around the ground fish stocks here in New England. Also, some I'm working on the highly migratory species panel, understanding the rules and regs on sword and tuna. So that way back, you know, when there was a swordfish boycott, we could really speak to that to our customers and explain to them that it was the US that were actually the most sustainable fishery in the world, and that we shouldn't be boycotting them. We should be promoting is we're gonna lose the quota. And our guys are the ones with the right gear. But so we really use our involvement I was on I was appointed by Governor Patrick, as a national fisheries manager. For three years I've been doing the district Management Council, one of eight fishery councils advantage that the federal waters of the United States. And so when you sit in all of these meetings, I was on the ground fish committee, the skate committee and the scholarship committee, you're privy to all the science coming out of Woods Hole. And so I could say, Wow, they're fishing in these areas. The open areas for scholarships this year are going to be these areas. And you're literally on these in these committees with fishermen and developers and you're learning about Okay, well, that area is going to be yielding more of the 10 jumbo scallops are this areas are going to be yielding more of the 3040 or 2030s. And so what we try to do is use the information that we were gleaning from our involvement to direct menus and retail emotions towards species that were abundant. So when people would come we do it Foley School of Fish, pre COVID. We would do it, you know, four times a year, and we would do all sorts of menu planning. Literally breakfast on to dinner, people are eating fish that would come visit us and showing them monkfish, and Pollock and skeet, and Katie and red fish and haik. And all of these species that we knew to be abundantly harvested with strong biomass. And we really tried to use our knowledge our to educate our customers, and direct them towards the most sustainable feet species coming out of our waters, so that they could really differentiate their menus because some crazy percentage, I don't know what the exact number is now, but 92% of seafood in America is imported. So every other menu in the US is featuring all this pasteurized crab meat from Indonesia and tilapia and, you know, to lay and salmon, that if they started putting these species on their menus that were sustainable, harvested right here in New England, they were going to have differentiable menus, so different, you know, competitive, competitive advantage. But also, because these species were abundant price points, were going to be lower so that they could actually make money while differentiating their menu while offering a sustainable species. So that was sort of trifecta of recommendations to trying to, you know, get New England fish on menus across the country, and really support the small fishermen who were operating under tremendous regulation to ensure that the fisheries of New England stays sustainable.

Marc Gutman 51:32

And so, what does the future look like for Foley Fish?

Laura Ramsden 51:37

One day at a time Marc.

Marc Gutman 51:40

Do you know if the next generation will be targeted to are you planning that talk where you're gonna sit your kids down and say, hey, it's up to you, your only hope.

Laura Ramsden 51:51

So our son is a teacher and a Spanish teacher and a coach and he loves the world of education, and our other daughter is, is headed to is in banking, and hopefully New York City one of these days, and then our other daughter is still in college. So I don't think we're tapping them quite yet. So we're, we're still young, I'm only 51. And he's 56. So we've got some time to figure that out. And

Marc Gutman 52:19

Most certainly, I mean, if that's any indication, I notice a notice it's a pattern for those who have pursued a career in banking to abandon that to come work at the come work at Foley Fish. It looks like that's not known that only Peters story, but I think one of your either your father your grandfather's I read on the website as well.

Laura Ramsden 52:38

Yes, yes. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I'm gonna I am gonna remind her that.

Marc Gutman 52:44

I have one last question for the both of you. If you ran in to your 20 year old self today, what do you think that they'd say? seeing where you are now?

Peter Ramsden 52:54

Okay, I'll start. I think my 20-year-old self would say, gee it all worked out. And, boy, that's not anything like what I was anticipating. But I'm glad it worked out. And it's a search certainly seems like a nice life.

Laura Ramsden 53:14

What would my 20-year-old self say to 51 year old me?

Marc Gutman 53:19

Exactly. What would she say?

Laura Ramsden 53:22

What the heck are you doing back in Barrington, Rhode Island with three kids in the fish business? And she would definitely say that. I told my parents I was never coming back to this all town in Rhode Island and all these people in Rhode Island that worked for their family businesses, and they never left and here I am. My 20 year old thought she was so smart. And yet, as Pete said, it's a great life and a great community and being at this family business that I thought was so somewhere I would never come back to is been just a really wonderful life experience that I feel really now. My 51 year old self realizes I'm so fortunate to have had this opportunity.

Marc Gutman 54:20

And that is Laura and Peter Ramsden. Before we finish. I love the idea of a business existing for 114 years. The only way a business can stay relevant that long is to reinvent itself and evolve with the times the ramsdens have done exactly that. I'm looking forward to what the future brings for Foley Fish. I for 1am going to their website and ordering a couple of protein packs right after I'm done recording this. A big thank you to Laura and Peter and the team at Foley Fish. keep bringing in the fresh fish and we'll keep eating it and if you know of a guest To should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Laura and Peter come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 042: Ron Tite | Church + State | Everyone Loves a Funny Business Guy

BGBS 042: Ron Tite | Church + State | Everyone Loves a Funny Business Guy

With experience writing books about branding and creativity, founding Church+State, and headlining his own comedy show, we think it’s safe to say that Ron Tite is a well-rounded guy. Luckily for us, he doesn’t stop there. Ron has written, produced, and performed a hit play, been a creative director for some of the world’s most respected brands such as Volvo and Intel, and created a branded art gallery. Ron also inspires us with the skillset to blend his experience with art and commerce to speak all over the world.

As we sit down with Ron, we touch on how Church+State unifies the worlds of content and advertising and why agencies shouldn’t compromise the soul within it all just for scale. Working in an ever-changing industry, it comes as no surprise to us that Ron is all about redefining and adapting to change. We learn that at the precipice of each great decision, Ron asks himself, “How can I pursue this feeling?”, motivating us to do the same.

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• The name Church+State comes from the fact that the worlds of content and advertising used to be kept separate—like the separation of church and state—and they are now being unified within this agency
• With the low cost of content production and distribution, the result is the “expression economy” where anyone can express themselves, thus challenging large media companies to make a disruption and stand out from the average person
• With startup culture, it’s all about the pivot. The industry is moving too quickly to always know if a strategy is going to work, so you need an agency that may not know all the answers, but is committed to getting it right
• Ron’s company wasn’t always called Church+State, but he decided to spend his weeks building the business and letting the name come over time rather than finding the perfect name from the start
• Ron originally went to university to complete a degree in physical education and later become a teacher
• At 17-years-old, Ron got a job at a camp with no experience of ever going to camp as a child. This was his first exposure of ever doing things on his own
• The way Ron’s family would tell these amazing, animated stories with the same beats and energy every time is what inspired his love of comedic storytelling
• Ron’s first-ever stand-up comedy set was 45 minutes long because he produced the show and made himself the headliner
• One of the most powerful moments that Ron ever had on stage was not of uproarious laughter, but during the silence of strategic thought and emotion among the audience
• There is an aspect of advertising that is “assembly-line driven”, but you need to add original thinking and “soul” to keep up with the changing tides of humanity

Resources

Ron Tite Website

The Coup Podcast

Church + State Website

Ron Tite Instagram

Ron Tite Facebook

Quotes

[32:02] There’s a rule in comedy and it’s either they laughed or they didn’t…I love that it’s the ultimate accountability.

[37:57] I think that we have to be greedy with our chasing emotions, as opposed to chasing ego.

[38:16] Nobody wants to listen to a comedian who knows about business. No one believes that guy because comedians don’t know about business. But everybody wants to listen to a funny business guy.

[44:44] Consumers go to a website, they look at a pair of shoes, and the pair of shoes follow them around for the next month. I mean, it’s just constant pitch-slapping from every angle, and we just have to be better than this…We can’t lose the soul of this.

Podcast Transcript

Ron Tite 0:02

And so what I did was I just kind of thought, let’s start from birth. And I started there, you know, as you start to go through the bits, then you end up going or what links the bits like, “What’s the thread that goes through all this?” And so it was really about my life growing up quite poor. And then the name of the show was Captain Crunch flashback. So it was really just about growing up in a hand me down clothes kind of environment in a blue-collar town. And my mom was there. It was, which was amazing that my mom got to see it, because it really it’s kind of a backhanded homage to my mom who is an incredible woman.

Marc Gutman 0:46

Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today’s most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today’s episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking with Founder and Chief Creative Officer Ron Tite from the advertising agency, Church and State out of Toronto, Canada, where to cool name Church and State. A best selling author, speaker, producer and entrepreneur, Ron Tite has always blurred the lines between art and commerce. And he has been an award-winning advertising writer and creative director for some of the world’s most respected brands including Air France, Evian, Fidelity, Hershey, Johnson and Johnson, Kraft, Intel, Microsoft, Volvo and many others. If you’re listening now, do you recognize any of those brand names? I’m sure you do. Those are all heavy hitters.

He is founder of Church and State, host and executive producer of the hit podcast The Coup and publisher of This is That travel guide to Canada, a best selling an award-winning satirical book. He has written for television, penned a children’s book, wrote, produced and performed a hit play, created a branded Art Gallery, then was executive producer and host of the award-winning comedy show, Monkey toast. If that’s not enough, he’s an in-demand speaker all over the world. And Ron speaks to leading organizations about leadership disruption, branding, and creativity. All topics that we are going to cover on today’s episode. Ron’s first book, Everyone’s an Artist, or At Least They Should Be, which was co-written by Scott Kavanaugh and Christopher Novice was published by HarperCollins in 2016. And his most recent book, Think Do Say: How to Seize Attention and Build Trust in a Busy, Busy World hit store shelves in October of 2019.

Hey, now, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the Apple charts. And we like ratings. So please, if you haven’t rated us or if you know someone who’s listening who hasn’t given us a good five-star review, please hop on over there and do that. It is a tremendous help to the podcast. Back to Ron Tite. I had a lot of fun with this interview. Ron is well, A funny guy, and he’s made a career out of what I’ve longed to believe the secret recipe, blend two things that you’re good at that aren’t necessarily related. And Ron’s case, he took advertising and his love for stand up comedy in the stage and combined it into a creative career, leading him to work with some of the world’s biggest brands. Let’s not waste any time and let’s get right into it. with Ron Tite.

So I’m here with Ron Tite, the founder and Chief Creative Officer of Church and State out of Toronto, a creative agency up in Toronto, Canada. And so Ron, thanks for coming on the show. And if you could just launch right in. Let’s not waste any time watch it tell me about Church and State what is Church and State and what makes you so interesting?

Ron Tite 4:20

I’ll leave it for your listeners to decide whether I’ve interesting or not. But thank you, Mark, thanks for having me on. And yeah, well, let’s just jump right into it, church and state and I feel like I should go into this like scripted elevator pitch kind of thing. Church and State is a multi-dimensional cross solution provider of dissolute Asia… This is what we are. We think that, you know, the worlds of content and advertising used to be separate and kept separate.

It was the separation of church and state and we think that those worlds are now unified. And so we have unified the worlds of content and advertising in convenient agency form. And so we do it, you know, stuff that can be defined as pure pure pure-play content, stuff that can be defined as pure play advertising. And as we all know, most of this stuff is kind of somewhere in the middle. And so we work with large global clients like Walmart and Doordash. And we just want scouts, Scouts Canada, and we do some work with Microsoft and to shield insurance and a whole bunch of other friendly lovely people.

Marc Gutman 5:34

That well I love that the tie in of your positioning to your name, church and state and your worldview on how you’re approaching brand and marketing and communications. I mean, how did that come about? Like, you know, that is a little bit? You know, there has been a shift, you know, I mean, there, there was content, there was advertising, there’s all these different, you know, disciplines within brand and marketing, but now, it’s all kind of blending and it’s all it’s all and we never know like where does one start? One does? One does, where does one leave off? You know, when do you stop bleeding into another discipline or area or department of marketing or brands? So how did that all come about for you? I mean, it’s I find that really intriguing, really awesome.

Ron Tite 6:19

Yeah, well, thank you. It started when I was so I was before I started Church and State I was Executive Creative Director at an agency called Havas, in Havas Khanna Havas Toronto. And I would it started with me but you know, I was at a shoot in Montevideo, Uruguay, and kind of looked back and saw this crew shot of all these people. And it was like, Hi, that how the hell and we said like it literally turned on producer and said, How the hell are we still doing that? Like, how are we so flying halfway around the world to shoot 15 seconds, for medium that fewer and fewer people are watching. And so it started there. And then and then I realized, like, I gotta I gotta quit. So I quit. I just resigned to figure it all out. And what I as I dug into it, and I started, I thought that nobody was talking to the entire ecosystem. There were some people who were saying, oh, the national newspapers and the TV networks, those people are dead.

And other people saying, oh, the big cpgs and big traditional marketing companies, they’re dead and other using a big agencies are dead. But nobody was looking at the interplay between all those things. And that, while completely different ecosystems are both completely different worlds of, you know, the worlds of television content, and television advertising. They were completely dependent on one another. And I thought that all of those worlds were being disrupted, and no one was looking at it. And when you look at you know, the lower cost of production meant anybody could produce content, the relative ease of global and immediate distribution meant that anybody could distribute content. A

nd when you combine, you know, low cost of content production with low cost of content distribution, you end up with this dynamic where, you know, it’s something that I called the expression economy, which is like, Well, everyone is just expressing themselves. And that the large media companies have to disrupt themselves just as much as the large marketers and large agencies. So I wrote this line that was just about to succeed, brands need to act like media properties and media properties need to act like brands. And then I thought, well, what the hell is that? That’s a great line. I don’t know what it meant. So I just need to just roll up my sleeves and figure it out. But what did that actually mean? And how would one go about solving that problem? And I thought, I’m gonna solve it on my own. And so I started the tight group first. And I call it the tight group, because I wasn’t exactly sure what problem I was solving.

I wasn’t exactly sure whether I was gonna solve that as a consulting firm or as an agency or as a production company. I didn’t know I just wanted to solve the problem the best way possible. So I started out called the tight group and then eventually, like, three years into it, it was like, Oh, this is what we do. This is the perspective we have that name no longer matches with what we do. We need to we need to rebrand

Marc Gutman 9:24

and so about when was it when you kind of had this epiphany of what this new era was going to look like, as I heard you speaking like I don’t want to say like it’s happened overnight because you know, we’ve been a part of this sort of movement where like you said everyone’s a content creator. I mean, what we can do with the phone in our pockets amazing like you don’t need you know, huge television crews and I don’t think you know this about me when I came out of the movie industry. I worked in the movie industry.

Yeah, first first part of my career so very familiar with at all and but I but I also as I heard you talking I was kind of chuckling to myself because I remember not that long ago. I want to say maybe my memories like, like rough for myself. But maybe 5, 6 years ago, I thought to myself, wow, I probably will never cut the cord. I love my direct tv and my sports and things like that. And now like I sit today and like I watch no tell it like traditional television and if i do i watch it as a streaming device. My children don’t even know what cable is they watch YouTube and everything else and TikTok so like, like for you? When was this like revelation? Like, when did you like really see it in

Ron Tite 10:29

1968? No. It was in 2011.

Marc Gutman 10:36

So yeah, I mean, that’s that’s like still nine years ago. I mean, that’s like crazy to me that that’s really visionary in terms of making a bet. On where you think this is all going?

Ron Tite 10:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think and I didn’t know, I know. It’s just like, I think this is where things are going. And I know, why isn’t anybody talking about this? And one of the things I that that really solidified it for me, I remember turning on the television back when I had cable, and like you, I’ve completely cut the cord. But I remember turning in and sometimes was this young child in Detroit, you may have come up to Toronto to watch a Blue Jays game to play your beloved Tigers, see your beloved Tigers play the Blue Jays,

well, I turned on the television to watch a sports program. And so I turn on the TV and the show was called primetime sports. Now, Primetime sports was a discussion, sports show. And primetime sports was a radio show, owned by Rogers Communications. And it aired on a radio station called the Fan 590. owned by Rogers Communications.

It was- they put a couple of cameras in the corner. And they shot the discussion. And that TV show that was generated out of filming a radio show was owned by Rogers. It was then aired on a national television network called sports net owned by Rogers. And when they cut to commercial break, they advertised cell phones owned by Rogers Communications, the only thing missing was out of that entire ecosystem was the thing that they were talking about. And oh, that was the Toronto Blue Jays owned by Rogers Communications.

So the content that was being discussed was owned by the parent company on a platform on television owned by the parent company, on radio owned by the parent company. And when they cut to commercial break, it was products owned by the parent company. And so the pessimists may look at that and go this is corporate greed. This is you know that we’ve lost the editorial credibility, the optimist or the or those who are biased, would say this is a glorious thing. This is a glorious thing, because the viewer doesn’t care.

They don’t care who owns what, now it does raise some questions. It raises questions around when the when, when that show airs. The top story is of the Toronto Blue Jays. Is it really the top sports story that day? Or is it because they want to drive bumps in the seats? Again, the viewer will decide when they’ve walked across that line. I just think that it’s amazing that a brand is both owning the content and owning the advertising, then the entire revenue ecosystem. And when I saw that I was like, this is a changed game. And why aren’t we watching our television news broadcast be the Wall Street Journal news hour? Why is it the CBS Evening News. And it’s because the traditional media companies think of themselves as the media in which they are deployed in and they’re not their brands, they need to extend into other areas.

Marc Gutman 14:03

And then so what was your first sort of taste or or use case of how you actually deployed that or saw that work in it in the new era?

Ron Tite 14:13

I did some consulting before I was it was kind of under the agency banner, but it was really just me and I went into consulting to a radio show. And what they wanted to do was, you know, increase viewership or listenership and stuff. And so I, you know, develop this platform, and it was like, Look, this is you’re going to get behind at all conversation, because great things and issues are solved when we just sit down and have adult conversation.

That was the brand belief. And then I said, you know, there’s a neighborhood in Toronto where there’s always a debate as to whether you call the beaches versus the beach, and I said, so if there’s a town meeting behind, whether it’s called the beaches or the beach, you need to get behind and sponsor that conversation. You need to be there live. And they said, do we go and record it for the radio.

And I said, Well, you Maybe, but that doesn’t really matter that you’re just gonna you’re gonna sponsor the live conversation. And they’re like, but we’re a radio show, you know, they just they didn’t get the world of branding that they could actually be something else other than radio if they built the brand. So that was the first thing was like, Oh yeah, this is where I need to extend. And then the first traditional client was a client called AB world foods, which owns pretax Indian sauces and Blue Dragon Asian sauces. And I was like, what could we do for that a really traditional CPG? And what did we do? Of course, we did recipe videos, and we did, we did cookbooks, and we deployed through social media. And it was, you know, the goal of the business was to double in five years, and then we beat that timeline.

Marc Gutman 15:46

Yeah, then, you know, thanks for sharing that. And I really loved your explanation of how you started the Tite group, and then morphed into Church and State. And so like, I think that’s really interesting. I think a lot of people, especially creatives, those that are in this space, think, you know, I have to figure it all out. Before I get into business, I have to have the perfect name, I’ve got to have the perfect positioning.

And what I heard from you is like, you know, you wanted that I’m sure, I’m sure you’ve wrestled with some of those questions. But at the same time, it was more important to get in business and kind of figure it out, like kind of get your hands a little dirty, and figure out where the problems were and what you were passionate about. And so did I reflect that pretty accurately? I mean, is would you say that that was a good recipe to get to where you are today?

Ron Tite 16:33

Yeah, I agree with you. I think, I felt a little bit of that pressure, like, oh, what’s it gonna be called? And what’s it, you know, and I just, I kept telling myself, to push my ego to the side. And because that’s what we want, right? We want to go out, the first thing that people see in here is they have this amazing idea where they shower us with, you know, appreciation and confetti. And the reality is, like, I don’t know, many businesses that go that way. I mean, we look at startup culture, it’s all about the pivot. And so I just wanted to give myself the opportunity to do it, right. And I knew, I even told our client, our AB world foods client, when we first pitch them. And when they say I presented this whole new strategy and this approach, and they’re like, Okay, give us some examples of it working.

And I suppose I don’t have any I’ve never done it before. And then I said, Look, if an agency tells you that they have all the answers, they’re lying, they’re just lying. Because stuff is moving way too quickly, for people to have definitive answers. And what you should really want is a partner who’s committed to getting it right hundred percent.

But who’s collaborative in nature since that, because we’re all going through a lot of these things from the very first time. And so let’s just have that as our, you know, as this core belief that we’re gonna figure it out. And we’ll be really, really collaborative, but I just, I didn’t feel the pressure to have it on day one. And I also gave myself six months, and said, if this doesn’t work in six months, I don’t see a hint that you know, there’s a market for this, I’ll just shut it down.

I didn’t, I didn’t care. And then the name the Tite group, because I didn’t know what precisely it was going to be. And I thought, I can either spend weeks on coming up with the perfect name, or I can spend weeks on building the business. I’m going to build the business and I didn’t have a website at first and I didn’t like all that was, I don’t know, I just find people. They feel like they’ve got to have all that promotional stuff. Like what are you promoting, if you haven’t figured it out yet? So I just focused on building the business.

Marc Gutman 18:38

And so did you grew up in Toronto?

Ron Tite 18:40

Well, similar to you, Marc, I’m not from Detroit. But I originally from Montreal, but I grew up in a city about an hour east of Toronto called Oshawa, Ontario, home to the largest General Motors plant in the country, at least it was at one point, it is no longer. So I grew up a mile down the road from the largest General Motors plant in the country.

Marc Gutman 19:04

And as a young lad, were you outside the General Motors plant? Did you think that that was going to be more your future? Or were you having early signs? Like, hey, like, I might be into this for advertising/branding/marketing thing?

Ron Tite 19:18

Yeah, no, I had no, I had nothing to do with marketing advertising didn’t know it existed as a profession or anything. I was the first one in my family to go to university. So I didn’t, I didn’t have that internal mentorship at home to go like, hey, these are all the amazing things you could do with a career. And certainly there are amazing sorry, there are amazing things that one can do without a university education and absolutely amazing things. I was maybe just a little bit more curious about the life that existed beyond the Oshawa borders.

And so I know I just I was never really that into it. I didn’t feel like I fit in there. I didn’t have that as an interest in any way, shape or form. I just went to university because I thought I was going to be a teacher. I did a phys ed degree because I wrestled and I knew, you know, some of my mentors were great coaches and phys ed teachers. And then I got in, I was like, oh, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff I could do here. And it was what’s really weird was when I was 17. I saw or it may have come beforehand, but I saw the movie meatballs, have you seen the movie meatballs?

Marc Gutman 20:26

Bill Murray, Rudy the rabbit. Yeah.

Ron Tite 20:32

Right? So I saw that movie. And I went to my mom. And I was like, What is this? What do you mean, people go to camp? And she’s like, well, we could not afford for you to do that. And it’s like the people that go and they sleep away in a ca- like, what the hell? What is that? So when I turned 17, I realized I could go and get a job at a camp. I’m like, yep, let me do that. I want to check this out.

No history of ever going to camp, no idea what took place there. And I went to camp. And I think that was, I think, the biggest change in my life where I was like, Oh, I could actually do different things and experience different things on my own. And that’s actually not that difficult to do. You just have to be willing to do it. And so I did a phys ed degree and then started working in the business school at the University, and then started kind of helping marketing out. And it was this interesting period when the internet had just been created, right. And this is I graduated University in 1993, didn’t have an email address my last year of university, but had one my first year of work. So I could immerse myself in that, and know that nobody else knew what to do, because it was so new. So that’s what I did.

Marc Gutman 21:49

And when you say you immerse yourself, like, what, what was going on? What were you immersing into,like?

Ron Tite 21:56

I liken it a lot to like, you know, like, we could never afford for us to ski grow. I didn’t ski I didn’t know what skiing culture was. And so in university, I never went on ski trips, because I didn’t want to be the idiot who you know, kept falling. You know, people would have to wait for me. But when snowboarding came out, I was like, ah, nobody knows snowboarding. So I’m just going to go and snowboard and I’m going to leapfrog everybody. And so I did that same thing with the internet. Nobody knew about internet marketing, it didn’t exist.

So I got a job, I put my hand up to be the client on the first ever queens Business School website, we developed that I developed it with a web company. Then I went to work for that web company, and started being an account person who also taught myself a little bit of HTML. So I could now code and like in a really basic level, and then I was like, Oh, you’re tech-savvy. And I was like, well, that means I’m not geeky. They’re like, No, you understand the internet? And I was like, Ah, yeah, okay, I guess I kinda understand the internet.

Marc Gutman 23:01

And then what happened? And so like, so you understood the Internet, and then and then what was going on?

Ron Tite 23:07

So I was at this agency at the time, called sharp Blackmore, and we were the web partner for that agency. And I remember like that company, that web company I was with was just kind of going through a little bit of difficulty, and I just volunteered to leave and I was like, I’m just gonna go. And and they’re great, lovely people. And the chairman of the agency goes, I hear you’re like, you’re leaving, like, why? And he’s like, would you ever think of working in advertising? I was like, no. And he’s like, well, it’s not rocket science. It’s basically making a list and checking it off. That’s what being an account person in advertising is. And the reason that he made the offer to me was because they knew that I was funny.

So I hadn’t I wasn’t quite doing stand up comedy yet at this point. But I had done a couple of things. And they’re like, that guy’s really funny. So I’m willing to bet that they made the decision completely to bring me aboard. Not just because I knew the internet and could walk into and manage the Intel business. But because I was funny, and that they saw that I could, I would be a good relationship person and that I would fit well, culturally. But I think my sense of humor had more with me getting that job than my tech-savviness.

Marc Gutman 24:28

Yeah, and I’d noticed and doing a little pre-research for the interview that you interweave stand up with, when you keynote and things like that, and you refer you you say that you do stand up. Like we’re I’d like to get into that like how you kind of discovered comedy and how that kind of pairs with your business. But also like before we get into that, like I like where does your sense of humor come from like, like you said, you were funny. So I’m guessing that you know, throughout you know, your middle school, you know, high school years university like yeah, they’re like Ron’s a funny guy? Well, you’re like, Where did that come from? Like that? Was that- was there humor in your house? Or do you trace that back to you?

Ron Tite 25:07

It’s a great question. And I wasn’t the class clown. Like, I wasn’t that I wasn’t the guy who was like, oh, that guy’s gonna go- In fact, when I remember going back and my wrestling team got together. And my wrestling coach showed up a guy named Craig Mathew, who’s a wonderful human being. And he just looked at me and goes, a comedian, who would have thought?

He didn’t even I, you know, wasn’t, I think they could say I was funny in high school. But I’m not that traditional class clown sense of funny. But where it came from was my, my mom’s side of the family was like half Quebecois, and half Italian. And so I would just sat around the dinner table and heard these stories from my uncles, and my cousins and my aunts and my grandparents. And what I think was really great was that, not only when I hear these great animated, very detailed stories, but when somebody new would come to like a family celebration, and somebody would say, Tell him that story. And even though everybody around the table already heard the story, they would tell the story again, for the new person, but they tell it the same way. All the beats were in there, all the accents were in there, all the specific lines of dialogue.

So my family knew the art of working a bit long before I did as an official comedian. Because you know, that’s what you do with a bit is you come up with an interesting insight, you build the story, you build the performance. And then when it’s, you know, to bring the car life back in. Once it’s on the assembly line, you duplicate it over and over and over again. And that I think, was like, oh, that like, they tell the best story possible. And then they retell it and retell it and retail. And that I think is a is a great approach for comedy.

Marc Gutman 27:08

This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn’t that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn’t a logo, or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product service or company. It’s what people say about you, when you’re not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. And that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about. Reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we’d be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show.

Yeah, and so then when did you actually get into to doing comedy, turning being a natural storyteller into to stand up and I’ve got a real interest in this. I just published an Instagram carousel the other day kind of relaying my experience about this, but like I, I speak as well. And to be honest, like when I get on stage, I’m like, scared and one of the things I did to overcome that, and I used to write comedy and in the movie business, alright, so like, I, you know, I have that background.

But I do not like being on camera or having the mic in my hand. And so I worked with a comedian and I delivered a set in New York City about a year ago. And it was like, the most terrifying thing I’ve ever done. And I could talk for you know, like, so long about why but I mean, it’s a lot of it’s your truth and you’re putting something out there. You’re like, Hey, I think this is funny, not just like, Hey, I think this is a good ad, right? Yeah, you know, it’s way different to me and I had a panic attack the night before and pulled it together for the show.

And I look back finally is like that’s one of the biggest growth experiences I’ve had as an adult like I really, you know, that really meant a lot to me that I was able to do that. So like When did you get into it? And how did that like fit into your career and you know, you’re on this advertising, you know, career path, not a stand-up comedian career path?

Ron Tite 29:23

Yeah, I had always loved it. I’d always loved the craft of stand up and in grade 10 I got up in front of like, 1000 people and did it it’s horrible to say this now a Bill Cosby bit called The Dentist and, and I just did like an impersonation of him, but him doing the bit. And when I did that, and the first time I made the laugh, the crowd laugh. That’s pretty powerful. A thousand people laughing at something you did on stage with the spotlight on you. How’s that? Oh, I’m more like how do I get that feeling again? Because that’s pretty cool. So I kind of always just, I was a fan of stand up. And then I was doing stuff at second city from an improv standpoint. And then I was like, ah, but I’m not an improviser.

Like I really want to do stand up. I really want to see the method to the madness. So I went to my friend, Steve, I was like, I want to do stand up. How do I how do I do it? He’s like, go to Yuk Yuks downtown, you sign up to do a Monday night, open mic, you do five minutes. You just keep going back every week. And then once your five minutes is good enough, they’ll invite you to come on a Tuesday night and do seven minutes as an opener, then you get a midler than a headliner, blah, blah, blah, after 10 years, whatever.

So I went down and checked, I was like, I’m just gonna go check it out. So I go check it out. And it was a shit show. It was like, This is not fun. These people aren’t funny. That guy lost a bat. That guy’s drunk, like Forget it. I’m, I’m already better than this. I know, I’m better than this. I’m not doing it. So I went back. I was like, What else can I do? It’s like, Well, the only other thing I guess is you can find a producer who’s producing a live show, convince them to give you five minutes, even though you’ve never done it before. And maybe someone will let you on their show.

And then I just thought, Well, why don’t I just make myself the producer? And I’ll just make myself the producer. So my very first time doing stand up comedy of my own material ever. I would did a 45-minute headlining set, because I produced the show. So I just made myself the headliner, and did 45 and brought in some friends to open up and sold it and gave the money away to charity from the dorm sold out the room. And if you can do a 45 minute stand up set if you’re a comedian. So after one night, it was like, Oh, you’re a comedian.

Okay, so then I people are like, can you come do a 20-minute set? And I’m like, whew, for 20 minutes. Yeah, I can cut it down to one minute set. And then I what’s great, and I think was probably behind your panic attack, is that there’s no excuses. Like, there’s literally no excuse, and you could blame the crowd. And you can blame the environment, everything else. But there’s a rule in comedy. And that’s either they laughed, or they didn’t. And if you can’t figure out a way to make them laugh, then that’s on you. And there’s just there’s nowhere to run. It’s you and a mic. And that’s it, figure it out. And I love It’s the ultimate accountability.

Marc Gutman 32:18

Yeah. And it’s so cool. I mean, you know, people want that, you know, people want to laugh, like they’re in the club to laugh, right? And so if you can’t do it, it is on you, for sure. And within that first set, like, how did you come up with 45 minutes material? Where you, did you like, check out a book at a library? How do you stand up to just read your own jokes, and were some of the jokes that were in there,

Ron Tite 32:40

I wrote it. And because that what’s interesting is as a comedian, then you and you can appreciate this as a speaker, right? That it’s very rare for you to get up and go, like, I’ve got 45 minutes of brand new material that I’ve never done before. Like, it’s usually like, I got five new minutes, and then you just, you know, like sourdough bread or just over the year, you end up duplicating and replacing your material.

But I just, and there were no, I didn’t want to go to open mic night to test it out. So I just tested this out on my own. And I just kept working the materials, not like I sat down on one sitting, I just kept working the material in my head in the shower, I’d stand up, I deliver it to myself in the mirror kind of thing. Like I would just continue to do the material over and over and over and over and over again. And then you just it gets better and it gets better, it gets better. And so what I did was I just kind of thought, let’s start from birth. And I started there, you know, as you start to go through the bits, then you end up going

well what links the bits? like what’s the thread that goes through all this? And so it was really about my life growing up quite poor. And then the name of the show was Captain Crunch flashback. So it was really just about growing up in a hand me down clothes kind of environment in a blue-collar town. And my mom was there and it was, which was amazing that my mom got to see it. Because it really it’s kind of a backhanded homage to my mom who was an incredible woman.

Marc Gutman 34:05

So you produce your own show. So like, let’s kind of catch up with what’s going on at this time. You’ve produced your own show, what’s going on in your career?

Ron Tite 34:13

I was in at that point, I was an account guy running the Intel business. And then I decided the next big kind of pivot was that I decided to wreck take my Standard material and write it into play form. So I wrote a one-man play. And the way to do that is you can take the stand up material as its base, but to make it a play, you have to expose the emotional underbelly that has informed the comedy.

But why are you looking to make fun of that situation? What’s the emotional reason you’re looking for laughter or for justification or for acceptance or whatever? And what does that narrative like? And so I wrote this play called the Canadian Baby Bonus and went out and delivered it at the Edmonton Fringe Festival, which is the largest Fringe Festival in North America. Sold out a bunch of shows and, you know, did this play and it was like a completely different experience. And two things happened in that performance that I think that drastically altered my life. The first is that I was performing and there’s a moment in the play where it’s a call back to something rather poignant earlier in the play. And it is a silence. You know, it’s a line you deliver in silence. And so and the line is, be careful. And so I said, So hey, and the room was silent. And all I heard was this woman in the front row go, Ah, and she knew precisely what the next line was going to be before I said it.

And that is the most powerful moment I’ve ever had on stage, where you’ve got somebody emotionally in the palm of your hand, and you can take them wherever the hell you want to take them. You could I could have followed up with a joke. And she would have laughed her face off, I could have followed up with something emotional, she would have cried out could have followed up with something direct and poignant. She would have been, you know, we should have stopped to think about it. So that was a really powerful moment, and that I appreciated the emotional feeling that I got from that moment from the silence way more than I did the uproarious laughter, it was way more fulfilling. And so began, like, how do I pursue that feeling? The feeling of Yes, setting them up with the laughter, but silencing them with strategic thoughts, or emotional thoughts? How do I do that?

The second thing that occurred was that I was caught in the hotel fire on my final night of the performance, and so mad, I mean, there’s somebody that hated this job, that torched the hotel. But I ended up getting plucked from the window by a cherry picker on a fire truck The next morning, and I returned the agency and said, my life flashed before my eyes and accounting services didn’t make the final cut. And I’m going to move into the creative department. And, and I did what I wanted my, my comedy life on my advertising life to be more closely aligned.

Because I just thought that was, instead of chasing these two things, that maybe actually chase one thing that had complementary skill sets. And so I immediately joined the creative department as a junior copywriter. And I said I would take a pay cut to do it. And to their credit, they told me that I should screw off and never take a pay cut. And then I just, you know, became senior writer, you know, associate creative director, creative director, Executive Creative Director, and then left and started my own thing.

Marc Gutman 37:37

Yeah, I mean, I’m so fascinated that you had, what, to me sounds like, some real momentum going behind your comedy, behind the play. Why not continue down that path? Why come back to advertising, even in the copywriting realm?

Ron Tite 37:56

I think that we have to be greedy with our chasing emotions, and opposed to chasing ego. Because I’ll be honest with you, like when I, when I started dialing up my comedy in the move to speaking was like, nobody wants to listen to a comedian who knows about business. No, no one, no one believes that guy, because comedians don’t know about business. But everybody wants to listen to a funny business guy. So that was the ultimate pivot was to the point that I went to my- the speaker’s bureau and said, Never refer to me as a comedian again, because I lose credibility by going and I don’t want to be a comedian. I’m a business guy who just happens to be funny. But they’ll buy that. And they’ll pay more for that than they will for the, you know, the after-dinner entertainment. I didn’t want to do that anymore. But the biggest difficulty was the ego difficulty, because man, you know how cool it is to be at a party and somebody say, what do you do? And you say, I’m a comedian. Like, you’re suddenly the coolest guy in the room.

Marc Gutman 39:01

Yeah I’ve done it once and I’ve been riding it ever since.

Ron Tite 39:06

But you have to be honest with yourself. It’s like, but what, but in the moment, do you really, really love it? And I loved aspects of it. But I just saw that I was more interested in pursuing a speaking life that used comedy, The said about more important messages. And I thought, I’m gonna be more fulfilled with that, you know, and I’ve had opportunities where it’s like, hey, do you want to host this TV show? It’s like, it’s a Reno Show. I’m like, now I’m not doing that. It’s not I’m just at that point in my career where I know what I need to do to continually get better at the thing that I’m already good at. And these outside things that I maybe would have pursued in my 20s and 30s. Like, I just don’t, I don’t really do those anymore. I try and live within a tighter circle, if that makes sense.

But I think it just comes down to what do you really want to do and I didn’t really Want to, here’s what I didn’t want to do, I didn’t want to be a waiter, waiting on tables during the day waiting for my comedy career to take off. Because I had seen people who were brilliantly funny, but who just lacked some other skills, that that and so they never made it. And they’re still, you know, kind of doing the same seven minutes. And I don’t want to be that person. Now, that’s not to say I don’t respect that person, I completely respect the person who says, There’s only one thing I ever want to do. And I will wait tables all day all night, if that allows me to pursue it. I totally respect that person. I just don’t want to be that person.

Marc Gutman 40:43

Thanks for sharing that. And then so was it really that easy? When you made the jump to copywriting? Was it just like, Hey, I’m going to join the creative department and start writing copy. And away I go, it was it? Was it a little bumpy?

Ron Tite 40:56

It was it was bumpy. In that I, the writing part, like, you know, my creative director at the time was a guy named Tony Miller. And I still say Tony kind of taught me how to write for advertising. And so the writing part was, was okay. The conceptual development was fine. Obviously, it got better with partners and you know, experience and stuff. But it was about but it was more, the more difficult part was leaving the role, the other aspects of my account roll behind. And so like, you’d walk into a meeting, and I and I, what I should have been doing was like, constantly just taking up ideas like in the meeting, like what do I have an idea for that?

Do I have an idea for that, and just keep going and writing lines and everything in the moment, what I was doing initially was like, Oh, I’m getting all the details of the meeting down, because that’s what account people did, right. And I had a lot of difficulty shutting my brain off from doing those things that I had done. But what really, really helped was that I knew how to, I could own a room, from my stand up experience. And from my experiences in account person, I can immediately make the client feel at ease. I wasn’t coming in as some cool, edgy comedian, who they had to buy into those, you know, I was always a good client-facing creative. And so those skills aren’t taught enough to young creatives, and they help you go a long way, they help you sell your thinking.

Marc Gutman 42:27

Yeah. And so what don’t we know about the advertising business? Like what’s what’s hard about it? Or what’s, you know, for those of us on the outside, like, you know, just like, what, what don’t we know?

Ron Tite 42:38

Well, it surely is being redefined and redeveloped from a bunch of different angles, from, you know, basic core marketing, what, what, what’s working in the minds of consumers and what isn’t working, the integration of data is changing the game, the integration of development and technology, obviously, and how it’s applied to consumer behavior is changing things. The players are all changing. I mean, now that, you know, the fourth, I think, largest agency in the world is Accenture. So you know, the Deloitte and Accentures and E wise, and PwC, are all playing in their big holding companies being redefined. Small boutiques are chasing really Nishi areas. So all of that stuff, the business of how an ad gets made, is completely changing. And the dollars around who gets paid to do what is completely changing. So that’s all to me really exciting, because we have a chance to redefine it. And then, you know, when you look at man, during a pandemic, like how does that change? It’s fundamentally changing everything because people’s viewing habits are changing. And their, their consumption of advertising is changing. So there’s just a lot of potential to make it what it could be. And it’s not there yet.

The promise as a guy who used to write a whole bunch of TV commercials, and the promise of digital marketing was about targeting that finally people could you know, see the ad what for what they want, when they want it and how they want to deliver it and all of that stuff. That was the promise. Where are we it’s a shit show the whole thing. If people have taken digital and made it about scale, not about targeting, and customization. So now we’re just pitched slapped from every possible angle. I can’t go into LinkedIn without eight LinkedIn messages pitching me people service asked me to book a time on my calendar for the next day. I get emails pitch laughing as consumers get, they go to a website, they look at a pair of shoes and the pair of shoes follows them around for the next month. I mean, it’s just constant pitch lapping from every angle, and we just have to be better than this.

We just have to be better. And while data is important, and infrastructure is important and efficiencies are important. We can’t lose the soul of this. And that’s my biggest complaint is that there are a lot of players within the advertising marketing ecosystem, who have no soul. And those people need to go away.

Marc Gutman 45:17

And so how do we change this behavior? Because I agree, like, you know, my, my LinkedIn is overrun with, you know, people that don’t even like, don’t even know who I am, or research who I am. And so they’re, they’re, they’re pitching me stuff that’s not even relevant, you know, to talk about, like, not targeting or not being clear. You know, I click on one, one ad for soap, and I’m getting that for the rest of my life. And, you know, I couldn’t agree more like I’m, like, fatigued with, with what’s hitting me. And there was this promise that I was going to get the ads that I explicitly wanted and deserved, and, and none of that’s happening. And so, and I think that we’ve become beholden to this idea of metrics and impressions and getting it out there and eyeballs. And so like, how do we start to change the script on this thing? And how do we start to redefine what digital is as we move forward? Because I agree, it’s completely broken?

Ron Tite 46:18

Yeah, I think there’s, you know, back to our car example, I think there’s a, if you look at the car business, there’s two parts that manufacturing process, and that one is the assembly line. And on the assembly line, everybody knows specifically what their job is you they’ve worked at all the inefficiencies, you know, you had you do this spot well, you hand it off to the next person, they do their thing. And when you do that, and it’s repeatable behavior, well, then you end up with the same product with the same margin, the same cost and everything at the end of the day. So you guarantee quality, you guarantee a margin. And that’s a good thing. And that’s where you should make your money is on the assembly line.

So there is an aspect of advertising that needs to be assembly-line driven. If you know specifically that this offer with this photo with this headline is what’s driving, you know, an acceptable amount of performance, then you need to put that on the assembly line and make it as efficient as possible. But the problem with that is saying, oh, we’ll make so much more money on the print than we do on the original, which is true. But if you don’t have an amazing original, the prints gonna suck. And so you need to have original thinking.

So if that’s the assembly line, you need the concept car, you need people who are working on things that have never been done before, that have no benchmarks for performance. Because if all you do is assembly line behave, you’re going to lift your head up one day and realize you’re out of business, we need to constantly be pushing new things, new thinking, new approaches, and see what that does and see what we can learn. And in the concept car example, it’s like, oh, you know, the car is never gonna go into production. But this gas cap works really well, I’m going to move that in onto the assembly line. So I innovate in a really responsible way. So you can do that. And that’s, I think, a responsible way to do it, you need to make an amazing original before you start making the print. And I think brands have forgot that, that they’re only doing the assembly line work. And they’re trying to cheat the system.

By going, you know, we found out that a headline with the word click in it performs 76% better, so we’re just going to have a bunch of headlines with click in it, and you’ve completely lost your soul. And by the way, you’re using the same benchmarks that everybody else is using. And so it’s a law of diminishing returns, you’re never gonna, you know, outperform the first person that thought of it.

You’re just now just a carbon copy of everybody. That’s the same carbon copy of everybody else’s. So it is that balance between concept car and assembly line.

Marc Gutman 48:59

I love the car analogy. It’s great. It’s something that I think everyone can really understand and puts it into perspective. So with the sort of the negative out of the way, what do you love about advertising?

Ron Tite 49:09

I love that, that this is a business that’s been around for a long time. And we’re talking about completely redefining it in not so subtle ways in from every possible angle. Absolutely love it. I also love that there’s a lot of stuff out there and people just that again, they don’t care. They don’t care who pays for it where it comes from good shit’s good shit. And if it’s a six-minute video or a 25-minute video or a three-hour movie, they don’t care whether Lego paid for that, or what you know, whether ESPN paid for it, or who good stuff is good stuff. Now when it’s not good stuff, and it sucks. Then we look to justify why and often we go like oh it was too pitchy was, it was because of was a brand that did it.

No, because there’s a lot of television programs that don’t have brands behind that suck too. So I just think it’s amazing that we can, that we can put things in front of people that inspire and inform them to do things.

Marc Gutman 50:17

So what are you most looking for forward to next?

Ron Tite 50:20

Um, a vaccine, would be nice.

Marc Gutman 50:25

We’re all looking forward to it.

Ron Tite 50:27

Yeah, I’m in lockdown in a home with a baby that was born two days into the pandemic and a two and a half year old. So when you’ve done that vaccine, If you could send that over, that’d be great. Thanks so much.

But I really, you know, we’ve got some amazing clients and I, the job I’m most excited about is the one I’m working on tomorrow. And, you know, like, whatever the one I’m working on tomorrow, like, we’re just, we’re like, right now we’re working on stuff for scouts, for example. I mean, and that, that has so many interesting angles to it. How do you talk to kids about getting outside again? How do you know, help an organization who has been putting kids forward and developing kids for so many years? How do you help kids reconnect with the great outdoors? How do you help parents who are concerned with their you know, what their kids are learning and socializing? Like all that stuff? I’m really excited about that. But tomorrow, there’ll be a different client with a different ask, and I’ll be excited about that. That’s a lame answer is that’s a lame answer.

Marc Gutman 51:28

We can always give you a chance to restate it. But I liked it. I thought it was. So Ron, like if you could run into that 20-year-old self of yours, that young, that young guy just kind of out there, in his first job in the advertising biz, and he ran into you today? What do you think he’d say?

Ron Tite 51:48

He’d say, you know, I, my, my friend shared a photo of us at I think at 23 years old. The other day, there were three of us in the photo, and she texted it out. And I said, we’re so young, we had our whole future ahead of us. And I wish I knew then how amazing it would be. And so I think my in both, like professionally, I’d never saw being this fulfilled. But also like, I you know, I was, I didn’t get married till I was, you know, 40, 43, 42 and so I became a dad like, I’m 50 and I just, you know, my wife and I just had a baby. I didn’t expect that to happen. even like as late as 40, Im like this isn’t gonna happen. So I don’t know.

I guess the advice that 20 year old like, just keep at it and don’t follow the script, right? Because I’ve I haven’t followed the script on how to get into comedy how to get into advertising or how to be a dad, this isn’t the script I’d recommend but write your own script. It’s all good. It’s all gonna be alright.

Marc Gutman 52:57

And that is Ron tight. I love the idea of approaching life as an unscripted script. Keep moving, keep reinventing, keep evolving. And a big thank you to Ron and his team for waging the war against pitch slapping. I think the whole world is pulling for you. I know I am. Thank you again to Ron Tite and Church and State for stopping by. And before I go, if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com because our best guests like Ron, come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. well, That’s the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you’ll never miss an episode. I love big backstories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can’t deny.

BGBS 041: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer

BGBS 041: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer

Jay Ferracane is a former skateboard punk, current gentleman rancher, and most importantly, a gifted graphic designer. Jay launched the design consultancy, Angry Bovine, with an honor for placing brand authenticity at the forefront of design and decision making. As you may be able to tell so far, Jay is a multi-talented man. He taught design for over 8 years at the University of Colorado’s grad program formerly known as BDW and founded the creative speaking series, “Caffeinated Mornings”, which ran for almost 7 years.  Here you’ll hear Jay’s beginnings with design, from watching his mother paint in fascination for hours to piecing together DIY coordinated BMX outfits with the neighborhood kids. Jay emphasizes how diving into a variety of industries and always being aware of the processes around him have influenced his style and creativity. He opens our eyes to the beauty of designing based on what is unique to you rather than what the norm “allows”, inspiring us to ask ourselves, how can we all be more fearlessly authentic?

In this episode, you'll learn...

• Growing up as a military kid living in Hawaii and Japan, Jay learned that the world was much bigger than he thought
• Jay discovered the name for Angry Bovine while watching the Mad Cow disease in a breakroom of a small ad shop
• Design is rarely about the person who designed it, whereas art is mostly about the person who made that art
• As a teenager, Jay would cut out every table of contents of Transworld Skateboard Magazine and wallpaper his room with them. This experience was one of his earliest design influences
• During art school, Jay kept adding typography to his paintings, which led him to stray from traditional art towards design
• Jay was fortunate enough to start his career designing annual reports for Yahoo and Motorola by applying to a job that no one else would
• Design is simply making communication in a creative form
• A company that makes manufacturing software is no less sexy than Nike because of their value and the connection they have with a group of people
• Jay currently lives on a ranch with his family for his wife’s nonprofit to save horses (and they even have cows now. Full circle, right?)
• Although design is meant to be objective, at some point creatively your work can become subjective because of the attachment to your ideas
• When designing for a brand, it is important to ask what is unique to you rather than following the mold of what is “compulsory” in the industry
• Jay thinks that the coolest thing about being a designer is seeing the lasting impact in what you do

Resources

 Angry Bovine Website Jay Ferracane LinkedIn Jay Ferracane Facebook Jay Ferracane Instagram

Quotes

[43:31] I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. [1:03:27] I am proud of the fact that I get to work in lots and lots of industries, because again, back to that point of objectivity, and every brand is its own thing, even if it's in the same industry it’s really important to kind of start to look at and go, “How are we going to solve this problem? What's unique to you guys? And let's just take it from that standpoint.” Right? Versus “Here's what everybody is doing in this industry, can you make us just like them?” [1:06:32] Brands should be about how you run your company. Logos are the signals that bring people to the company.

Podcast Transcript

Jay Ferracane 0:02

We were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is design, in most cases, and you can never say never, the design in most cases is rarely about the person who designed it. Art. Most of the time is about the person who made that art.

Marc Gutman 0:48

Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking to Jay Ferracane from angry bovine. Jay is a designer and creative and as you'll hear in today's episode, he has some very strong ideas about design, its purpose and place in business, and perhaps some advice to up-and-coming designers. And if you want to know how I feel about Jay's work well, when it was time to do the visual identity for the Wildstory rebrand. I called up Jay and begged him to do our identity. That's all you really need to know. And since then, we've worked together on several projects, and I consider him a good friend. his bio tells us that he's a graphic designer and creative director with over 25 years of experience. In his work and his approach been recognized with many awards and accolades and most recently, his mobile design studio was featured in designboom, outside magazine and the book, the new nomads, in addition to teaching design for over eight years at sea use grad program that is Colorado University, formerly known as BDW. He also founded the creative speaking series, caffeinated mornings, which ran for almost seven years. If you ask him what he does for a living, he says, I draw pictures and share. But deep within those pictures, letter forms, compositions and stories, his reasoning based and critical thinking in business needs, turning ideas into defendable, objective designs and belief systems that people can rely on. Sounds pretty cool. Our conversation waters from Jays upbringing as a military kid, his youth as a skateboard punk, current day gentlemen, rancher and the difference between art and design and the current trends in design today. I had an awesome time, and I think you will, too. And this is his story. I am so excited for today's podcast because I am here with the one and only Jay Ferracane both my friend and colleague, we I someone I like tremendously yet we also do work together, which isn't always a good combination. But in our case, it is. Jay, welcome to the show.

Jay Ferracane 3:35

Well, thank you for having me, Marc. And you once told me, you love me more than pancakes. And I don't know what that means. But I believe it is the highest praise I've ever gotten from anybody. So thank you for loving me more than pancakes.

Marc Gutman 3:50

In my world that is very, very high praise. So you are welcome. And thanks for coming on the show. I'm so excited to talk about all things design and just creative space in general. But before we get into that, why don't you just give us a quick sense of who you are. Go ahead and just introduce yourself, what you're up to these days and what your business is.

Jay Ferracane 4:13

Yep, I'm Jay Ferracane. I formally trained graphic designer. My my background is a little bit of an interesting one, I think and is I started out in the rough and tumble world of annual report design coming right out of design school I worked in I was really fortunate to work in an area of California in Palo Alto back in the 90s. When that creative scene there was just fantastic and open and actually reminds me a lot of what we see here in the Front Range today. cut my teeth in print, then went to work for probably if not the first one of the first five maybe digital agencies only in the Bay Area studio called baby grand and we were building websites for companies and my background in AI Reports I started taking that those experiences and putting them on those little CDs that started coming with annual reports. I don't know if you've ever had the displeasure of checking one of those out. And then fast forward, I became a creative director at a few software companies in the Bay Area, which gave me a really interesting lens on what the client is really looking for from design, and how we can help them do their jobs better. That was a big turning point for me and my thinking around design. And then I returned to the agency world for a little bit. We went into a big recession, I made a move, I started my firm, which is Angry Bovine, which I refer to as a design guide, I guess, Co-Op, where I partner with lots of great people like you yourself, what developers, filmmakers, all that kind of stuff, to help my clients tell their stories and build the best communication we can for them. And I've been doing that for the past 12 years now.

Marc Gutman 5:57

So where did the name Angry Bovine come from?

Jay Ferracane 6:02

Um, I don't want you to be disappointed, but it's not going to be nearly as cool as you think angry bovine started out, I was working at a small ad shop in the Bay Area. And this was one of the first.com boom arrows. And this agency I was working at, worked on a really diverse client base. And it was also the first place I worked at where we didn't have secretaries. We had office administrators, and we were working on a used car account, and that used car count. We weren't allowed to call it a use car. So we had to have the previously owned automobiles. And I don't know, I was angsty and whatever a younger designer at that time, and I had been building portfolios around my name. And that wasn't really a cool thing yet. And so again, my me being a designer, my striving for objectivity all the time is I felt like whenever I build a portfolio around my name, the work that was in it became more about me. So in one of my angsty periods at complaining about what I was working on, probably at the agency, I was in the break room, and mad cow was breaking out of the UK. And I, I said to somebody, can you imagine here with all the political sensitivity around words and things like that, that in the very near future, we might not be able to say Mad Cow at a cocktail party without offending somebody? And I said, Yeah, you would probably have to say something like, have you heard about that Angry Bovine disease, it's terrible. And then a light bulb went off in my head, because it was just enough of a non sequitur, paired with a recent, at that time, a recent special I had seen on prison prisons, where they were putting inmates in pink rooms, to calm them down. And I just thought the contrast between magenta as a corporate color pink, and, and this name, Angry Bovine would be the perfect non sequitur to provide basically a plate to put all of my work on. Because it didn't really mean anything. Now, it is funny, because once I tell that story, you're like, Oh, you just made the name up. And that's what most naming is. But in the punk rock skateboard kid in me does have a twinge of pride when I go into a physical meeting. And somebody says, A Jay from angry brain is here. It's just a funny thing for people to recite. And remember, so it as non sequitur, as it would, as it was, it has kind of paid off in at least memory for a lot of people. So that's how the name came about. And I know you were wishing you asked that question. No,

Marc Gutman 8:33

No, I'm thrilled that I asked that question. And, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all, that you're walking around as a younger designer with a bunch of angst about mad cow disease and how it was being portrayed. So you know, that that makes me wonder. I mean, did you grow up wanting to be a designer was that always you know, on your radar, like what was like eight-year-old j, like,

Jay Ferracane 8:54

Oh, eight-year-old Jay was kind of a, I wouldn't I don't want to say nightmare. But I definitely want to say like, I was a super, this is gonna shock you add completely, like diagnosed? Yeah, I was one of the kids. I had to take Ritalin for a long time. But my mom did art. And math was really hard for me the concentration on that, but my mom did art and her uncle or her brother, my uncle, built models and the combination I think of those two things, people with a DD have these periods of hyper focus as much as we are completely distracted. So if there was something that wasn't genuinely interested in an eight-year-old Jay sitting in an English class, would hear somebody break a pencil and I would get up and run over to give them a new pencil, not caring that there was maybe a test going on or something like that. But I could also come home and watch my mom paint for three hours and be totally interested in that or work on a model. And, you know, comparing it to reference pages of my thought my dad was a marine aviator and so In my life growing up I my reference materials, if you will, things that were around my house and stuff were a lot of books on war, a lot of book books on aircraft. And it fascinated me the insignias and paint schemes. So I think somewhere in there, the DNA for me to become a designer was being set up really early, I never had the hand to be a really fine artist. So I think painting early on for me, it was also messy, and not fast enough. And there was something as I progressed, even I went to art school to be a painter, because that's kind of I was always the guy in my, my cliques and crews growing up, that was the guy that was doing air quotes, art, because it was just how I was expressing myself that way. But I didn't know there was trades. Were kind of stuff. I Well, you know, skateboarding for one, you know, your board would become a canvas, the first thing I do, you know, especially once it got scraped up is, you'd re-spray paint it, or you start writing on your grip tape, and you put band names on there. And then all of a sudden, you cross into the music, you start listening to particularly the music I was into, you know, starting out around the time, I was like, you know, 13 or so I had Well, growing up in a military family is a little bit of an interesting thing, because you are somewhat transient, so you don't have lots of stuff. But the stuff you have you sit with it in such great detail that you really absorb all of it. And so we moved to this one location. And it was it's a kind of a fascinating thing to think about military neighborhoods, because you you may reconnect with somebody that you live near three years ago, but then all of a sudden, new influences would come. So I was living in Hawaii at the time. And kids from Washington DC started showing up. And this is like 80s. Like, punk rock is big time in. In Washington, DC bands like minor threat and youth brigade. And these kinds of bands are making music and we don't have access to it. So we're looking at our friends who are bringing these new vinyls and things like that. So you'd go home and make a T shirt or something like that. So I think my creativity started in all of that kind of exposure, if you will, my mom kind of made it accessible because she was doing art in our house all the time. So I'm like, Oh, that's just what you do. Her brother, like I said, who frequently visited us was always kind of, he would like help me draw, you know, cooler airplanes. And then he would talk we would talk about model building. And then like I said, that kind of stretched its way into my skateboarding life. You know, I had these tools, I had paints, I had mark-making tools, if you will, and I just started to ride on my shoes, and you'd ride on your jeans. And like I said, you'd make your own t-shirts. And it was a very DIY kind of life for me, because like, I even remember, we got into BMX for a little bit, and we'd look at magazines, and you know, you'd have these guys in these, like cool, you know, coordinated outfits and stuff. And me and the neighbor, kid, I remember us trying to sew our own. Like, you remember the movie rad. Like we tried to make our own BMX outfits, and sewing and iron on and that kind of stuff. And we were just making our world and you know, the coolest thing was is we weren't asking anybody's permission, can we go buy this thing we just kind of like, didn't know any better. So we go do it.

Marc Gutman 13:13

And so we're kind of artists was your mother,

Jay Ferracane 13:15

My mom painted a lot in oil. And I remember her trying her to him this to do portraiture and stuff like that. She was always trying to paint pictures of me and my sister. Gosh, I know she has this there's an unfinished painting somewhere in my attic that is of me and my sister that are literally that they're probably I don't wanna say the canvas, it was Canvas boards. And that, you know, they're probably half an inch thick, because he just kept trying to like, fix stuff and navia in just telling you that I think that probably is another trait that I've learned and it's been one of my successes in InDesign is is that adequately talented probably is how I would describe myself but I'll generally Outlast most people through the most enduring times and events. And I'll just keep trying. And my mom was a lot like that, too.

Marc Gutman 14:00

So and So where do you say that you're actually from you mentioned you moved around a lot. I mean, is there a place where you actually feel like you were from? Are you a bit of a nomad?

Jay Ferracane 14:10

I think I'm a bit of a nomad. But I would say a lot of my respect, and well a lot of my respect and ethics around how people should behave and stuff was kind of really formed in in Hawaii growing up in Hawaii because I was a minority there. And and it's in its in its tribal in the sense of you go to surf at a spot, you've got to show respect to locals and get in skateboarding was the same way you go to a local skate spot. And you can't just be this loud mouth jerk that shows up and pushes everybody out of the way. You've got to, you know, you've got to be somewhat complimentary and respectful. And I think that that's one thing that you know, I really took with me and after living in Hawaii, I moved I moved at 16 years old, I moved from Hawaii to Japan. All places. And that was a really interesting experience because in some way, you're in a foreign land, right? Like, literally you can go off base on bases like, it's like living, you know, where you live today, you've got your supermarket, you've got a convenience store, you can go get sodas, there's usually like, you know, hamburgers and whatever. But going off base, literally, we jumped the fence, and you'd have your skateboard and some money in your pocket to ride the bus wherever. And it was kind of the coolest license as a kid. So I would say I was probably my most formative years were spent in Hawaii. But I think moving to Asia made me really realize that like, oh, the world's a lot bigger than just where we live. And then I came back to California at a fairly young age to start going to school and stuff like that. And really just started to learn how to like, take care of myself, too. So I think all three of those areas in combination have made me who, who I am today, a lot of people like look at me, meet me and they're like, dude, you're California through and through. But I really think a lot of my background comes from what I learned about in Hawaii and

Marc Gutman 16:06

So you're like a Hawaii Asia Cali kind of?

Jay Ferracane 16:10

Yeah, definitely Pacific. Maybe that's how I describe myself.

Marc Gutman 16:15

At that time when you're when you're growing up, but you know, you're you mentioned that you're, you know, expressing yourself through skate culture, and rad with the greatest bike race Park feature of all time, the series that you a ride through them off the diving board spoon, but we'll leave that for another podcast, the AI? Are you getting in any formal art training? Are you taking art classes in school? Like, what do you have any role models to say, Hey, I can make a career out of this?

Jay Ferracane 16:46

Oh, yeah, well, role models, probably less so. But man, there was a lot of signals pointing at my path. And I recently had this discussion with the guy who runs an agency out in New York. And we were kind of both talking about being a DD and growing up and the things we were interested in. And the add on that probably the thing that I've learned that add the way the Add mind is, is that we have, we are able to process stuff a lot faster than most people. The problem is, is it gets kind of archived, it comes in and gets archived in like what they call midterm storage. So it's kind of hard to access. So that's why a lot of people add aren't graded like things like math, they can do it just takes a little bit more work. But back to your question, the things that were I was absorbing so much digesting every single skateboarding magazine, I could get my hands on every single surfing magazine. I was in terms of influences. When I went to I think my parents maybe even realized that like, hey, at least he can draw, what are what are trades that he could do. And so when I lived in Hawaii, there was a fantastic drafting program in our school, which I think points to some of the technical work that I do today. And I remember the the guy who was tough that ran the drafting program, and literally the idea was, you could leave school there and maybe go to a junior college for a year or two and just be a draftsperson. Right? Like, that was a big industry. While he was going through a building boom, they needed people to draw plans. So this guy just basically it was like almost like a trade school. And so I think my first experience with like, art as a trade was probably be my path to becoming a draftsman. Now I quickly realized I didn't necessarily have the attention to detail that was required for that job. And so then I probably moved on to art. But before I ever knew about design, at this time living in Hawaii, I would get Transworld skateboarding. And every Transworld skateboarding magazine, I got the first thing I did was like, cut out the table of contents. And I actually had to talk about this at a Colorado ad day or something like that, they said was in the early influences in your design career. And I, I kind of thought back to this moment of like, whatever it was that grabbed my attention on these table of contents. And I found out later, there's no internet this time, right? I can't Google, who designs table of contents for trade. Transworld. Again, back to my ATD brain, I probably could have looked in there and read, oh, creative director, David Carson, because it's probably in the masthead or you know, the publishing information in the front cover. But anyway, I cut these all these out. And I realized that they were the super expressive forms of information design when you really think about it. And it was funny because I had the opportunity to meet David Carson, and I told him about this experience being, you know, time I was like 13 to 16 years old. I cut out literally almost every table of contents out of tree at Transworld and was progressively wallpapering my room with them. And I told him that at a book signing once and literally, he pulled a beer out from under the table and we shot the shit for about five minutes until his handler had to like drag me off. But we started talking about surfing and all sorts of stuff because he served. But I think my earliest influences was drafting and then those experiences with Transworld skateboarding magazine. Now the problem is, is like, and I think this is the coolest thing that designers today is if they get excited or inspired by someone, they have this ability to find out who that is, and they in through social media, there's a good chance they can talk to those people. You know, if I ever found out who David Carson was, at that time, you know, the act of getting in touch with him would have been vastly different. So I was inspired by his work for sure. I just didn't know what category it came from, or where it was headed. And then, you know, here I am, 25 years later. And I'm, like, still talking about it, because it literally made a huge impact on me. And, you know,

Marc Gutman 20:45

I was gonna ask you a little bit more about where you went next, and kind of your first job, but you keep using this term design design designers like what is design? Like? Like, like, how do you define that? And what is a designer?

Jay Ferracane 20:58

Hmm? Well, maybe this will help me do a definition for you. When I went to art school, I had this kind of, I'm gonna call it a three step, making air gestures here that you can't see. But I had this three steps experience in school, I went to art school. And then at some point in art school, I've always been a guy that just likes to go to work. And at some point in art school, I said, When do I get to go to work? Meaning like, when do I stop coming to classes? When do I stop dicking around, when do I start to do some real stuff. And then, after enough conversations, they realize like most art students just go back to school, like, you get to maybe get a grant and you become a graduate student, or you apply for a doctorate, and you do some sort of thesis in art. And that wasn't for me, like I really didn't like school. And the irony is I teach today, and I think that's probably some sort of cosmic punishment for the way that I acted in school. And that's, that is another podcast. Um, but then I went, somebody said, Hey, I kept putting messages in my painting, like, I paint words and stuff in there. And my art teachers kind of get on my case, because they were like, Hey, you need to let your viewers you know, paint the light, fill out the story. And I'm like, but I, this is the message I want to I want to tell. And so then they're like, have you ever taken any typography courses? And I'm like, I don't I only think I can even spell that. But what is that? And so then I went and did a typography course. And then somebody had told me, hey, by the way, if you kind of like, don't want to do fine art, have you ever thought about illustration, we had a really good illustration program at the at San Jose State. So I'm in illustration, I'm doing a little bit of typographic a little bit of illustration. And then it dawns on me, I'm like, okay, here I am. In this situation, again, I want to go to work every day. I'm like, who tells an illustrator to make work? And they're like, Oh, that's usually a creative director, art director, designer guy. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Where's that department. And so then I went to design in the design department, and the design department is sales, a state at that time was really impacted, it was one of the, you know, they would take like a student of, I'm gonna say, at least a couple hundred students, maybe 150 200 students, and then from that, one class would be admitted every year. And that was somewhere between 30 and 45 students, and it was all done through a portfolio review, compulsory portfolio review, basically, everybody was putting up the same amount of work, it was really kind of like a hard deal to get into. And then once you got in there, it was this very international, Swiss kind of design style, international style of design being taught. So now coming to the definition of design, is really it was about making communication, that could that it was really about making communication. That was that's what it really what it simply came down to, and there was an art aspect to it. But there was also some creativity in the side of making it not being cliched creating engagement, working to the grid. You know, we were only using like, you know, three fonts at that time. really early computer days, by the way, when I'm doing all this stuff. So Gosh, in in the way that I would define design is, you know, for me, it's it's a objective visual communication.

Marc Gutman 24:12

And how is that different than art? Like how does that differ from art?

Jay Ferracane 24:16

Well, it actually at this school, there was kind of, I wouldn't say there was like a rivalry. It's not like cats. And you know, we're like snapping at each other down the hallway, you know, we're gonna fight or anything. But there was this division between the art students and the design students. And we were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or a simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is Is design in most cases, and I can, you can never say never. The design in most cases is rarely about the person who designs it art most of the time is about the person who made that art.

Marc Gutman 25:11

Well, that's a good definition that I can understand and easily differentiate between the two. And so you discover this, shall I say, utilitarian way of using design to make a career to communicate the things you want to. Now that all sounds really cool and hip, and you and you're kind of coming out of the skate kind of culture? Like, how do you get into annual report design,

Jay Ferracane 25:38

The entire report job was really funny. And it was, um, so the era of when you got a job. And when I was in college, you'd go down to the lower floor and outside the counselor's office, there'd be a board full of, you know, eight and a half by 11 sheets with the tabs off the bottom, and you have a job description in there, and you'd pull the tab off and you'd go find a payphone. And you'd call a place and say, Hey, I'd like to apply or do an interview, or you drive over there and drop off a little sample portfolio. So anyway, I go downstairs, and this wall of all these job postings, there is one that is completely untouched. And so I pulled the entire thing off the wall, and take the entire thing with me and go and call this number. So thinking like, oh, no one else is going to call this. What I didn't know is the word on the street. Within the design parliament, everybody knew how hostile this agency was this really small boutique agency in Palo Alto was, and that's why nobody was applying for internships there. And so my dumb ass goes and grabs, it makes a call. They're like, Yeah, come in next Wednesday, blah, blah, blah, I show them my portfolio, which at this time is primarily illustration, and fine art stuff. But the sheer fact that I had been painting words and stuff in there kind of got me into a little bit of a design category. And it had some type of graphic work in there. And so I go start there. And literally the second day at the studio working for this really small, like, she was maybe five foot tall, it was into couture clothing, she was just a presence. And she was not nice at all, at but I learned how to keep growing up in the military, you just learned how to keep your head down. And you just go and if people are terse with you, you just kind of move on. And it's no big deal. I was pretty used to it. So I go there. And I'm like, gosh, this isn't, you know, that fun, but I'm learning quite a bit. Well, day two, I show up and the entire staff of the agency quits. And so I'm in design school getting ready to get out of design school, and at this time, everybody, there'd be this Exodus every year from the design school, and everyone would go out into the market. And you all have the same portfolio. And as a guy who just wanted to go to work. I'm like, Well, if I stick it out here, I'll have like a couple pieces that will be like my own, it will be real world work, which will make me stand out in the marketplace. So that year, I literally day one, I go and sit with three designers over the course of the day day. And they tell me someone was working on like the Yahoo annual report. So that's their IPO that tells you how long ago this was. We were doing a project for Motorola. And we were doing a project for food irradiation, brands. Now my career gets into a lot of industries like that, that I end up in most people meet me and they go, Oh, you're from California. And you work in the either the record or like motocross industry month, I work on a lot of enterprise software, or a lot of intangible product kind of things. So anyway, I immediately am given three projects that I have to take to print from my second day on the job because there's nobody else left to do it. So talk about your secret to success is when opportunity presents itself and you take advantage of it. And over the course of like the next month or so working at this place. I did take these in I got to finish out these reports. I got to put them in my portfolio. My illustration background helped. Because I was able to, particularly for the food irradiation brand that we were working on. I had to do these like really kind of like abstract vector drawings, that kind of communicated elements that they were doing with their science, their quote, science. And I don't know it was just that that's kind of how my career got started. Now mind you, this little studio sat in the middle of what was a really creative hotspot at that time. I was working next door to IDEO. So I would bump into people at you know the coffee line and shoot the breeze with them about what they were working on. It was really open kind of awesome community there. But that formative experience of my first job working at an annual reports taught me a lot about design because the debt the information density was off the charts. A lot of times you were if an if a company was publishing a report, they didn't have a great year you were actually really doing one of the most elegant apology letters you possibly could, um, or if they did do a great year, you were trying to show like, you know, you had some real opportunity to make them, you know, superstars and the people that were investing in them who got these books feel really validated. So it was kind of a cool tool that any reports also sitting and we're a part of brand that I'm really excited about that, like, they mean a lot to the people who are connected to that business, much more than like a consumer would be, or something like that. So anyway, I learned a lot there. And then, like I said, from there, I did gun work, I went right into a much more digital job after that, but it was very early on. So

Marc Gutman 30:36

You talked about it a little bit, but what was it like in the Bay Area at that time? Like what's going on? Like, what's the general scene? Oh, you know, how's it how's it changed?

Jay Ferracane 30:46

Yeah, so I would say, you know, I still have clients in the Bay Area. So I have a, at least a somewhat of a lens, you know, I live here in Colorado now. But, you know, prior to COVID times, I was, I was flying back and forth, and my wife's family's from there. So we visit quite a bit. But I would say the early 90s, through the 2000s was like a golden age of, particularly technology. And then that design that came off of that was it was just an amazing place to be in and around really liberal thinking, a lot of openness about ideas. And I think like any, you know, location or industry, for that matter. You know, in the years I've seen it, you know, things have gotten a little bit more conservative, and that might be the scale of business and, and, frankly, the wealth that some of these organizations have, but I think it really, you know, some of the, that period in the 90s 2000s, that's a couple.com booms in there. And there was just this optimism and hope around like, Hey, you have an idea, you can bring that to bear. And there's just so much like, work to be had, and so many things that we got to explain, really for the first time to people so that they could understand the value of these businesses. And that was a really fun thing to me, you know, where I have friends who went and worked at Nike and all that kind of stuff. And I look at the work they do. And it's beautiful. And it's, you know, it's it's something that like every man can connect to, but because of the clients that I just happened to start working in the industries that I started getting a lot of exposure to or experience in, I realized they were no less sexy than a Nike, you know, a company that makes manufacturing software, someone needs that thing, they have a value. And if you can convince somebody, and particularly in the enterprise space, the funny thing about that is, is a lot of times, there's a lot of choices, or at least a few choices for a decision-maker to make. And so my stance on whatever plans I got involved with was way before, you know, making b2b stuff feel like consumer, that was always my bet. I'm like, hey, if someone's going to come here and learn about this particular software that you know, most of the Fortune 500 runs on, but my mom and dad have never heard of, I'm going to try and explain it in a way that feels more like, I don't know, Bang and Olufsen or some other, you know, high-level consumer brand that has a technical background, but still makes a really rad product. I don't see any difference between the two and that was received really well, at that time. And it was such a fun part to be. It was such a, I don't know, it was very formative to be around that time. I think that optimism and connectedness that also this idea that anything is possible, really was like a resonant there at that time. And it was a cool part a cool thing to be a part of.

Marc Gutman 33:45

Yeah, I think it's so cool that that was like your training ground that that golden age of tack. And it's interesting, you know, we've had Marty neumeier, who is on on the podcast and considered kind of the godfather of brand, at least brand theory and in articulating a lot of stuff here. And he cut his teeth, designing software boxes, you know, that's his thing. Like it was same idea

Jay Ferracane 34:05

Podcast was great. By the way, I really enjoyed his talk and where he took that because Marty and I bet Well, obviously he's working at a galactically higher level than I was at that time. Um, but it was funny to hear him talking about things because I remember those spheres of influence cut rippling through the area. And that was another really cool thing that was happening in the Bay Area at that time is the connections between people I knew of Marty and there were some other great agencies, you know, sapient, at the time was doing some really awesome work. But we actually had a couple of really interesting opportunities to meet guys that went on to do things like salesforce.com and stuff like that, and just hear that because they were advisors at companies. I was working on their brands, and you hear just these little nuggets of things that like, Hey, why don't we try this like, I remember the I'm trying to think of his name that it was he was the marketingguy@salesforce.com, like in the very beginning. And I remember him walking through me through the value of long scroll homepages. And I was like, it was just a fascinating thing, because that wasn't a thing at that time. And when he walked me through the reasoning coming back to, hey, what's design should always have purpose or reason. And when he kind of communicated Well, it depends on the goals of your company. But if one of your goals your company, is is to basically, you know, increase time on your website and do this kind of thing, you give them more content, though, like that. That's, we weren't even thinking like that. And then when Marty started talking about like, thinking through software boxes, and things like that, I even had a really similar experience where I started talking to the people that were using the product. So again, I had some really interesting experiences, not only from people who were doing really great thinking and work, but then I learned to go and ask to put my ego aside and go ask people, how do you use this, you know, empathy, I don't even think was really being talked too much about InDesign at that time. But going and talking to people and like finding out how do you use the software? How does it get shipped? What's that do to the bottom line of a product costs? And we're, you know, Marty's job was to make software more appealing on the Fry's shelf. And I think most software companies after that followed that suit, even though they weren't selling software to consumers, so like, I worked on an enterprise level, install software, like we're guys, we were making PCs, we're installing software. And so you don't need this big $23 box or whatever it was, and you know, what, how cool would it be if you could just mail it a FedEx envelope? So we really thought through some of those problems. And I think because, again, some of the things that we were just starting to listen to and learn and then challenge, just again, kind of goes back to the world of DIY and making, you know, minor threat t-shirts for myself. For my own frickin BMX outfits. I don't see my job today, as much different as that I rarely will ask for permission to go do something I think my job a lot of times is to bring options like that to clients and really help them rethink, hey, this might be I know you want to do it this way. But I will always try and show them like, Hey, we should. What if we thought a little bit differently. And we did something like this. And then a lot of times that's the path we go down. But I wouldn't have learned that how to not been in areas like you know, the bay area that's on

Marc Gutman 37:29

This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so, you know one of the things that I think is really interesting about you is the non well some of the non-professional stuff, right well you're you're real you're real avid cyclist you you live in North boulder on what is effectively a ranch, right? So that goes really well with the Angry Bovine moniker in my work and you work out of a cool you know, retrofitted trailer out on that ranch and so walk me through a little bit like how did you get to Boulder like like, when it's cycling under the picture? Like Like, when did you become this like, cool design rancher dude?

Jay Ferracane 39:09

Well, I laughed in the beginning when you said, your non-professional stuff, because I don't, I think that the second you can start being more about the things that you really enjoy and love and how that affects your work. It does kind of turn you into a better professional, but in some ways, it's non-professional. I thought that's where you're gonna go with this. But I think that I've always been interested in I started racing bikes long before I got to Colorado, and I was doing that in college and I've again, hyperactive add I have energy to burn. And so, you know, I got my first mountain bike because my girlfriend at the time who's now my wife was into mountain biking and she's like, you should get a bike and, you know, three months later, I'm like, Well, I need to go race. I'm gonna go enter a contest and you know, see how I do and I did okay, I survived, but then I was addicted. Start Riding competitively. And the one thing that bugged me about cycling, which was kind of funny, was, you know, coming out of 90 skateboard 80s and 90s skateboard culture where you had these, like, you know, big pants, I don't know if you remember that that phase, you know, big pants and baggy shirts, and, and that kind of stuff. And then I go to start racing bikes, and you're in lycra, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't have my friends, you know, see me like this. And I think one of my goals down the road. And now that I designed cycling kits and stuff, I try and make them. It's still like, right, you can't make it that cool. But I try and make it feel more like either, you know, surfer skate apparel, in some way or another, the long story on the getting from the Bay Area to here. I think at a certain point, a lot of creative people just have to ask themselves, how they work best. And then you need to make the decision to live up to that decision. And so I was running an agency in Palo Alto, the economy's doing pretty good. I was actually run an agency, we had two offices, one in San Francisco, and one in Palo Alto. And it was weird because I came back in 10 or 15 years, what after that original working in Anna report shop in the town had changed quite a bit. We had Facebook there now. And it was, you know, Palo Alto wasn't this little sleepy town that supported Stanford anymore. It was kind of a hotbed for venture capitalism. And technology was really going off there. And so it was a great place to run an agency San Francisco, us too. So I returned to that town to run this agency after my stint on the client side. And I ran the agency for about two years, the economy, like I said, was doing really well. But I had two kids now. And I started to realize I was spending more time in my car, I drive seven miles to work. And it would take almost 45 minutes. And I just thought with parking and then walking to your office. And all of a sudden, something in me just wasn't connecting, my neighbors weren't of my same, you know, brain, we had a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity in the Bay Area. So who can fault them for it, we had a lot of people moving in, that become our neighbors, and they really weren't there for the long haul. They came to run a company and go back to wherever they were originally from. My wife had grown up there. So we had a lot of roots in the Bay Area. And we started to say to ourselves, like, hey, how can we spend more time with our kids and raise them in an area where they can still be kids? Because there's a lot of pressure on those on our we felt on kids at that time to be the next tech CEO, and why aren't your kids going to math camp and stuff. And my wife is a very creative individual as well. She does interior design, and she did real estate for years and a lot of staging and that kind of stuff. And now she runs a nonprofit, hence, the ranch story, saving Mustangs, the horse, not the car. And so we made a decision to move to Colorado, though. So we could see our kids more and personally with me, I knew I was doing a level of work where I'm like, I will find work, let's let's move, I really want to see these my kids, as long as they still think I'm cool. And we made the move out here. My agency was like, hey, go there and start a boutique for us. And that was the ultimate plan, I started looking for property and you know, building and that kind of stuff and was going to start hiring talent because they knew that this there was great creative talent out here. And the economy started to kind of shift, we started to go into a little bit of a recession. And because I'm kind of a player-manager in the way that I creative directed I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. And I would fly back to the Bay Area and fire a couple people and then come back and pick up their work and still present it to clients and ran jobs and but then it just got to be at a certain point. I'm like, This isn't good for my soul anymore. And you know, before we started the call you and I have been chatting about, you know, what comes out of COVID is their opportunity here. And I know some friends in the space that are that are doing some cool things and, and preparing for when it gets good again. But I think the opportunity that I saw was I had a lot of clients who were looking for service, but they couldn't afford agencies anymore. So I had this really interesting opportunity to start my own business and rebuilding where I got to interface directly with clients and then manifest our discussions into the designs I was doing. And so I literally got to start my business in almost the safest way I've ever possible. I moved to Colorado, did my agency thing with the company back in the Bay Area for a little bit and then slowly started up my other business as the other one wound down. even helped them do some jobs for a while. Didn't want to burn any bridges there. And some of the clients that I worked on at the agency are now my clients today 12 years later. So, you know, thinking I'm doing something right but at the end of the day, it's also you're building relationships. You know, I think the work not to be self-effacing but I think I do adequate work. But I'm also there, like I said, and I won't quit on people, and I try and be dependable. And you know, and that's how I got here was literally a decision on, I'm okay at what I do, I should be able to go do it anywhere, let's go so we could spend time with the kids. And then the ranch thing was a funny deal because as my wife's nonprofit started, we realized we couldn't have horses or burros in our backyard in a suburban setting in Boulder, Colorado. So we did move north of town, we found a rundown old little property. And the past five and a half years, we've been literally refinancing building bones, just making a better habitat for the animals we're trying to help. So and that's my family's work. Now, it really gave us like a sense of identity, I think in some way that, you know, my older son works with horses today, my younger son is just conflicts, anything that's mechanical and broken, and you know, my wife everyday goes out and, you know, works the land, and then I have to go build fences. So that's, that's fine. How we ended up here. And so it's very nice of you to say that that's a cool thing. Maybe the name was somewhat self-fulfilling at some point, because we did recently get cows too. So I was destined for it. At some point, I think there are no accidents or mistakes.

Marc Gutman 46:17

So you know, before we started recording, you and I were chatting and talking a little bit about this idea of objectivity, and in the creative space today. And what I'd like to do is like shift gears a little bit and change the conversation to that. And I think the prompt was like, Where has it gone? You know, where has subjectivity gone? and creativity today?

Jay Ferracane 46:41

Well, and what are the phenomenons that are, are making it harder and harder to find. And I think I saw a film recently that kind of turned on a few light bulbs. For me, I don't know if you've seen the social dilemma yet. But it is an interesting film to check out. But one of the things that's fascinating, if you kind of step away from it, I have, it was it's funny for me, I really do like to believe that design is best served when it's objective. Now, you get to know these slippery slopes, because mark, you present creative all the time. And there might be an idea that's really rooted in research and findings. And you present it to that client and you really believe in it. And then they go Yeah, we just don't like it. And that's the weird thing about our craft, right. For all the objectivity and information and support we have, we might be have behind an idea. At the end of the day, some part of creative particularly when you start putting form, or imagery, or words with it, you get into subjectivity, right? Because if somebody doesn't like that photograph, or if somebody doesn't like that layout, or somebody doesn't like that word, all of a sudden, things get upset. But objectivity, the thing that's kind of fascinating gets kind of called out in this film, and has made me think about it ever since. And even I've had a couple conversations before seeing the film. That's the one thing that a lot of hat while I pitch a lot of work. And I don't always win all the work. But one of the things I like to do is I go back, and I check when things launch. And I like to go and just see Wow, I wonder what came together to make that thing what it was. Because if you go look at something like a website, or even a brochure, or something like that, or campaign, those are organisms, right? It's not just a simple, clear idea that comes out and launches, there's a lot of influences and pressures and things that shape it to be the thing that it is. But it the objectivity is usually my go to tool because I can say, hey, this isn't about me, coming back to empathy. And this is design. objectivity is really about like, hey, let's let's help you, the person that's very close to it, usually the business owner, make some decisions based on being rational in research versus emotional kinds of stuff, which can sometimes be dangerous. And so I guess the things that have come up is like I see a lot of agencies go out and build work, where that idea seems a lot like the way that they serviced a previous client. So were they really being objective? Or were they really just trying to get work out the door? I think that the fascinating byproduct of the media will you digest and social stuff, and that kind of thing is, is, um, our objectivity might be being eroded and a little bit because if we all of a sudden don't hear things we agree with and say I present a creative idea to you that you might not like it. It's, it's usually more divisionary than it is conversation starting. And it's just an interesting phenomenon that I've seen lately, where I really have to do a lot of setup so that I can be Hey, I'm not presenting you this because I feel like this morning. I'm presenting this idea to you because objectivity is pointing us in the direction of these things filled with Goals you've told us to fulfill? And I don't know, are you seeing any of this in your work, you know, where you start to present ideas and it gets biased or something like that in some way or another? Because I know this is this objectivity thing goes far beyond the creative circle. But are you seeing any of it too? It's a fascinating topic to me.

Marc Gutman 50:20

Well, I do see it. But I think for me, like when I think about it, and I heard you talking, it's like, you know, before for someone to have a conversation around creative, they had to be in the creative space, or at the very least, you had to go talk to a creative professor, or you had to go to the library right now you can Google. You know, how do I critique a logo, what makes a great logo, what? What is great, create whatever you want, right? And what that does is that makes everybody feeling like that they have some sort of expertise in the in the conversation. Now, I do think it's really interesting that, like, I do think there's a misnomer. And I think this is like not not a current thing. I think this is like, maybe something that happened way back in the days of branding of designers, right? Where there was this idea that a designer would go off in a madman style way and, you know, bang their head against the wall and come up with an amazing idea. And then create as if they were a mad scientist, and a blur of paint and scrap paper, maybe, you know, Warhol or something like that comes to mind. And then or even a Jackson Pollock, but like, you would then take that, that output and tada, you have a, you know, a campaign or a logo or an identity and that it wasn't always rooted in this the sense of objectivity, at least from the client-side, right? That it right, that it was a you know, that's that might be the way that designers approach it. But from the client side, I think that's long been the viewpoint. And so maybe you're just experiencing it more, in today's kind of world where things are coming, maybe a little unfiltered, or in a different way. But I don't know, I feel like you know, the brand of a designer, at least publicly facing is, is, as I described, and less about solving real problems about being objective, and less about removing themselves from the process. Yep. where, you know, it's like, oh, who's this famous designer Who's this and we are living in this age of famous graphic designers, right. And that's also a weird thing that you and I have talked about where, you know, there really shouldn't be famous designers that it's not about the designers but here we are.

Jay Ferracane 52:44

When it is funny of John Violin Berg, I don't know if you know him, but fascinating individual, he runs up a thing called Project m, at a number of other things. He was doing an interview once, and he he was introduced as being a famous designer. And then he kind of shrugged it off and was like, well, being a famous designer is is a is like being a famous plumber, only other plumbers know you. And so, uh, but I do think famous designers are known outside of certain circles. And I think the danger in it is a no, no danger is probably a like too prescriptive is a little too serious. It's not dangerous, right. But it is an interesting phenomena, I really look at myself as I'm a capitalist. That's my design shtick. And what I've had to realize too, is a lot of designers need to have their things so that when people are out there in their selection process, looking for creative help, they find the one that works best with them, I happen to work in a really a capitalistic kind of way where I want to interface with clients, I believe they know so much more about their business, then I could ever and I want those nuggets and pieces of information that I want to go do my research and I want to interview their customers, and I want to really talk to them about how the design we're about to do whatever it may be, also helps them at the end of the day, like you know, if you've got to if we're going to do a brand and we end up doing a website in that brand, and you know, they only have to marketing people on the marketing staff. Do you want to go build a website that requires like a team from MIT to update it every day? Probably not. Like, like, stick them on WordPress and, you know, maybe think through before you ever design the brand is you know, you think through like, how easy will this thing be to update if that's a part of their business premise. So coming back to this idea of objectivity. I think one of the things that I get concerned about is is that if people go to an agency for a specific look, or the request and I've gotten this request before is like we'll just do for us what you did for x, right. I think that's a really hard place to be as a designer because Eyes, if we're being objective about their business and who they are as a brand, you need to kind of re-inventory all their parts and in some weird way, maybe you'll get the crazy math that works out and says, Yeah, I guess we could do exactly what we did for this other brand for you guys. But more often than not the little point oh, 1% shift that makes them a different business. Maybe it's just the fact that they're doing exactly what business a is doing on the west coast, they just happen to be in Cleveland, Ohio, that might be enough of a difference to change their whole brand persona. So anyway, I just think this idea of objectivity as a bigger concept, meaning like, Hey, how are we really looking at things through an honest, authentic kind of lens in some of my recent experiences, and again, I'm not an absolute type of person. But I've seen a lot of hints of like, hey, that's not as important as you may think it is. And that's just my kind of view on design these days.

Marc Gutman 56:03

So then, and thanks for that, Jan. And I appreciate that. And so like, in addition to that, like, what's hard about design, What don't we see? Like, what What don't we get to the person who's, who's not living at every day?

Jay Ferracane 56:17

Well, design is funny, because like, it's, um, I have met some guys that that can literally they go and they clock in, and then they're designing, I think, for me, what's hard about design is, it's never really done. And then in my mind, in some way, I'm, I don't want to say a member, just I'm dissatisfied. But I always think like, how could it be optimized? How and, you know, from an hourly standpoint, designers make a pretty good living doing, you know, doing what we're doing, I don't think it's as hard as like, as a guy who's, who's run a ton of fence and built sheds and done construction and his life. I don't go home with that kind of tired every day. But there's a cerebral kind of like, wearing that is it's consuming. I think that's one of the things that that's hard about design is is that a year you're at dinner with your wife, and she's like, You're not listening to me right now. And your brain is off trying to like write a headline or figure out why a layout isn't working. And then you have to like re-enter and you have to apologize, you know, you're driving down the road, and someone goes, did you see that Billboard and you're like, nope, but it was set and Gill Sans, like, it's just, it's, it's it, I think there's a periphery that designers exist in that we're, I feel like, at least as a designer, I'm always on, like, meaning like, I'm always trying to process whatever work I have in front of me, in some way or another. And so from an hourly standpoint, that's one thing that's hard about is it's just constant. And, and I've never even in cycling, or skateboarding, I was never a guide, it was good. Like, Hey, I'm going to stop for two weeks or a month, and then I'll just come back and hope I'm exactly the same. design has a hand It has a movement to it. And I recently just started doing a bunch of writing for a brand. And I luckily, I had to fill out some paperwork prior to doing that. And I realized how, like, I just wasn't great at typing, because I hadn't been like, writing prose for a little bit. And, and so like, I think that's one of the things that's hard about it. Um, I think that if you pair that with genuinely wanting to do good work, it puts a lot of anxiety on the designer. And I think that's one of those things. I remember when you know, I drop a proposal to a client job might not start for two weeks, I'd start worrying about will I have good ideas? And I still do that today, will I be able to solve those problems when it's time to start? And I now well, knowing enough what I know about myself as a designer, I just know that that is a thing. And I have to acknowledge it and you go, Hey, I know you're there little weird anxiety. And this is going to be how you feel until you really get your hands into it. In fact, to this writing example that I'm, I'm really working on right now like I did this thing where you kind of like, constantly check email, or go look at results of you know, sports results, and you do anything but work on the thing because you're fearful of like getting started and so I think my process as a designer to eliminate air quotes, some of the hard stuff is actually just fucking getting to work and start hammering it out. And even if some of the work is throw away that I had to paint a painting teacher A long time ago, just tell me, I would sit there in front of like a blank canvas or big sheet of paper or whatever. And so what he would do is he would he told me like pick up your brush or piece of charcoal and he would take my hand and just run it on the paper. He goes making the first marks the hardest thing and then he would just walk off. And I'm like, Oh, so sometimes just getting started is one of the things that makes design hard. I think genuinely coming back to that idea is like you want to do a good job. most creative people care for a couple of Reasons a, you want to do a good job because someone's paying you good money to help them communicate their thing. The you get into the I'm going to call it the Andre 5000. World, he wasn't an outcast reference, it's an outcast reference, you're only as funky as your last cut you and I'll tell you one thing that I've really learned it, or at least been re-exposed to it is just because I guess most creatives should never ever really get comfortable that they have to no longer prove themselves, because that's a really dangerous place to be. Because I think as creatives we're always proving ourselves, that's really our job, hey, we've given you this problem, show us how you're going to solve it. That's proof, right? And so that that second feature in there that you're only funky as your last cut, comes back to caring about the work you do. But you also want to do really great work, because you know that that work that you're doing at that moment ensures more work comes down the road, because this is such a referral kind of world to so yeah, it is funny to say it's hard because it isn't like ditch digging, but it is there's an anxiety that comes with it that requires a lot of management and it can you can kind of get in your head and but you know, if you have the sensibility to just acknowledge like, that's, this is the way it goes and press on. You'll get it done. And, you know, it's just, it's just a part of what you sign up for.

Marc Gutman 1:01:31

So what's next, for Jay Ferracane, an Angry Bovine?

Jay Ferracane 1:01:37

Well, you know, this year, I've been fortunate, I think about every year I kind of just, I've worked on lots of lots of industries, I get pulled back into certain industries, like, there's so much work in high tech and software to do. But I also really, you know, back to my other things I enjoy. I've worked in bike a lot. But every year I try and pick in an industry that would be kind of cool to work in. And this year, I was fortunate enough, I wanted to do something, maybe it's because of where I live, being on a ranch, etc. I wanted to work in some ag brands, and I actually got to do a little bit of work in ag, I'd love to do something, maybe more on the outdoor or hunt side of things. I just think those are fascinating industries that, you know, I love some of the stuff that's going on there. But I also love cross-pollinating. So, you know, my background and skateboarding and punk rock and the subversiveness and coming back to this idea of objectivity, a lot of stuff that I end up working on takes on some of those behaviors. And so it's just cool to see that to get exposure in those industries and learn how they work and stuff like that. So what's next, I would say, you know, I'm always looking to work in industries I've never had experience in because I don't, this comes back to the objectivity thing I did. I've done one car brand in my entire life. And I remember working with the client at the car brand. And there was so much a lot of her argument when we would present work was this didn't fit the mold of what was compulsory in the space. But yet our directive was, let's stand out, let's be different, you know, all of these things that were kind of contrary to what she was kind of coming back to like, it's not done this way. And so to me, as somebody who I am proud of the fact that I get to work in lots and lots of industries, because again, back to that point of objectivity, and every brand is its own thing, even if it's in the same industry is really important to kind of start to look at and go, how are we going to solve this problem? What's unique to you guys? And let's just take it from that standpoint, right? versus here's what everybody is doing in this industry? Can you make us just like them? So what's next is, you know, just continuing to do new stuff as

Marc Gutman 1:03:53

Well, as we come to a close here. J. It makes me you know, instead of kind of our normal closing question, I got a different one. Do you have a project or something you've worked on? Minus anything you've done with me that you would earmark or point out is your favorite something that you think of real finally of something that you're particularly proud of? What is it and what does it look like?

Jay Ferracane 1:04:17

Yeah, you know, I have a couple soft spots, you know, to come to mind. One because I love bikes. So we got to do some work for Cannondale, where they were really shifting big thinking in their brand. And I still see effects of that today. And I don't think that's the coolest thing as a designer is to see lasting impact in what you do. I think one brand that I'm really, really proud to have worked on was some of the very formative stuff for Strava. If you know the running and cycling platform, you know, did the original identity for them and I tell that to people sometimes and they go Wow, that's so cool and blah, blah. But you know, when I did that original identity that was literally like eight people in a room. office space on sandhill in California. It wasn't what we know it as today with TV commercials during the Tour de France. But the premise is that we set in place from a visual design perspective, color palette, strong logos. I remember I was racing Leadville. And out there in the middle of nowhere is the bright orange Strava van that, you know, we had done really loose concepts of, and this icon that we had built-in Now coming back to reason this icon was a, if you look at the logo type of Strava, it has all these up and down arrows. And if you know anything about Strava, it's about performance. And so one of the things that we wanted to build into this idea of Strava was is can you log into Strava every day and see how you're trending? Are you doing great today? Are you doing a little less than that? You know, you did yesterday, and I came around the corner and the back end of van was there. And that little icon was on the back of the van. And we designed these two superimposed arrows one pointing up, one pointing down, slightly off-center from one another. And I came around the corner and I hadn't worked on that brand and maybe four or five years. And there it was still there still present. So physical and communicating from very early on. And that's the thing I get the most excited about, with the brands I get to build is and you as a brand strategist, you know this too, that like I think a lot of times the misconception of brands, or brand being particular is, hey, when you write a brand, it tells us how to use our logo. Nope. Brands should be about how you run your company. logos are the signals that bring people to the company. And their branding is the signals that bring people to your company. But I'm I'm always really pleased when I get to talk to decision-makers at a brand I've worked on. And you know, they use the brand to make business decisions. They use it to still manage like their branding, you know, what are we using the right color palette? We're using the right fonts, etc. But more importantly, are they using the brand as like a decision-making tool Hey, if we said we're the most trustworthy company or the most human company, and then they all of a sudden, you know, note to save a buck, they automate their entire, you know, customer service platform or something like that. That might not be the best decision for that brand. So I think that's my, my sweetest thing that comes out of what I do on a daily basis is, you know, the impact it has on the business. The longevity, you know, seeing it out there in space is really rewarding for me and Strava is probably one of the best examples of that.

Marc Gutman 1:07:39

And that is Jay Ferracane. Brand is how you should run your company. His words, not mine, but I couldn't agree more. We'll be sure to link to all of Jays socials and contacts in the show notes. Go ahead and give him a follow. He could use some more followers. Just kidding. Not kidding, Jay. Thank you again to Jay Ferracane an Angry Bovine. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 040: Greg Mazu | Singletrack Trails | Trails Don't Magically Happen

Greg Mazu is the Chief Encouragement Officer of Singletrack Trails, a self-proclaimed nomad and misfit, and an all-around passionate guy. Singletrack Trails is an outdoor recreation developer of trails for hiking, biking, and equestrian use all throughout the United States. Before Singletrack Trails became a national company, it was just Greg and the excitement he felt within the escape of the great outdoors. Greg teaches us that trails are in fact not magically built by fairies and elves, but through an equally magical experience of transforming the environment in an artistic way. We dive deep into why force engineering land creates an undesirable experience and how taking every tree and rock into account can shape a captivating experience instead. As a trail artist, you don’t impose your ideas onto the land, you take what the land gives you and work through the nooks and turns for a more natural approach. In the end, we apply the metaphor of land to our own lives and ask, how can we take what life gives us to create our own masterpiece?

In this episode, you'll learn...

• Greg’s upbringing in Southern Indiana, inspired by Greg LeMond, with dreams to race his bike in Europe
• The passion Greg had for road racing in his teens and the thrill of freedom he felt when riding
• Why Greg loaded up the truck and set for a life-changing move to Seattle, Washington by the end of the summer after college
• Discovering a whole new world in Seattle, including mountain biking, a “fake family”, and food beyond pizza and burgers
• Greg’s involvement with the Mountain Bike Advocacy Group in Colorado and the valuable trail-building lessons learned while volunteering
• How mountain bikers became a driving force in perfecting trail design to account for the reckless, less-represented sport of the late 90s and early 2000s
• Surprisingly, trails are not built by magic and they can’t be engineered like highways
• How Greg successfully transformed Singletrack Trails into an official organization after unintentionally realizing he had his own business
• What the “synthesis of connection” is and why it is a core value for Singletrack Trails
• Creating trail is designing an escape from reality. Trail building can be a form of art
• The importance of taking advantage of the situations that you are presented with
• Greg’s innovation during the pandemic, characterized by maintaining the success of Singletrack Trails along with tackling two other businesses, Tools for Trails and Desert Rat Tours

Resources

Singletrack Trails Tools for Trails Desert Rat Tours Greg Mazu Facebook Greg Mazu Instagram Greg Mazu LinkedIn

Quotes

[26:17] It goes back to being a kid. The bike was my escape from reality. My bike—it still is the escape from my reality. [30:21] Even to this day, most people say, “Oh, I didn't know that you can make a living doing that.” And at the time, I was even surprised that I could find a way to make a living just building trail. It was amazing to realize that I could do that. [55:32] We can get into the nitpicking of, “That corner’s too tight, or you should have gone below that rock or above that rock,” you know, it's art. Everybody has a different representation of what that art is, like a lot of people look at a Jackson Pollock and think he just threw paint on a canvas. [57:18] Trails are like shoes: you can't just have one pair.

Podcast Transcript

Greg Mazu 0:02

We were working as a business for 13 years before I realized that I needed to set up a business. So I like even though this is year 16, for Singletrack Trails, it's really like year three of trying to be organized. And I do a lot of referencing to restaurant the, like the restaurant industry, like we have the front of the house in the back of the house, the front of the house, include me and our biz dev guy and our marketing guy. And we chase the work and do the planning. And in the back of the house are the cooks, the chefs, the artists, the guys in the staff and the gals that get the project on the ground. And so we have the back of the house is dialed however the front of the house is still being created and figuring out how to, oh, we have an HR issue. Do we have something for that and every business chases this all the time, but that's the hardest thing right now.

Marc Gutman 1:00

Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a kid from Indiana in love with his bicycle, built his dream job, which turned into his dream company, building mountain bike and recreation trails all over the country. Hello, Have you missed us because we missed you. We took a short hiatus, summer schedules, kids getting back to school coming to terms with summer being over the struggle is real. It all got in the way. But I am so stoked for the upcoming slate of shows we have for you. And you are about to listen to our 40th episode. And when I say that it doesn't sound like a lot. But 40 episodes of Baby got backstory has been the greatest hardest work of my career. I love doing this show and the people I get to talk to I learned so much from every single guest. So thank you for your support. Thank you for listening. And thank you for keeping me going. Today's show is more than worthy of the 40th episode status. Today I am talking to Greg Mazu. Greg is a self described Nomad and misfit and along with his merry band of nomads and misfits, he has created his dream job designing and building mountain bike and recreational trails all over the United States. I'm sure that sounds like a dream job to a lot of you listening as well. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. We like high ratings on the apple charts because those help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce this awesome, amazing show. During our interview with Greg one thing will be incredibly clear. He loves what he does. He uses terms like trail artists, and clearly articulates his magical blend of work and play. Greg says his title single track trails is chief encouragement officer. And it's hard not to get encouraged and excited when hearing Greg talk about what he does. From a guy who loved to ride bikes and noodle on trails to a leader in the outdoor recreation industry. All across the country. Greg Mazu has reset the standard of what it means to do what you love. And this is his story. I'm here with Greg Mazu and he is the founder and chief encouragement Officer of singletrack trails. And Greg, can you just give us a little context what is singletrack trails?

Greg Mazu 4:27

Singletrack trails is a outdoor recreation developer. We build infrastructure, we create infrastructure across the country for natural surface hiking, mountain biking and equestrian use mainly but we do get into motorized, and we do get into bicycle skill parks and other things related to recreating on our natural resources.

Marc Gutman 4:48

And when you were a young child when Greg was eight years old, I mean, is that what you were doing? Were you off building trails.

Greg Mazu 4:56

I was always playing outside. Yes, and probably Like any other eight year old, I was fascinated with equipment. However, building trails was not something probably even on my radar as something that people do until their 20s or until my 20s. And so so we had no, it wasn't on the radar other than other than playing outside. I grew up in the Midwest and had no clue that trails really existed in the way that they do now.

Marc Gutman 5:24

Yeah, so tell me a little bit about that. Where'd you grow up? And and what was that? Like?

Greg Mazu 5:29

I mainly grew up in southern Indiana. It was as as most people who are from the Midwest, no, it was it was rather warm, it was rather humid. I spent most of my days pedaling my road bike around, got into road racing as a teenager and kind of like my mom. My mom had family in Oregon so so getting out to the Pacific Northwest was always a favorite thing in my life. And and so basically, once once I was able to start forming my own thoughts for what I wanted to do with life, I wanted to get out of the Midwest and out to the out to the west coast kind of as quickly as possible.

Marc Gutman 6:07

Yeah. Did you have a sense of what what that might be? I mean, did you always want to be in the outdoor recreation industry? Are you more like, hey, I want to be a doctor or construction dude or whatever.

Greg Mazu 6:19

I was a teenager in the years of Greg Lamond, and I wanted to I wanted to go to Europe and race my bike. I had no other thoughts other than that. Obviously, that didn't work out. But uh, um, but no, I really like I've never really thought in planned a life goal kind of kind of like that. Like, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer. When I grow up. I I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up right now. So I'm, I'm just taking I just take what life gives me and kind of kind of make the lemonade.

Marc Gutman 6:58

Yeah, and I love this image of you, idolizing Greg lemon, I kind of have this image of like even the the movie breaking away or something like that. The Italians are coming. The Italians are coming, but especially in Indiana, and all that kind of stuff. Like

Greg Mazu 7:13

I got, I used to be able to tell you every single road that that movie was filmed on back in the day, so

Marc Gutman 7:20

Iconic for sure. And, you know, what was it about road racing that caught your attention? What did you love about it?

Greg Mazu 7:28

It got me out of the house. Like Like, like everything that we see about outdoor recreation now getting out of the house, the freedom, the escape from reality, that that was road racing. To me, it got me out of the house, I I didn't want to focus on school as much as my parents wanted me to. I didn't want to they want to mow the lawn. So it got me It got got me my independence. You know, and my parents were pretty willing to let me start as as, as an early teenager, if you will, they started let me go in for an hour long ride and then two hour long rides, and then I would just go out and disappear and come back. Probably a better person for them to manage in the long run. So yeah, so so that's the road racing was my escape. I was in southern Indiana trails. I mean, what what trails there were weren't fantastic. The mountain bikes were, you know, fully rigid cannon lever brakes. Not super awesome. So road bikes were were were my escape.

Marc Gutman 8:28

Yeah, and that right there, you mentioned that, you know, it necessarily wasn't what, you know, your parents wanted for you. You want it, you know, they probably wanted you to study harder and you wanted to ride your bike. What did your parents want for you? Like, what were their hopes?

Greg Mazu 8:43

I think, you know, obviously, doing well in school, I probably, you know, moving moving on and getting what I would describe as as the corporate job and, and, and trying to make it make make big changes in that fashion. Um, you know, my dad worked for for BF Goodrich and Alcoa for most of his adult life. And I don't know if that was the way I studied exercise science in college and thought that I would, I would get involved with that somehow, some way. And, and, and I think they were okay with that decision. I think they would have preferred me to be a business graduate or something like that. And, yeah, it was something like expectations were kind of like, you need always kind of wanting to do better, but but there wasn't on the whiteboard of like, this is what Neal Mark, Mark off these boxes in your life kind of thing.

Marc Gutman 9:39

Yeah. And so when you were in high school in southern Indiana, like, what was the path for for most of your friends or most kids in your town? I mean, were they staying and working for the local company? Were they moving on to school? did was that always in your future to move on to higher education?

Greg Mazu 9:56

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Um, I might. I I grew up in a, a quote-unquote suburb of a bigger city so so everybody was a little better off. So, so higher education was always on track. I think maybe some people went off to school and then move back to where we grew up. And then some others. Others, like myself kind of escaped across the country to move on to, uh, you know, environments that that spoke more to them personally

Marc Gutman 10:28

Yeah, so tell me about that. So when you leave home and you finish high school, what does that look like? It sounds like he moved out west and give us a like,

Greg Mazu 10:39

Nope, still took me four more years. I went to Indiana University for four years. I moved out, you know how some people move out, go into the dorms and they go home every summer. That was not me. Hi. I basically moved into the dorm and kind of never went home like, the independence of living in a college town was fantastic. So So, between freshmen and sophomore year, I moved into a house with a bunch of bike racing buddies. We spent the summer racing bikes and that was, that was basically you know, the next three years after that, you know, I just stayed in Bloomington, Indiana for four years. And then graduated college and took a month off and in there, well, a month off like I just graduated college, right. So I took a month and drove around the West, in my Honda Civic living out of it ended up in Seattle and saw an old, an old IU friend. And about three weeks later, she called me up and said that they found me a temp job at the company they were working for she and her boyfriend were working for so I loaded up moving truck and moved out to Seattle, Washington by the end of the summer.

Marc Gutman 11:50

Yeah. And what was that job and the name of the company that was waiting for you in Seattle.

Greg Mazu 11:55

I was working with Raleigh and Diamondback bicycles. I was I was kind of like the grunt in the in the product development department assembling bikes for inner bike at the time assembling bikes for photoshoots. Helping out they still had a production line in Kent, Washington. So if there was an issue over there, I would, I would go over and start breaking chains for for the assembly line or, or helping to do whatever needed to help it on the assembly line. So wasn't the most intriguing job but it got me It got me out of out of the Midwest got me into Seattle, Seattle is is near and dear to my heart now. And I have a lot of fake family, as I like to call them out there. So I really, really kind of grew. That's when I kind of grew up and realized that there was a world outside of the Midwest.

Marc Gutman 12:45

Yeah, it must have been, you know, well, maybe not, you know, your dream job. It got you into the industry working in and around, you know, bikes, which must have much must have been great, right? That was your dream as someone who was so invested in cycling?

Greg Mazu 12:59

No, it was super good. Probably the last year in college, like bikes, bikes had kind of left my life a little bit, um, I and I was walking around, walking around life a little aimlessly and, and so got back, I got back into riding bikes got into mountain biking, got into realizing that there was more to food than just pizza and burgers, realizing that people spoke other languages, in, in, in our cities. And it was just completely eye-opening to me and I realized that it was awesome.

Marc Gutman 13:38

So then, so what did you study when you're IU? And when you left? You know, would you think you were going to do at that point, even before you got this job in Seattle,

Greg Mazu 13:47

I was an exercise science major. I thought well, towards the end there. Obviously, they're kind of pumping people into cardiac rehab kind of stuff and wasn't really speaking to me, I, you know, as as I tell a lot of people on my staff now I've got, I've got kids now working for me who are trying to ramp up at a degree or, or they're somewhere on a gap year or something like that. It's like no, you will go back to school and you will get a degree. So I kind of like left IU knowing that I had accomplished getting a degree but I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. So I just kind of was on the chase for trying to figure that out and getting into the bike industry with getting back into the bike industry or getting into the bike industry. And then getting back into bikes was a huge help for me. Um, but I was 22, 23 and still slightly. I didn't have a true north that I was following yet. So so I was bouncing around a little bit still then so

Marc Gutman 14:50

Yeah, and talk to me a little bit about that. So you know, you mentioned this idea of a true north and you're bouncing around a little bit. So where does this first job lead you to where How does that develop? And where do you go next?

Greg Mazu 15:03

I, that first job just kind of led me to realizing that there was more to life out there. Um, I ended up when I moved out to Seattle, I shared a moving truck with a friend from Indiana and I dropped him off in Colorado. So I spent about nine months in Seattle, and then I got restless. And, and so I started, my intent was to create a life where I could bounce back and forth between Seattle and Colorado. And so I came back to Colorado and hung out, hung out with some friends that I had here in her back up in Seattle for a little bit and then ended up I was going to come to Colorado for I grabbed my stuff, and I was going to come to Colorado and work for six months, doing temp jobs doing whatever kind of came across my way. And then and then go back to Seattle and kind of do the same, like, oh, I'll come back out and help you guys get the bikes ready for interbike are kind of doing whatever odd jobs I could, you know, been 20 like I said, 22-23 that's a pretty awesome life to be bouncing back and forth.

Marc Gutman 16:06

Yeah, and so like, what, you know, what I'm hearing is that, you know, the work though, is also like a little bit of an ends to a means like, like, like, what were you doing, you know, in these areas that was lighting you up and making it you know, pretty ideal as you put it,

Greg Mazu 16:22

I won't lie I was enjoying this life. I was rock climbing, I was kayaking, and I was mountain biking and road riding. You know, that's, that's what was was, was motivating me, at the time was to be playing outside and skiing and snowboarding. So that's what was was my driving force. But when on one of my stints here in Colorado, I ended up meeting a I in a meeting my girlfriend who is still around in my life at this point. So moving back and forth between Seattle and Colorado was kind of that dream disappeared. At that point, she wasn't super pumped on on that transient lifestyle. So which it turned out to be super good. Um, so I ended up working in Colorado for some some some random jobs for three years, I ended up packing boxes at a at a food supplement distributor for a couple of those years. And just it was not motivating me. And over that time, I got involved with the mountain bike advocacy group and started building trails as a volunteer starting getting more education, about building trails. And then I was able to weasel my way into a job with Colorado State Parks in Fort Collins, Colorado, and became a seasonal trail employee at a state park. So so that's how I got into what I'm doing. And then after about a year, I realized that they didn't really pay me as a state employee, they paid me more as a contractor. So I woke up one day and realized that I had a business I never had to make that decision to start leave a job and start my own business because the state of Colorado forced me into that at the time,

Marc Gutman 18:14

Thankfully, for the state of Colorado, but that's backup. Thank you, you covered a lot of ground and you jumped right you know right into Hey, I've got a business, but uh, you know, so you're, you're working this job, your pack jobs, one of them's packing boxes, but but you're lit up by the outdoors, and you're lit up by writing. And take me a little bit into this. You mentioned that you joined a trail advocacy group you started volunteering on the trail, like kind of take me back to that, like Do you remember like the first like, why you did it? And then maybe like, what was the first trail you actually like started, you know, digging on or working on or, you know, let's talk a little bit about that

Greg Mazu 18:56

So that's a tough one. The first trail that we actually I actually did trail work on that would be that's in the distance that's in the distant memory hire. I remember the first one that I worked on it as a professional but but really like what happened is is Barb was in my life. She had moved to Colorado from New England where she had been mountain biking had been in her history back in New England quite a bit and and she had done some some volunteer trail days. And so we both got involved with the with the local group in Fort Collins together. And so she took me to a couple volunteer days. I was like, I don't want to do that I want to go ride my bike this weekend. And so, but ended up ended up going to those and enjoying it enjoying being outside and wanting to do more and realizing that it helped it helped this passion that I had for mountain biking at the time it helped like I was helping to make make the trails more more to my liking because that's, you know, a lot of volunteers are out building on trails and they're their driving force typically is to make sure trails, more to their liking whether whether whether hiking mountain biking or questioning us, they they want to make the trails better for how they use the trails.

Marc Gutman 20:11

Yeah, and that's where I was going with that. I mean, you know, I think my initial reaction I'm a little embarrassed to say would be like yours. It's like, Hey, I don't want to go to like an advocacy group, I want to go and like, ride my bike or hang with my friends. So like, I just like, what is it about advocacy? Even at that level? That's important, like, What? What caught your attention there? Or, you know, why was it important, you know, to BB for you guys to go and do that?

Greg Mazu 20:36

Well, at the time, um, mountain biking is the redheaded stepchild of outdoor recreation endeavors, if you will, like it's, it's the one of the younger ones to the table, we're trying to use the same trails is hiking and equestrian use. And so through advocacy, mountain biking has been able to gain more access to more trails in the long run.

Marc Gutman 21:02

Yeah. Awesome. That's really interesting to me that like, you know, I think today, we look around, and especially here in Colorado, but I think of everywhere I was in Michigan for a while this summer, it's like, mountain biking doesn't seem to be today. This kind of younger, like less represented sport, it seems very mainstream to me. So to hear you say that. And to take us back there is really interesting. And, and yeah, can you talk a little bit about like, where mountain biking was at the time, you're kind of getting into that, but I just find that really, really fascinating.

Greg Mazu 21:34

Yeah, and I think that the efforts, the efforts of the late 90s and early 2000s are why mountain biking seems way more mainstream at this point. But at the time, you know, we're, you know, mountain bikes were coming off of and being fully rigid. And Kenny lever breaks trails were not necessarily built for mountain biking at the time. And so they they were built by hikers and horseback riders, and they saw a summit and they're like, we want to go to that summit. And so the trails kind of took the direct route up up the hill. And so for a mountain biking at the time, it coming down a hill on canny lever brakes, which, if you remember required pretty much your entire hand your all four fingers to be gripping as tight as possible to kind of, you know, and they were, you know, rim brakes, disc brakes didn't exist, there were there was barely any suspension at the time. So mountain bikes were known for being reckless and out of control, and didn't belong on trails. Um, and and in the trails were steep. And so there was a lot of hiking, biking going up the hill to a lot of a lot of, you know, skidding down the hill. And so so it was a struggle It was a struggle for for mountain bikers to keep access to trails in local environments and whatnot. And over time, disc brakes evolved and, and over time, you know, suspension happened, so it was easier to stay in control. And it's always kind of fun to hop on a bike that has narrow handlebars, canny lever brakes, and no suspension and go for a ride and just be like, I wish the kids today knew understood what we went through back in the day, right? Like, oh, they have it so good with technology. But, you know, so but mountain hikers and equestrians, to serious stereotype, they would say, all this erosion on trails is caused by mountain bikers. They're the newest, the newest kid on the block. And, and mountain bikers knew that that was not true. It was actually the design of the trail for the trail that had not been designed but had been walked in and hiked in and horseback in. And so So, mountain bikers took that opportunity to say, hey, let's let's, let's work on this. Let's reroute these trails, let's make it the grade less steep. Let's make it more the catchphrases is sustainable. I prefer the term durable let's make it more durable. And and by through that like the the trail became easier to climb so we didn't have to hike a bike as much and coming down we were able to to increase perceive speeds. So you feel like you're going faster, but you're actually more in control. And then it's like oh, you see a hiker, you're able to actually stop. And and we're, you know, we're able to take out blind corners where his you know, like, it always seems that wherever there's a blind corner, there's there's a high rate of speed for a mountain biker and you come around the corner and there's a horseback rider and a cliff. And it's like you scare them and it's like they feel like they're about to fall off the cliff. So we were able to use, you know, trail design in trail maintenance, and trail construction to kind of reshape the industry making trails more, more sustainable and more durable. I'm sure some people will say I'm giving mountain bikers too much credit for for, you know, the change in this industry. But if you look at if you look at the companies that are out there Who are pushing the industry forward, we all came from from the sport of mountain biking so so I feel I feel like it's a fairly accurate assessment of life.

Marc Gutman 25:10

And I love that glimpse just into the early days and, and what it was like and the challenges and you know, hiking your bike up and then bomb and down and try not to like flip over the handlebars. And so like, it wasn't easy, you know, and, and I remember the first time I was on a mountain bike, like it just, it was fun. It was cool, but it certainly wasn't easy and right so what like, what did you love about it? Like, why why mountain biking with everything that you have going on? You have climbing there was some you know, road road biking, all the things we do in Colorado, and I know you didn't just probably didn't just abandon that stuff. But like, what was it that really lit you up? about getting on a mountain bike back, especially back then, you know,

Greg Mazu 25:51

I think, you know, one, it's it's a bicycle and bicycles have always been the one the one tool that motivates me the most as like, I can live someplace without skiing, but I cannot live someplace without mountain biking. Like, like, you take my bike away. I become a very sad individual. So I think why

Marc Gutman 26:15

Why? What's so great about a bike?

Greg Mazu 26:17

It goes back to being the kid, the bike was my escape from reality. my bike, the you know, it still is the escape for my reality, I may, you know, there was a there was a period in life where I couldn't really ride a mountain bike trail without being critical of how it was built or how it was maintained. And and today I may kind of think a little too much about work on it, but still, it's how I escape reality of the world. Um, and it's really nice, it's, it's, it's, it's similar to like going snowshoeing in my, in my opinion, like, like, if you if you go for a hike, you have to walk up the hill and you have to walk down the hill. And, and let's not forget that walking down the hill is actually harder and on the knees on the hips on on the feet, because you're breaking with with with your feet. And so so it's just like snowshoeing you walk up the hill Do you have to walk down versus mountain biking is like back countries, you know, splitboarding or skiing where you get to skin up the hill to slide down and so same thing with mountain biking is you get to you get to pedal up the hill and you get to roll down the hill. And that's that's just way more fun than having a walk down it so

Marc Gutman 27:31

Thank you for that. And so you know you let's go back to you know you you've kind of fallen into this this job with the state of Colorado and and can you just reset that so you're What are you doing for them at the time when you realize like, hey, like I'm a contractor and I've kind of got a thing going on here.

Greg Mazu 27:53

Well at the time I'm I'm basically just the seasonal trails coordinator for Laurie State Park in here in Fort Collins. And my job is in 97 there was a large thunderstorm that sat over the park and over the town and flooded the park and a lot of the town so So my job is to help complete a trails plan to rebuild some of the trails up there from from from that storm, I think it dropped like 12 or 15 inches of rain in like a 24 hour period. So a lot of the trails had gotten hammered from that and so my job was to work with volunteers work with Youth Corps to go out and work by myself to to kind of maintain trails, reroute trails and implement this trail plan that the previous person had created. And, and it was a six-month job. And so, you know, after the first six months, I got another job. Another temp job here in Fort Collins. I then went back the following summer, and the position was funded through a grant. And it was that second year that you know, it was like kind of like, well, well, you're not really a state employee because of you know, we can't use this grant money to pay you as a state employee. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm not a bit I don't have insurance for this. And so so we found a way to launder my money through an A nonprofit locally, that first year but it really there was enough money for the next two years for me to be working at Laurie State Park and so it kind of like allowed me to to continue that that second six months season and then at the time the international mountain bicycling association was creating their trail solutions program and they were leveraging people like myself to kind of show up on projects and help get them done. So I was able to start kind of like farming myself out and and then do a little bit of contract. We're planning work by a contract for Laurie State Park in the wintertime. It didn't really like I like to say that I woke up one day and it and it hit me in They kind of did. But it was really like a 12 month process for me to realize that, oh, hey, like I, they're, they're paying me as a contractor. It took probably two or three more years for me to realize that I had my own business. But I was I was able to piece together three or four years of just constant trail work. And as an even to this day, most people say, like, Oh, I didn't know that you can make a living doing that. And it's just like, at the time, I was even surprised that I could make it, you know, find a way to make to make a living just building trail. And, and, you know, it was amazing to realize that I could do that.

Marc Gutman 30:36

Yeah, and so at this time, is it just you or do you have a you bring on crew? Or what does that look like?

Greg Mazu 30:43

It was me, myself and I. I was, you know, if if I was if I was getting called up to you know, Wyoming state parks called me in to wrap up a small project. If it was trail solutions, I might show up in there other other other vagabonds like myself, who were trying to get into this business, so it might be a team on one of those projects, but but, but really like, from this is 2004 I like to say January one, 2004 is the start of the business. So from this is like 2004 through, say, 2007 the business was was me, myself and I, I was I was out building by, you know, doing projects building by hand. By the end of that I I owned a truck, a trailer and a machine. I had, you know, work in Wyoming and Colorado. And and i was i was i was i was living the dream, if you will.

Marc Gutman 31:41

This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy loyal customers that purchase again and again, which is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. I'm sitting here thinking what's special or what's difficult about trail design and building it this time and what I mean by that is like why not just like what why aren't these organizations just you know, using folks they have on the payroll or other community members handing them a shovel and saying get out it like what's difficult about this or like what's the challenge?

Greg Mazu 33:05

The challenge is most people feel like also, I'll put it this way. Most people feel that trails are built by fairies and elves even to this day. And that means that they just magically appear or if in the case of elves there is a union and they do get paid but trails just magically appear it's like there's we want there's the some of the mountain please just go out and and and and you know, cut some brush and just you know rake and ride is kind of what those trails are called because you could you just rake some brush out of the way and you can even ride it you can hike it and you can ride your horse on it. But they're like where I struggle is some people say standards or specifications and this is trail building our standard is plus or minus a foot so so I apologize to all the engineers but engineers are not super fantastic at building great trail. And so at the time where it was coming from is my job title at the time was trail artist. And so even today we say we create trail we're artists we're a band of of nomads and misfits and we're and we create trailer artists we take what the land gives us and we can see the UPS downs left's and rights and and and put that in and if you just go out and build it like a road, you go, you go for 1000 feet and put a turn in and go for 1000 feet, that's just, it's unengaging. You know, driving a superhighway is unengaging is fast and straight and we want to we want to disengage from reality and so you have to take the rocks and the trees and the train that that that the the the topography gives you and you have to artistically create something so that that was the difference then is those of us that we're kind of seeing trails is art. Seeing trails as as we want to take what the land gives us And build with that not take what we want to input it in force it on the land. So so that was the difference. That's why it was difficult, if you will.

Marc Gutman 35:08

Yeah. And so I think this is a good time, as I was researching prior to our interview here, on your website, front and center, it says, we believe in this synthesis of connection. What does that mean?

Greg Mazu 35:23

It means that, like, as I like to say, we're trying to, we're trying to connect users and advocates to the trails of their dreams, we're trying to connect land managers to the trails that they want to manage. And I'm trying to connect staff to a dream job, if you will, I'm trying to take nomads and misfits who are passionate about being outside and recreating and providing a good time for others in creating a job that that maybe someday they could afford a mortgage. I'm trying to create that and so so the synthesis of connection is we're trying to take all these different concepts and we're trying to merge them together into enjoying and enjoying the natural resources and escaping reality.

Marc Gutman 36:09

And you mentioned this a couple times you talk about nomads and misfits like why did they Why are they the perfect employees? Why? You know, normally nomads and misfits are not the ideal job description for a business so like, Why Why is it Why is that the ideal job description for you in single track trails?

Greg Mazu 36:28

One I'm, I'm a nomad and a misfit I am I am best on the go. And, and putting me putting me in many environments I don't quite fit in into most in most social circles. So um, but not like in order to make a business I realized early on in order to in order to make a successful business, I was going to have to travel one that spoke to me because I love to travel I want to go other places. And to like there's only like I'm my girlfriend lives in Fort Collins, I pay my mortgage in Winter Park and the companies are based in Grand Junction. So I'm, I'm constantly on the go. But pick any one of those locations. There's there's only so many trails that can be built in a specific location. So So we've worked, we worked across the country. And so no matter and a misfit has to be, you know, there are people that are willing to chase chase the work to to enjoy life.

Marc Gutman 37:23

And so let's go back a little bit. You said you know, I think it's around 2007 it's just you up to that point, you've got a truck, a tractor, some machinery some tools, like what changes for you in the business around then which takes it into I would say just a more of a growth mode or more of a larger business.

Greg Mazu 37:48

Just to I wouldn't say growth, he says a larger business what happened was, I was doing so a bit of work for him betrayal solutions, and an over on the west loop in Grand Junction and that in a another statewide nonprofit called bicycle Colorado and the BLM Bureau of Land Management. We're all working on a plan for some trails based in downtown Grand Junction called the lunch loops. As everybody knows, that are the tabel watch trailhead, and they had plans for at the time was going to be the first official on on BLM land, technically on public land in the country. Free Ride trail for mountain biking so not just your cross country trail but a trail that has jumps and drops and one could argue that every trail has jumps and drops but at the time in 2007 this was a huge thing. So I invoked bicycle Colorado and the BLM have a what's more you have a memorandum of understanding to to push this project forward because it's in Colorado but bicycle Colorado was was going to be the the the organization that pushed it forward and so I knew this and I hounded the executive director at the time Dan grunich like i was i was i he probably saw my emails coming in was just like Ah, this dude again, but I hounded him until until he could not resist anymore that I was I was supposed to be the guy that that was was gonna complete that project and help bicycle Colorado get it done. And Dan finally relented and and brought brought me on board to you know, I was kind of a subcontractor slash employee of bicycle Colorado, and in September of 2007 is is when we started building what is now known as free lunch. But in order to do that, I needed to bring on a couple other staff members and one of those was a local bike shop mechanic that that did a lot of jump building and a lot of digging and basically I was told by a couple People in meetings over in Grand Junction like if you want this show to be a success, you need to be bring James on board. So I listened, I called up James and said, Hey, would you help build this trail with me? And and he said yes. And it like, like that sounds like the start of a relationship and and it was because 13 years later, he is he is still with the company and and he is our chief project manager, Chief trail artist as well. So, so that was the change in 2007. And his got a big project, how to bring on a staff member. And then the next year, Wyoming state parks had a big project brought on a couple more, more staff members. And we were splitting time between Grand Junction in Wyoming and continued over the next three or four years to keep building projects in those two areas specifically, but also start to chase work in in Utah. We even went as far as as Tennessee in 2013. So so that was that was the start of it all.

Marc Gutman 41:02

Yeah. And at that point, I mean, right before that inflection, that inflection moment, where you vision envisioning where you're, if you're you thinking, you know, I need to turn this into a bigger business, I want a bigger business, or was this all was it inertia was it just like, hey, there's an opportunity, and it snowballs from there.

Greg Mazu 41:19

Inertia I like, probably even through, even through 2013, as as we chased a project that project in Nashville, Tennessee, it's like I just like, I almost felt like the company was too big, um, like, I just like, I was okay with me, plus a couple people, but, but, um, I hadn't really come to the realization that if you're going to, if you were going to build a business you had, you had to, like, create a business. And it was it was, like, like, there was some times where like, like, we were wrapping up a project, and I didn't know what was going to be next for us. And, and fortunately, I had enough irons in the fire that something came through at the last second, we were able to keep working but but it was it was total inertia, like I had, like, in 2007. If you said this might be getting a little head, but if you said in in 2007, if you said in 10 years, you're gonna have you know, a staff of 15 people and and you're going to be doing, you know, seven times the amount of work you're doing right now, I've been like, No, thank you, I just know that I don't want to do that. I just want to be out in the woods building trail, let alone now I don't even I don't even build trail anymore. I just I just run the company. So

Marc Gutman 42:33

Yeah. And that's that kind of leads me to a question that I've been forming over the courses interview, like, how does like and we'll try to keep this short. But like, how does this work? You know, like, how does it start? Like, how do like how do you even come into a project? What do you do? Like, what is what does this actually look like?

Greg Mazu 42:52

Everything and that's the great thing. If, if the theme hasn't been obvious yet, I'm not quite a dog with a squirrel or bright light. But I am almost like that I needed I like doing the same thing over and over is not me. So every project is different with, with how it forms. With how it gets to the finish line, you know, for us, some projects are somebody calls us up and says we have a trail, here's the flag line, we want you to build it this way. And we can do that some people call us up and say, Hey, we have this property, we have an idea for a trail, could you come in and help? You know, lay it out and create you know, create the design for it. And we can do that. And some projects are a combination of the two. Some projects go out to bid competitively on an art on a RFP. Some projects are sole sourced in some projects are start out with an RFP, and then they enjoy working with us. And then we become sole source. So some projects are privately funded. Some projects are funded with grants and some projects are funded with line items out of municipal budgets. So every every single project is completely different in terms of how and how in terms of how it gets to us and how and how we create it.

Marc Gutman 44:12

And with all that variability, I'm sure there's a lot of challenges. But what's the most challenging part of your business now? I mean, what, what's what's the tough part thing that we don't see?

Greg Mazu 44:23

Yeah, the tough part is we were working as a business for 13 years before I realized that I needed to set up a business. So I like even though this is year 16 for single track trails. It's really like year three of trying to be organized and I do a lot of referencing to restaurant the rest like the restaurant industry, like we have the front of the house in the back of the house, the front of the house include me and our biz dev guy and our marketing guy. And we chase the work and do the planning and in the back of the house are the cooks, the chefs, the artists, that guys in the staff and the gals that get the project on the ground, and so we had the back of the house is dialed, however the front of the house is still being created and figuring out how to, oh, we have an HR issue. Do we have something for that and every business chases this all the time. But that's the hardest thing right now is getting organized and making sure that the world doesn't think that we're like, showing the world that we're not a junk show, even though we might be a junk show on the back end.

Marc Gutman 45:30

In that vein, other than the idea that trails just magically appear, which I kind of just love that, because I think that everyone probably just assumes that what else do people get wrong about the work you're doing?

Greg Mazu 45:43

The biggest thing and this happened quite a bit is, especially this time of year, last week. Oh, by the way, it's snowed. And there was basically a blizzard in Colorado, the earliest ever, right after record heat waves. And so people and this week is beautiful. So so people will will head out. And if they see our trail staff on this beautiful 83 degree day, where we're finally smoke in the forest, you know, there's no smoke in the air from the forest fires, and they'll just be like, you have the best job ever. You're out here every day. It's like, Where were you two weeks ago, and it was 105 degrees. And we were breeding smoke, Where were you last week when it was a blizzard. And now this is the great like, so everybody thinks we have the best job because we're outside, but they always forget that we have to work in harsh environments.

Marc Gutman 46:33

Yeah, one of the things I love about your story, and what I know about you, as well is, you know, from the outside At least it appears that both opportunity and, and and just problems are the mother of invention and progress for your business. And so I know that you have other businesses that have that have come out of single track trails, what are those look like?

Greg Mazu 46:57

Primarily the other. The other, I have two other official businesses right now one being tools for trails, which is an online tool retailer for trail building supplies. And then a couple years ago, my ego acquired an existing business over in Grand Junction, it's a shuttle guide company called desert rat tours, I had watched some friends run it as a side hustle. And I was like, and I was like, it doesn't take much work to to drive that business and, and my ego heard that they were selling it and so I acquired it from them. And since then single track trails and tools for trails have been growing. So it's kind of the redheaded stepchild of my businesses. But now my side hustles are getting side hustles if you will, in tools for trails, we're developing a in-house tool brand called back slope tools. So we're trying to take the tools that that trail builders have been using for you know, 100 plus years, and in trying to modify them into to modern tools and give them a modern take on on, on how we actually use the tools and and make them stackable, so you can put them in a trailer make them lockable in case they're there in your in the back of your truck and you're in you're in downtown Denver and in either run into the hardware store or something like that. But just also like, so many times volunteer after volunteer events are so many times at the end of a long workday. You sit around on a tailgate with a beer and you're like, ah would it be great if we had this tool and so we're finally taking the time to take all those all that beer talk and actually turn it into tools. And make a modern, you know, it's a on a on a quick side note one of one of our tools or trails. Vendors sent out an email last week like Oh, hey, like we're like, we, we've we've updated a tool and they took they took a tool they added for length four inches to the handle length, and it's just like, oh, that that's an update. Okay, um, No, thank you. So so so the side hustle has a side hustle there. And we're also looking at singletrack trails is also looking to get back into more land planning with the landscape architect on staff and we're looking to get into some, you know, there's always fabrication needs for every trail project. So we're looking at maybe create a fab arm as well. So when this when this pandemic hit, I was wondering if the business was going to survive. And I figured that when I wasn't going to be traveling, I get kind of bored and I was like, hopefully I don't start another business. And and fortunately for us singletrack trails is going to survive and prosper at this point. And I started three other businesses. So I kind of like succeeded, but also failed at my goals in March.

Marc Gutman 49:49

The good kind of failure. And so, you know, as you were talking what really struck me is it almost and you can correct me because this is just my my interpretation, but the trail building and where you're at today, it really is really paralleling the journey you described of mountain biking itself, you know, a ways back where we started, it was kind of like, you know, we had the best that we had, but the technology just wasn't there. And it sounds like now, you know, through tools for trails and, and your other side hustles have side hustles that, you know, you're working to bring trail building into a more, you know, technologically, current state, you know, the right tool for the right job. I mean, would that would that be accurate?

Greg Mazu 50:35

Yeah. I, the answer is yes. The show I guess the short answer to that is yes, um, I'm just trying to take advantage of situations that I kind of see in front of me, again, like, the intent was not, when, when all of that when all of this started, the intent was not to, to to intentionally modernize the tools and whatnot, it was just like, hey, can can we take the time to produce this tool, and the tool and the tool brand came specifically from tools trails, which has been around for eight years, as as, as a small like, just providing singletrack trails and, and, and trail groups in Colorado with tools it came around with, like, there's not a lot of margin in the tools that we sell. And so it's like, having been in the bike industry having been on the periphery of outdoor recreation industry, like how, how can we create a supply chain that gives us better margin so that every time every every group that calls me up once wants 50% off on their tools? and me being the guy like, yes, you're putting great trail on the ground here, here you go. It's like, how can we make it so that if I give somebody a discount, I'm not basically paying for their tools as well. So So that's, that's where, you know, it just, it just keeps the opportunity to kind of keep coming because, at best, I'm an opportunity just like, I'm just taking advantage of, of what life is giving me.

Marc Gutman 52:03

And so what makes a great tool?

Greg Mazu 52:06

In the historic words of Keith Bontrager in the bike industry, light, cheap and strong pick two, however, we're trying to do all three, we're trying to make it we're trying to make it light. We're trying to make it strong, and we're trying to make it affordable.

Marc Gutman 52:19

And so what does singletrack trails look like today?

Greg Mazu 52:22

Today we are a staff of about 47 people. We have Front Range Colorado based staff we have a Grand Junction based staff. We're looking to expand staff based into Salt Lake City last year, Fall of 2019 I brought on a longtime subcontractor based in Brevard, North Carolina. So we have North Carolina based staff and we were trying to build up these we used to be a regional company that works nationally and now we're trying to become a national company that works regionally. And so we're trying to develop in scale through these through these these smaller regional hubs versus versus trying to take color out of staff all over the all over the country.

Marc Gutman 53:05

Yes, anything scary about that?

Greg Mazu 53:09

Uh, no and that's probably what I should be scared about. I mean, the great The great thing I get to do like for me personally for a guy that loves to travel it's like I get to go to Salt Lake and park see on a regular basis I get to hopefully you know go to Boulevard North Carolina and ride his gun and and and the trails and in Knoxville and down into Georgia and and you know, at some point we'll probably expand into new england and maybe Oregon in California and so so like, like, what was me I like I get to travel to great places and ride great trails and and hang out at great breweries and with great people all over the place. So no, it doesn't scare me. It makes me it makes me want to pop the clutch and punch the gas. Let's go. Yeah,

Marc Gutman 53:58

I was gonna ask that. I think you just you answered the question, but I wasn't gonna you know, we know people do get wrong. You said like, Hey, you got the dream job but it does sound and a lot of respects you have the dream job and and you know, I was gonna ask do you really get to ride you know, the trails that you work on? Do you really get to experience the town's but I'll let you kind of answer that over again. But it sounds great.

Greg Mazu 54:20

Yeah, the answer is yes. I have created a dream job and you know what, you know, even even on the crappy days in my staff now they they they they enjoy the crappy days just as much as they enjoy the great days. But no, I get to are there people that are more fit on a bicycle than me because they get to ride more often. Yes. However, I get to go to you know, all these great places and, and ride the great trail with somebody who knows it. Um, I have some other friends that I travel with every spring or fall we'll go to down to Arizona to the desert and whatnot. And I'll be like, Oh, you Yeah, I've got I've got Joe coming out to ride with us today. And they're like, Who? Like, like, Is there any place in the country that you can go and not be one phone call away from a ride partner? And I was like, No, I don't think so. And that was like, in that within that it really at that moment, it was just like, yeah, that's pretty badass.

Marc Gutman 55:20

That is pretty badass. What about a trail drives you crazy? Like, what what do you see that you just just ruffles your feathers?

Greg Mazu 55:28

When they when they force their will on to the terrain? You know, we can we can get into the nitpicking of like, all that corners too tight, or it's or or you should have gone below that rock or above that rock, you know, every you know, you know, it's it's art everybody has a different representation of, of what that art is, like a lot of people look at a Jackson Pollock and think he just threw paint on a canvas. And for me, it's when you take a you basically take the machine that you have you have a concept for a trail, and the train is not what that what that should be. Take. You know, we have to do this sometimes, but you have to build a green downhill trail across a black ski run like that. Is that the best use of that terrain? Probably not. If you're working in Iowa, you know, they want a rocky technical train, which is like a rocky technical trail. And it's just like, well with what rock like, this is Iowa. You guys, you guys sold off all your rocks 100 years ago for better farming. And and so when you when you just kind of, you know, engineer a trail that that's that's what bugs me, that's what bugs me the most you need. You need to take what the earth gives you and you need to to shape your trail because of that.

Marc Gutman 56:47

If you could only ride one trail ever again. Which one would it be? And why? Just one, just one I know. It's hard. I know. It's hard. But I want to know, I want to know what you like, you know what your perfect trail looks like?

Greg Mazu 57:02

One trail or one region?

Marc Gutman 57:05

I'll give you a region.

Greg Mazu 57:06

Grand Junction-Fruita Thank you. That was That was tough. I'm in the read. The reason being I love the desert. And the reason is, bikes are like shoes. trails are like shoes, you can't just have one pair, right? You need a pair of shoes for every event and so Grand Junction fruta it's the desert I love the desert. We have rocky technical trails there that we you know, we have built and also others have built there. We have the in between trails, and there's even some some pumpy jumpy trails. And that's where I would pick but as I ramble through this, this question like, there's a trail and Winter Park that we built a few years ago, we call it Howler. And that's like, I could ride that trail a whole lot.

Marc Gutman 57:52

Nice. Nice. And so as we come to a close here, Greg, question we asked everyone on the show, if you ran into your 20 year old self today, what do you think he'd say?

Greg Mazu 58:03

Hopefully a couple nice things. I mean, I was 20. I was opinionated. And not always the nicest of dudes to other people. So I think I would approve of the life choices that I that I have made. I have I have figured out how to take what has been given to me and and turn it into something that I enjoy. And I think that's, you know, trying to think back. This is a fantastic question, trying to think back about. I was desperately trying to be a road bike racer at the time, and I would probably be excessively disappointed that that didn't work out. But hopefully I would be smart enough to realize that I turn life into something pretty awesome.

Marc Gutman 58:49

And that is Greg Mazu. Take what the land gives you. This keeps echoing in my head. And I can't help but think that's a metaphor for life as well. Especially as all our lives had been up ended during this pandemic, what our lives in the world look like if we took what it gave us, instead of trying to force engineer against it. Just a thought. Thank you again to Greg Mazu, singletrack trails and tools for trails. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 039: Denise Lee Yohn | Branding Expert | Some Jobs Are Too Small for Some Spirits

Denise Lee Yohn is best known as the go-to branding consultant for Silicon Valley’s top companies. But Denise is not your average branding expert. She is a helicopter-flying, passion-seeking, servant leader with the authenticity and insight to blow you away. Denise cultivated her brand-building approaches through her sought after career in consumer research analytics and brand strategy with companies including Spiegel Catalog, Burger King, and Jack In The Box. Denise later amassed major accolades for heading Sony Electronics’ first brand office, which encouraged her to embark on a journey as an independent brand advisor. Impressed yet? Well, she doesn’t stop there.  Most of Denise’s time is now spent as a thought leader/speaker while writing books such as “What Great Brands Do” and “Fusion”, contributing to Forbes, and doing so much more. Listen in as Denise shares how companies can cultivate a strong brand culture from the inside out and address challenges during the pandemic and civil unrest. Over everything, Denise uses her faith to drive her purpose and motivate her to serve others, which inspires us to ask, how can we help someone today?

In this episode, you'll learn...

• Denise’s passion for branding starting with her interest in Nike as a status symbol during high school in St. Louis, Missouri
• The evolution of a company’s role in people’s lives beyond its product into the realm of emotional connection and identification
• Denise’s interest in becoming a lawyer until all her time in stuffy libraries whisked away the TV glamour
• Spiegel Catalog and its role in exposing young Denise to the world of purchasing decisions and brand perception
• Growing up as an Asian American with the expectation of a serious career and how Denise made her parents proud
• How the Jack CEO character from Jack in the Box saved the company in the midst of a crisis by humanizing the brand 
• The discrimination Denise faced as an Asian American woman and her transformation from believing there was something wrong with her to becoming secure in her identity
• Denise’s relationship with her faith and how it has helped her overcome adversity and shape the impact she makes
• Why Denise used to be hesitant about sharing her faith and her path to becoming more transparent
• Working at Sony and how that became a kicking off point for Denise to start her own consulting practice as an independent brand advisor
• The #1 thing that the world’s greatest companies do to succeed according to Denise’s book, “What Great Brands Do”
• Developments that companies can achieve during the pandemic and civil unrest to create value for their communities, employees, and the world
• The complicated, yet fulfilling experience of learning to fly a helicopter!

Resources

Denise Yohn's Website Denise Yohn's Twitter Denise Yohn's Facebook Denise Yohn's Youtube Denise Yohn's LinkedIn

Quotes

[6:25] There's that quote from that movie “As Good as It Gets” when Jack Nicholson's character says to Helen Hunt's character, “You make me want to be a better man.”...[The best brands] strike a chord in the customer in such a way that makes the customer want to be something better, to do something better. And the brand is part of that journey to that better. [14:08] At the time I was working for Sony electronics, I was head of brand and strategy, first female vice president of the company, you know, all these accolades, all these great things. And he's like, “Why would you leave that to go work on your own?” And I just had to do what I felt was right for me and a good fit for me. [41:30] “Some jobs are too small for some spirits.” And it was just this idea that if you have a passion and a drive to do something in your work and your job is not allowing you to do it, you need to go get another job or you need to go do something else. [51:46] Everyone does contribute to the culture. But if the leadership isn't driving that forward, isn't setting the tone, setting the priorities and making sure that everyone in the organization understands what kind of culture we're going after then…no, you're not going to make progress.

Podcast Transcript

Denise Lee Yohn 0:02

16 years ago, I ended up leaving corporate America, I resigned to my job to start my own business. And that was, I think, really hard for my dad to understand. Like, he was like, why would you do that? At the time I was working for Sony electronics. I was head of brand and strategy, first female vice president of a company, you know, all these accolades, all these great things, and he's like, why would you leave that to go work on your own? And I just had to do what I felt was right for me and a good fit for me. And I think by now, he's not only accepted it But hopefully, he's proud of my decision.

Marc Gutman 0:45

Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like to think back stories and I cannot lie Hi, I'm your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking with brand expert Denise Lee Yohn. All right. All right. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience which then helps us to continue to produce this show. And we'd like producing the show, so please give us a rating if you think we deserve it. On today's episode, we're talking to Denise Lee Yohn. You may or may not recognize her name, but you would certainly recognize her face. Denise is the de facto branding expert when TV new shows need insights on the branding crisis of the day. Facebook or Starbucks in trouble. Denise is on TV is the brand new expert, you've undoubtedly heard her insights. And as you'll hear, Denise initially cultivated her brand building approaches through several high level positions in advertising and client side marketing. She served as the lead strategist at advertising agencies for Burger King, Land Rover and Unilever. And as the marketing leader and analyst for jack in the box restaurants in Spiegel catalogs. Denise went on to head Sony electronics first ever brand office, where she garnered major corporate awards is the vice president and general manager of brand strategy. And today she is a sought after keynote speaker, consultant and expert on branding and this is her story. So we're here today with Denise Lee Yohn and Denise is the go to expert on brand leadership she she's often appears on all the major networks when there's a big brand question such as like, what's Facebook doing with their advertising? Or how they're responding to criticism about how they're doing business? She's a keynote speaker and consultant and a very great writer. She's the author of the best selling book, what great brands do the seven brand building principals that separate the best from the rest in fusion? How integrating brand and culture powers the world's greatest companies? And, Denise, you are considered an expert on branding. So when you were a young girl,

Denise Lee Yohn 3:35

No, I only play one, I only play one on TV Marc. Just so you know.

Marc Gutman 3:39

Sometimes that's enough, right? So when you were younger when you were like, you know, eight 910 you know, did you think that you were gonna have a career in branding? Were you always drawn to branding?

Denise Lee Yohn 3:53

Well, that's interesting, because a couple years ago, I moved homes and I was looking through some old files. I found a paper That a written in high school about Nike. And I was kind of in elementary school when Nike was coming out really big if that gives you any sense of my age and the time period, but even back then I was fascinated by Nike the brand. And so I don't know if I knew the end up doing what I'm doing today, but definitely that passion for brands has been with me for a long time.

Marc Gutman 4:23

And back then what was it about Nike that was interesting to you?

Denise Lee Yohn 4:27

Well, I you know, I think was the first brand that people or at least in my world, that people felt like they wanted to show off and to like to wear their logos and kind of have T shirts with the names on it and that people like had some sort of connection to the brand, beyond just the product and you know, from that from that time till now I'm just really curious as to how brands seduce people almost to to get them to to buy them, pay more for them. Even love them.

Marc Gutman 5:00

Yeah, and I think that, you know, you hit on a really interesting point that there's been this evolution of brands and what it means. And, you know, for a while it was kind of just to signify a difference in, in production or packaging, but it really we are now moving into this era of brands as communities as self identification, as you know, something that we identify with beyond the product and service. And, you know, what's your thoughts on that and how that has changed from when you first encountered that that Nike brand, which is starting to have that that feeling and where we're at today?

Denise Lee Yohn 5:37

Right? Well, you know, it's so your question is so timely, because just yesterday, I was giving a keynote to a client, about iconic brands, and I talked about Nike. And, you know, I said that, you know, most most brands these days know, they need to have some sort of emotional appeal. So the fact that a brand creates some sort of emotional connection, it's really not news really anymore. What is Different about brands like Nike, and you know, we talked about Trader Joe's and even impossible foods is that it prompted people to like, identify, as you said, with that brand to see something in that brand that, you know, makes them feel the brand not only gets them, but it's also for them and inspires them to be, you know, to be a better person. You know, there's that quote from that movie as good as it gets when Jack Nicholson's character says to Helen Hunt's character, you make me want to be a better man. I think, you know, the best brands do that, who are their customers, they make them want to, they strike a chord in the customer in such a way that makes the customer want to be something better to do something better. And the brand is part of that journey to that better.

Marc Gutman 6:50

Yeah. And so that's where we are today. But let's say I still want to go back and so I know you live in San Francisco now. Did you grow up in the Bay Area? As well,

Denise Lee Yohn 7:01

No, I'm a Midwest girl. I was born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri, and then went to school and went to college in Chicago. So my very formative years were all in the Midwest and, and I think, you know, back then maybe the emotional appeal of a brand and particularly a brand like Nike was kind of more as a status symbol, or you know, kind of you're wearing the brand as a badge. And I think what happened you one of the things that happened between then and now is you know, the plethora of options and you know, similar products that are out there so much so that you know, it's it's pretty difficult for a brand today to differentiate based on a on a product alone our product feature alone and any sustainable way I mean, you know, they might be able to, to come out with a news but it's easily copied or out done by someone else. So I think that part of the response to that reality that companies found themselves in was to understand or to just to discover that they could actually create an emotional connection with the customer that was beyond the product that was more about that those feelings of identification, aspiration, and that kind of reconsideration that a brand might prompt for people. But it's I think it's, you know, whether a company's intended to do that, or whether they just found that that was a necessary, there has been an evolution. I don't think that brands played the kind of role that they play now that they did back then.

Marc Gutman 8:42

Yeah, not at all. And, you know, so you, you know, went to school in Chicago, and where'd you go to school there. Northwestern. Oh, very cool. Very cool. I'm actually recording this from a temporary location just about five hours north of there in Lake Michigan, in the Midwest in northern Michigan. Before four, we get back Colorado, but well, so you're in northwestern, and were you studying marketing and branding? At that time? Did you have any inkling that this would be your path forward?

Denise Lee Yohn 9:09

Well, actually, um, there was some time when I was choosing which school I was going to go to. And you know what I was going to study that actually thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Now you have to understand that this was the era or when era when la law was really big. So I'm definitely I'm dating myself now. But, you know, I like being an attorney and working a law for a singer like glamorous. So that was that might be for me. And so I went to Northwestern just to get a basic liberal arts background thinking that if I decided to go and be an attorney, I would take I would go into law school and so that would be a good foundation, and would also just open me up to other ideas. I guess at the time. I didn't really seriously consider "Oh, you know, I want to go work for an advertising agency or marketing, communications." And even if I did Northwestern College of Arts and Sciences, doesn't have a major like that they have a communications major and their journalism school, but not in the liberal arts school. So I just kind of said, you know, maybe I'll just do a little liberal arts study and I ended up double majoring in psychology and political science. But along that way, I did an internship at a law firm and realized all that glamour from the TV show was completely false. I said I would I myself and I would see other Junior lawyers spending hours and hours in this like stuffy library poring over these Martin Hubbell Dale books that were just just like, Oh, it was just awful. I thought, okay, I'm not going to be an attorney. So one of the things I did at Northwestern was I sold advertising for the daily Northwestern there, the student newspaper, and that got me really into the whole thing about well, maybe I could make advertising a career. And so my first job out of school was in market research.

Marc Gutman 11:00

Did you do that in Chicago? Or do you move away?

Denise Lee Yohn 11:04

Yes. So Spiegel catalogs again, I feel like I'm really dating myself talking about all these old brands, old circumstances, but-

Marc Gutman 11:14

Classic, iconic is what we prefer to say.

Denise Lee Yohn 11:18

Really! I mean, I have to say that in Siegel's heyday, I mean, and when I worked there, that was definitely a time of growth and, and real, like, it was Spiegel was part of the culture really. It's not only in fashion, but also in home furnishings, etc. They I was a market research and, and at market research analyst and there I really learned how to understand customers. What are the research tools that you can use to understand how they're making purchase decisions, how they develop brand perceptions, how they end up favoring one brand over others. So it was a really great continuing continuation of my education. You first job,

Marc Gutman 12:01

And what your parents think of all this. I mean, you left to go to school to be a lawyer, and we didn't really talk about it. You mentioned you had the foresight to be like, this is not for me, but were they crossed were they were they bummed?

Denise Lee Yohn 12:13

Well, you know, both of my parents were my mom passed away. My dad is still living on chemical engineers. And so they thought that I, you know, they wanted their kids to be engineers, or do something very practical sciency. But my older sister ended up going to MIT and getting her degree in computer computer science and engineering. And so she took care of that, and I was like, fine, she's gonna go be the good daughter, and I'll go be the rebellious daughter and do a little bit of liberal arts background. And they ended up being fine with it, but I do have to say that, you know, being an Asian American, and my parents definitely had different expectations for me than maybe some of my Anglo counterparts were they did think that, you know, to have to be You needed to have a serious career. But when you once I got hired by by Spiegel I think they realized, okay, this this could be a serious career.

Marc Gutman 13:08

Yeah. And they were cool with that because I do remember like, even when I was coming up, I never really, like when I came out of college, I didn't really understand marketing. And I think I kind of thought it was all logos and colors and, you know, kind of catalog layouts and yeah, that was just, you know, obviously incorrect interpretation or the way I thought of it, but I don't know if other people thought that as well. I mean, were they like, Okay, this is legit, or were they thinking or not so sure about this marketing thing?

Denise Lee Yohn 13:36

Yeah, no, I think that the, you know, the all they wanted to know is I was going to bring home a steady paycheck. And you know, I was working for a reputable company. And, you know, that which sets up a transition that I don't know if you want me to jump to but eventually about so this is in 2004. So what tooth No, yeah. 2004 so 16 years ago, I ended up leaving corporate America. I resigned my job to start My own business. And that was, I think, really hard for my dad to understand. Like, he was like, why would you and at the time I was working for Sony electronics, I was head of brand and strategy, first female vice president of a company, you know, all these accolades, all these great things. And he's like, why would you leave that to go work on your own? And I just had to do what I felt was right for me and a good fit for me. And I think by now, he's not only accepted it, but hopefully he's, he's proud of my decision.

Marc Gutman 14:34

Yeah, and I want to get there and I want to talk about that. But let's say you're here at Spiegel. And you're you're learning about marketing, and you're learning about, you know, customer analytics. And at that point, are you like, this is this is where I want to be, are you just kind of like I was probably at that age, which was, I'm working, I'm hanging out. I'm kind of figuring out the world and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

Denise Lee Yohn 14:59

I'm trying to remember, I'm not sure. I don't know if I could answer definitively, I do know that, at that time work became a real work and career became a very important part of my life. And, you know, I remember from, from those early ears, really getting deriving a lot of joy and satisfaction out of working and excelling. Unfortunately, my boss at Spiegel not only, you know, empowered me in so many ways and mark and taught me so much in market research, but she actually, we set up a phone center where we actually doing outbound survey calls to people back when people would answer their phones and come in and do research over the phone. And she basically said, Go set up a call center. And so everything from identifying the technology and the software that we're going to use from hiring the employees to working with our existing Contact centres to get space to use everything I just kind of she just said go do and I did. And so I really just enjoyed, like devoting myself to, to projects and to work that ultimately was just really, I think meaningful not only for the company, but but for me.

Marc Gutman 16:19

Yeah. So what did the trajectory of that of that career at Spiegel look like? Did you stay there long?

Denise Lee Yohn 16:25

Oh, no, I was there for probably a couple of years. And the story goes that I was dating a guy I met in college. He was actually a couple years younger than me. And so and so, you know, fortunately, I got a job in Chicago and he was still at Northwestern. And so we continue to date. And yeah, like so the story goes that he was applying to grad school. He asked me to marry him. I said, Yes. And then he said, Oh, great, because we're going to move to San Diego. Oh, okay. And you know, back then my whole life had been the Midwest and I thought, California, all the people out there, they're just fruits and nuts. I'm not gonna go there. But I had made the commitment to my husband. So we packed up and moved out to San Diego and I got another consumer research job at jack in the box restaurants.

Marc Gutman 17:20

Jack In the Box restaurants and so that's, that's awesome. And you go out to San Diego that must have been, First of all, quite a change. I mean, I don't know how much you know about me. But I had a very similar kind of path. I went to school University of Michigan and ended up in Los Angeles for a while and it was awesome. What is also a big shock, right? You know, it was it was very different. You're in San Diego and you're working at jack in the box and what's going on there for you from a from a career in a brand standpoint.

Denise Lee Yohn 17:47

Yeah, yeah. So I started out in consumer research, then became a product manager role. My role was to introduce new products, essentially new menu items I introduced for different groups. And sandwiches at the time that was the product manager. And then eventually it took over, went back into the research group and headed up research analytics for the company. What was really formative about that time at Jack in the Box is some of your listeners may recall, there was a foodborne illness crisis that happened at jack in the box. A few of few people ate our burgers and died and a lot got really sick. And so overnight our business went from kind of booming and growing to like dying basically. And for about maybe a year, maybe a little over a year. We tried everything to resurrect our business. Practice giving away our food for free investing tons and advertising etc. And nothing would nothing really would jumpstart the business and then the head of Mark calm at the time, hired chiat day to advertise As an agency in Los Angeles, who is responsible for behind the foot for many commercial famous commercials in 1984, commercials from Apple, the Taco Bell, little yo quiero, Taco Bell dog, all these really famous ads, and they introduced the jack CEO character, which is still around today. At the time when they introduced the this character. You know, they had done a bunch of research to understand how people felt about the business. And jack represented, like this leadership of the company, even though he was just like, you know, his big clown ball head. And he's obviously a kind of a fictional character. At the time he represented someone who was taking care of the business he was watching out for the customer and making sure that they were going to be safe and taking care of a jack in the box. And as soon as we launched the campaign, With jack, our business pretty much turned around overnight, the promotions that we had tried before the campaign which had utterly failed, once we did them after the campaign were very successful. And that caught me so interested in how powerful advertising and campaigns and a character and character that was really based in strategy could the kind of impact it would have on a brand. So when it came time for my husband to go to grad school, to post grad, to do his post grad work, he was kind of looking at some options, and it looked like he was going to end up in New York and I said, great, I'm going to go work for an advertising agency on Madison Avenue. And that's basically what I did. It wasn't on Madison Avenue, but it was definitely in New York agency had a great experience. They're working on the Burger King. So definitely have a lot of fast food in my background. But, you know, just kind of it was an interesting journey from kind of observing how powerful advertising would be to then working in an agency and understanding how you develop insights. How do you work with creatives to come up with, you know, campaigns and strategies that can really impact the business. It was a great experience.

Marc Gutman 21:20

Thank you for sharing that you and I are so remember the jack as the CEO campaign. It was so just irreverent and smart and catchy. It was like almost impossible not to love them and like them. Remember, Evan was driving around with those little jack heads on their antenna? Oh, yeah. All over. Yeah. And I By the way, I have a dirty secret. I love to jack in the box tacos very late at night when I was living in Los Angeles. So if you had anything to do with those,

Denise Lee Yohn 21:49

My secret is that I still love them. So now, I mean, there's something in me that that jack box taco. It calls to me.

Marc Gutman 22:00

They're unique and very special. But so when you first saw that, that jack is the CEO, did you really believe and think, Hey, this is gonna be awesome. Are you skeptical? Before it launched?

Denise Lee Yohn 22:12

I frankly, I was very skeptical. And I was also I kind of maybe was an agency hater, you know, frankly, because you know, like, Here I am, you know, heading a research and analytics and trying to develop all these great customer insights. And you know, here are these cool guys from Los Angeles with, you know, this stereotypical ad guy with the ponytail and the cool clothes and the hip attitude. And, you know, they come in and they had definitely done rigorous research. I'm not saying that they didn't, but they are they just came in and said, you know, forget everything. You know, here's what you need to do. And you know, at the time, the leadership of the company was so desperate, they were just like, okay, fine, we trust you. Let's do it. And I felt like, wait a minute, you know, doesn't it matter what I think and why You know, shouldn't we validate this and that we do our own research and we, you know, test different options. And I was just kind of, I don't even know skeptical is the right word. I was just kind of like, almost feeling a little put off by the whole process. But I soon became a believer once we saw those results.

Marc Gutman 23:19

Yeah, I mean, not very hard to be an agency hater sometimes, but they do. They do. They do have their place. And so, you know, I love your story. You're You're obviously super smart and talented. You're just you're working hard. You're making things happen. You go to New York, you're working at the ad agency, you're working on the Burger King account, and I want to ask him, you kind of brought this up a little bit, but you're a woman of Asian American heritage. I mean, was it tough?

Denise Lee Yohn 23:47

Looking back, I definitely can see times when I was not respected or taken seriously whether because I was a woman or because I was an Asian American. I would say that growing up in the Midwest, I definitely faced experience racism and discrimination. I remember, you know, getting made fun of and, but at the time, I think culturally, as well as, you know, how my parents raised me, and also just kind of the Chinese American, like, ethos or whatever, I always felt like, I was like, I, there was something wrong with me. So instead of like, you know, the person who is, you know, calling me names, because I'm Chinese, and me thinking that they're bad, I was kind of like feeling very badly about myself. And I have to say that I've only really come to this realization in the last six months or even last three months since all the awareness about racial inequity and racism in this country, and I've really now kind of thought about and I'm like, you know what, I really, I was discriminated against but I didn't think I didn't think to think I needed to put These people in their place, I was kinda like, there's something wrong with me that have to be different. So I really tried to assimilate as much as possible. That's what my parents were very much into. And so in some ways, I kind of was just like, I just need to blend in and kind of, you know, work as hard as I can. And if I do great work, it'll get recognized. And I think you'll Fortunately, I was I ended up in situations where that did happen. But I know that a lot of people aren't as fortunate. And they end up working really hard, but not really getting anywhere. So do you have so that's a long answer to a question. Yes, it was hard. But I think some of it was probably, I put I put on myself.

Marc Gutman 25:41

Yeah, and I'm just hearing a little bit in shock thinking about how difficult that must have been to think like, Well, you know, I'm the problem, you know, and the way people are acting is the norm. And if I speak up, it's just going to create problems and either at the very base level people won't like In a more extreme people, I mean, it becomes unsafe or more extreme level becomes unsafe or, or, you know, at a variety of levels, whether that's directly like from a physical standpoint or even just like, Hey, I might lose my job, you know, and, and I just thinking about that for you. I mean, it must have been extremely difficult, but you were able to push through and, you know, what do you think, what do you attribute that to? I mean, now that you've, you say, you've just recently had some awareness? I think it sounds like you've been meditating on this idea a little bit like, how do you think you were able to push through because certainly there were there were obstacles in the way,

Denise Lee Yohn 26:37

Right. I owe it to my faith. So I'm a person of faith. And I came to that phase around the same time that I started my professional career. And I think that having having a belief in God and knowing that God has a purpose for my life enables me enabled me and Today continues to enable me to derive my identity from my relationship with God, and not my work or my work product or what other people think about my work. Now, that's not to say that, you know, I don't care about, you know, producing results or getting accolades, I'm human. And so it is important for people to respect and admire me or whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, but I think that fundamentally, I am secure and who I am, I'm secure in why I'm here, I'm secure, and what good I need to be doing through my work. And so I think because of that, you know, some of the things that may have held me back or would would maybe be more hurtful to other people just haven't hasn't been as much of an issue for me.

Marc Gutman 27:51

And so how did you come to, to this, this relationship with your faith and it becoming such a driver in your life?

Denise Lee Yohn 27:58

Yeah, well, you grew up going to church all the time. But you know, the church I went to, frankly, was just all the people there were either, you know, old ladies really nice old, old ladies or families where the woman didn't work outside of the home. And so it was very kind of traditional and not not, there were no real role models for me as someone who was interested in work and interested in developing and developing a career. So when in my first year working at Spiegel, one of my co workers invited me to his church and ended up being this awesome experience where I saw all these people who were very close to me seemed very successful in their careers but who were loving God and getting you know, like I said, kind of their identity and their center in him. And I thought, okay, maybe maybe this thing really is for me after all, you know, is this It's been a long journey. So like as a gift that was, what, almost 25 years ago, I think that you know, what has, I continue to learn more and more about God's vision for me, and the impact that he wants to make through me. And that continues to be kind of a driver and both a driver and a compass, you know, so it's kind of a motivator, but that's also allowing him to shape my attitudes and my decisions and ultimately, the work that I do. Did I answer questions or thinking about it much?

Marc Gutman 29:38

I think you're close. I mean, I got it. I got another one. You know, I just I do find it really fascinating. And probably because faith wasn't a huge driver in my life. And I think you know, and when it was, you know, I had a Jewish father and a mother who was Protestant and so I was always like, kind of confused more or less, you know, and, and I didn't know which side I did not know what side of the fence I felt. But, you know, I think about for you, Was this something that was an asset for your your career? Or was it something you kind of kept a little on the on the down low? Or was it something that really helped, you know, fuel your relationships within the business world? And that was a part of, of your career as you as you were building that career?

Denise Lee Yohn 30:21

Yeah, that is, that is such a good question, Mark, because I have to confess that for many years, I was in the closet about being a Christian. It was I didn't want anyone to know, get it out, did not talk about it at all. I think that's because, you know, number one, there are a lot of negative perceptions about Christians, some of them well deserved, but just in general, there's a lot of negativity. And number two, I always kind of got the perception that other people thought that people of faith were maybe less intelligent, you know, just less thoughtful, less worthy of respect and and i don't know whether that's true or not, but I kind of just got the senses and and you know, I'm I really wanted to establish myself as you know this quote unquote expert you know. So for a long time, I just didn't talk about my faith at all. And it's really probably been only in the last few years that I've become much more open about it. And in fact, if you had asked me five years ago, to do this interview, we would not be talking about this, I guarantee you, I would have just kind of deflected and just maintain this conversation about passion for brands, without linking that to my identity and what I think the purpose of my life is. So it's a relatively new thing for me to share. But I've come to realize that, you know, people want to know me. They don't want to know they don't want to be they don't want this like facade or image to be in the, in the kind of a mediator for who I am. And so I've tried to be much more transparent about my beliefs and, and my faith and so that just kind of been part of that revealing. And it's been really rewarding. I don't think anyone that I've ever, you know, shared about, you know, this has kind of been my journey has had a negative reaction or if they have, they haven't had it in front of me. I think a lot of people enjoy talking about what their spiritual backgrounds were and how how they were raised and how that impacts how, you know, what they what they believe in now. And I think that, you know, ultimately, part of my identity is to really be as a servant to serve other people. And so, in when I, when I kind of was sharing that with people, I think people appreciate that and know that I'm not trying to push my face on them. I'm not trying to evangelize or whatever. But I'm really trying to understand, you know, how can I help you? How can I serve you? How can we do great things together that we both really love them and produce something really cool. It's been it's been affirming.

Marc Gutman 33:02

I want to thank you for showing up as your as your authentic self. I appreciate that. It's nice to hear about this episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve, so that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might Want to learn more about reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. So you are in New York City and you're working at the ad agency, but where are you in your career now? I mean, are you I don't know the right way to say this. Are you kind of just saying like a worker bee? Are you still just kind of in the trenches like doing your thing? Are you starting to get notoriety as a branding expert, like, like, what's going on for you in New York City?

Denise Lee Yohn 34:34

Yeah, well, um, you know, the first agency I worked for in New York was Ahmadi porcelain toss and Lynn toss had been like this huge agency. So it was a huge agency and I was definitely just kind of like a small fish in a very big pond, just worker bee. But then I had the opportunity to go be like the sole account planner. So an account planner is the person who's kind of responsible for the strategy. The To account to head up and be the kind of driver of strategy at a smaller agency, Grace and Rothschild and now this agency was small, but it was definitely had big impact. It worked on the Land Rover campaign, Land Rover business for many years and came out with all of the kind of iconic Land Rover advertising as well as other business. And it was kind of there where I ended up being kind of a bigger fish in a smaller pond. And I felt like I could really have more impact and influence on the creative work and influence on the client and their strategies. So you know, there was kind of this more development of, Hey, I have something of value to offer. I think when I went to that agency, and then Sony electronics came and recruited me out of that small agency to go head up their first ever brand office in the US. You know, at the time, Sony was it was kind of their heydays, it was like, they were people bought the products paid tons of money for them. Everyone thought that Sony's products were like the coolest and latest technology. And but they've never had anyone to work on their brand, which is kind of strange and we can get into that. But anyway, so once I went to Sony then I felt like that was an astronomic affirmation that, yes, I do have I'm developing expertise. And at the same time, the experience of Sony taught me so much about kind of the internal operationalization of your brand and the engagement of your stakeholders and all of the stuff that I work on now really came to me as part of my Sony experience. So it was just a great both development opportunity as well as I think, an establishment of me as a brand strategist. Yeah, and that's

Marc Gutman 36:49

Like a huge leap. So you know, you're working at this, you know, other agency, Jason rock Rothschild and cool agency doing some cool work, but to go ahead and A brand like Sony. I mean, we scared.

Denise Lee Yohn 37:03

Definitely. Um, but you know what, like, I think it's a little bit of imposter syndrome and particularly for female imposter syndrome that, you know, like, I remember thinking do these people know who I am and what they're hiring, but the mere fact that they had faith in me and that they, you know, saw something in me. And then I had a, you know, great immediate manager as well as the kind of Chief Marketing Officer. Both of them were just terrific role models and taught me so much and I think that whatever fear or self doubt I had, just was, it was quickly addressed by how much confidence they had in me.

Marc Gutman 37:49

And so when did that, that tenure at Sony look like, you know, would you accomplish and why did you ultimately leave?

Denise Lee Yohn 37:56

Yeah, yeah. So um, I was there for about five or six Yours in the first three were amazing. I was working for this great cmo and even the president of the company at the time really believed in brand building. And actually, I should say that, you know, when I first started Sony was when they when they first started to see some sort of softness in their business. And fortunately, the CMO and the president at the time had the foresight to say, you know what, we need to reinvigorate our brand. But we're not going to do that by just creating a huge brand campaign, we're actually going to turn our focus internally and make sure that everyone inside the organization share shared one common understanding of what Sony needed to become, how it needed to evolve, what were the values and the vision that it needs to embrace in order to move forward. And so for the first three years, that's all I worked on. And we created this, this program called been Sony, where we engage everyone throughout the company, on what the Sony brand was and how each person in the organization could interpret Reinforce and nurture that understanding. But there's always a but and that is that within the five years that I was at the company, there were I had, I think it's like five different bosses and three different presidents or vice versa three bosses, and there was tons of turnover. And this great cmo that, that I worked for last and what I was working on all sudden just didn't wasn't important anymore. And so, after a year, a few more years of me, banging my head against the wall. In fact, I always say there's still bruises on my forehead from the head. You know, just trying to kind of move the organization forward in the direction I thought it needed to be. I was like, Okay, I'm done. I'm going to leave Sony. I should have mentioned that. Midway through my time at Sony, I went from working in their new jersey office, they relocated me back to San Diego, which at the at that time, I loved I feel I have I have loved sandesh fall in love with San Diego wanted to get back there. That was perfect. The problem with San Diego is though, though, is that there are not a lot of consumer brands based there. And so there are not a lot of great consumer marketing jobs. And in fact, I don't say this to brag, but I think I probably had the best consumer marketing job in San Diego was heading a brand new strategy for Sony. And so here I am trying to look for another job. And it's like, it's crazy, you know. So that's when you thanks to, you know, encouragement from others who said, you know, you would actually be a really good, independent advisor, I decided I was going to resign my job and start my own consulting practice. And so that's what I did. Back in 2004.

Marc Gutman 40:45

Yeah, and then we're back to where I believe your your father is thinking, What are you doing,

Denise Lee Yohn 40:50

Right? Exactly, yes.

Marc Gutman 40:53

Yeah. And so he's scared for you. He's terrified like what you had enough belief in yourself to do that, like, what was calling to you to be independent? What what Hadn't you done? or Why did you need to do that?

Denise Lee Yohn 41:08

Mm-hm. Well, um, I probably shouldn't say this because the people in corporate America went like this. But Sony sponsored me to go to a leadership development program in my last year with the company. And one of the things that the the founder of this development program, she had the same that she said, some jobs are too small for some spirits. And it was just this idea that, you know, if you have like, a passion and a drive, to do something in your work, and your job is not allowing you to do it, you need to go get another job, or you need to go do something else. And I realized that probably, you know, the best way for me to do this was going to be on my own. I don't have to say that. For the first. first couple years of me being out on my own. I always thought Oh, you know what? If this doesn't work out, I can just go back and get another corporate job. So it wasn't like I was completely committed to it. But I did think that I could have a lot more impact on a lot more companies, if I were out on my own than working in one company, and dealing with all of the, you know, setbacks and disappointments that I had at Sony.

Marc Gutman 42:21

So what was the plan? Like who was your first customer?

Denise Lee Yohn 42:24

Um, you know, I always tell people who are going to you're thinking about going leaving corporate and owning and starting their own business, that your customers your clients will not be the people you think they will be. And so you'll I thought, Oh, no, all these people that I've met through Sony, of course, they're going to have me you know, come and consult for them. And, and no one did I, I want to say that actually, in an advertising agency, might have been my first client, and the only reason why they hired me to work with them as because they were pitching a piece of business to that CMO. That I had worked for at Sony and wanted to know everything about him and his philosophy about brand building, etc. So they hired me just tell them that I think that might have been my first consulting gig. But what ended up happening is I, I just would do a lot of business development and a lot of networking I recontacted tons of people. And one of a client that ended up being a really great client for a couple years was Vf Corp. They own a lot of brands from The North Face to Eagle Creek. And I had met a guy who worked for Vf at a conference, you know, several years before I left Sony and when I left Sony I recontact them and said, Hey, you know, just wanna let you know I'm on my own. He ended up bringing me into that organization. And because the I've had all these different brands, I was able to work on multiple projects for multiple brands. So that really just kind of established me but I have to confess that this guy who got me into the company. If I had run into him on the street, I don't think I would have recognized him because I like I said I'd met him at a conference several years ago. I just reached out to him because kind of in my networking and he ended up being such a great advocate for me, I ended up we ended up reconnecting in person. So now I just want to know what it looks like it and we have a friendship but you know, that's what I mean by like your business is going to is not going to come from where you think it is. It's going to come from the most surprising places. And I think that's in part because when you are well known in one way, it's really hard for people to then think of you in a different way. And so everyone who had known me as this kind of brand and strategy person at Sony couldn't see me working on like, Nautica the or Nautica jeans. You know, they just couldn't make that leap and they couldn't see me actually developing a whole kind of business and brand plan because they see me in this very narrow window. Where's people Who didn't know me as that? Only Saw that? Yeah, I used to have a brand new strategy for Sony. They're like, okay, we believe that you can do that. And so I think that's why different people and hiring, that it. Does that make sense?

Marc Gutman 45:12

Yeah, totally. And it's really interesting. And I'm just thinking, you know, we're, I'm very familiar with Vf. You know, they've relocated their headquarters to Denver. I personally know a lot of people who work they're very kind of outdoorsy, cool brand. And so, just thinking about how you got in there, what a What a great story. I mean, not an easy company to land is is your first client and you start building up your consultancy, and then what happens?

Denise Lee Yohn 45:36

Yeah, and then, um, through the church that I was attending at the time, we put on this program where we did all these different assessments. So we did the Myers Briggs assessment, we did the Strengthsfinder assessment. We also did like the spiritual gifts assessment, which is based on the biblical teaching that different people are gifted in different ways. Anyway, I did all these assessments and I realized that What I really wanted to do, and really what I was built for was to be kind of, you know, again, I hate these tribes are kind of more of like a thought leader and a speaker, you know. So instead of just doing consulting projects, I really kind of realize that what was the best fit for me was to be a speaker and a writer, kind of getting my ideas and doing research and then getting my ideas out to as many people as possible. So I started kind of thinking, Okay, well, how do I become a speaker and granted, you know, as a consultant, I would go to conferences and speak for business development purposes, but you know, I will be speaking for free whereas, I wanted to become a professional speaker, you know, and I, in my research on that, I realized that I needed to have a book, which is kind of crazy. It's just this weird thing. I don't know if you found this to be the case, Marc. But, you know, just somehow when you have a book because then people think they know something worth While listening to I needed to write a book, and I tried for several years to write a book I had put away at one point, I talked with a publisher who said, You've got a great marketing platform, you know, because I obviously I wrote this book proposal about how I was going to promote the book. She said, You've got this great marketing platform, but you don't have the content of the book yet. So I put it away for a while. It's like, Okay, great, I'm just going to be a consultant, whatever. And then I just could not let go of this drive to be a speaker. So and I also ended up connecting with an editor, who I just thought would really help me write the book I needed to, and that's where What Great Brands Do came and from so What Great Brands Do came out in 2014. And so since like probably 2013, I've really been building this business as a keynote speaker, more and more, such that I've only taken a few consulting clients that even just a couple of consulting clients or engagements a year, and most of my time is spent speaking.

Marc Gutman 48:08

Yeah. And so that's that's a great segue. So So what do great brands do?

Denise Lee Yohn 48:15

Well, I do have these seven principles that separate the best from the rest mark in my book. But, but the number one thing, and the very first chapter of what great brands do is great brands start inside, meaning that great brands aren't built by their external communications and their logos and you know, all that stuff. They're built by cultivating a strong brand led culture inside the organization. And if you are able to articulate an overarching purpose and core values that not only motivate customers, but also motivated employees, then you can build this this brand that has So much impact and so much authenticity and so much integrity. And so then just to kind of close the loop on this idea of of starting and so that's how I ended up writing my most recent book fusion, how integrating brand and culture powers the world's greatest companies. Because the more I worked on brand building, I realized that idea of starting aside is something that more and more businesses need to know about. And so I ended up writing a book solely on that idea.

Marc Gutman 49:28

Yeah, and I agree, like, in my experience, that, you know, a lot of companies view those two things as mutually exclusive, when in fact, they're oftentimes especially like, you know, company like VF, where like, culture is the brand, you know, for a lot of those different brands that they own. You know, it is important to start inside and so what are some of the biggest sort of mistakes you're seeing from brands when they try to start, you know, building from the inside when it comes to purpose and values?

Denise Lee Yohn 49:57

Mm hmm. I would say the lack of leadership, responsibility for culture building is probably one of the biggest mistakes in the sense that, you know, you might hear like the CEO or you know, the leader of the company and kind of talk about we have, we have a great culture, we need to, you know, work on our culture, but they're not accepting responsibility for really shaping what that culture is, is or should be, and moving the organization towards it, I think that they there's often this sense, either a, our culture's just kind of kind of grow organically, just if I talk about it, it'll happen, you know, if I build this it will come, or B, that's HR's job. So I'm going to tell the HR folks you need to work on our culture and come back to me in six months or a year and tell me you know, report to me what progress is made, without really recognizing that, you know, there's so much in the way The organization is run, and the way the organization is designed. And all these different aspects of the employees experience, some of which do fall under HR responsibilities. A lot of it falls outside of that. All of these things shape your culture. And so I think there's just kind of this kind of a hands off approach to culture, which holds a lot of companies back.

Marc Gutman 51:23

Yeah, I think I think the the biggest red flag I heard when I asked one, so who owns the culture? The answer was everybody owns the culture. And I thought, No one owns the culture. And you're in trouble. You're in trouble. Yeah,

Denise Lee Yohn 51:40

I will say that it's true that, you know, everyone plays their part. And I was just talking to someone earlier today about how everyone does contribute to the culture. What if the leadership isn't driving that forward? Isn't setting the tone, setting the priorities and making sure that everyone in the organization understands what kind of cultural we're going after? Then? Yeah, you're right. No, no There's you're not going to make progress, you know? So it's kind of one of these things that, yes, there was. Yes, everyone is involved. But the leaders are responsible for, for championing championing it and leading it moving forward.

Marc Gutman 52:15

Yeah, absolutely. And so when it comes to brand, like, what are you most excited about right now? What are you seeing? And what are you excited about as we kind of enter a crazy world these days, something's a little different, and something that's being reshaped and remade and a lot of ways, both with the diversity and equity issues we're seeing as well as with COVID. I mean, there's a lot going on that that's putting a lot of pressure on brands, but I also think is impacting how we as consumers feel about brands.

Denise Lee Yohn 52:44

Yeah. So I would say two things and they're, they're probably related to some extent, but then they're both definitely a result of the current situation with the pandemic and and also the civil unrest. One is that I think there's elevated expectations on brands, from their customers and from the media and kind of other stakeholders that these brands need to be. I wouldn't even call like responsible corporate citizens, they need to be creating value for their communities, and for the customers and for the world, that you're part of it is a real positive impact there. And because people have the visibility to see kind of what these companies are doing now, it's not enough for a company just to kind of do some social responsibility effort off to the side. I think there's an expectation that the way that you run your business needs to create shared value value that everyone who's involved in business can share that actually elevates your communities elevates your employees elevates your customers elevates the world. So I think that that's one trend or one development that I think if companies rise up and step up to the challenge, we will see businesses dramatically changed for the better. And then the other is that the employee experience is been completely disrupted. In fact, I just released an article in Forbes about this, that it's, it's you cannot deny that what your employees are experiencing, or what your employees need. And what they expect in and kind of what they're experiencing now has not just changed dramatically over the last few months. And that therefore, you as a leader need to redesign your employee experience. You know, you can't rely on people coming to your campus. And kind of you know, soaking in the culture through the ISA you know, in the ethos is something that just kind of happens, which it never did in the past, but it definitely makes it clear that you can't be thinking about your culture in terms of space or place and time, but you need to be thinking about engaging every one of your employees and their, you know, individual needs and in their individual context. And so just the fact that you can't ignore that and that business leaders are going to have to address that I'm excited about because I think the way that companies engage their employees could again, be completely different. And I think if companies really stepped into that opportunity, both the businesses as well as the people will be, will be so much better. And that

Marc Gutman 55:32

Sounds like a world I want to be a part of, you know, it sounds like not only are we creating commerce and value in companies, but we're creating more value in the world.

Denise Lee Yohn 55:41

Yes. And, and, and, and, you know, there's not this kind of in we're inside the organization outside the organization kind of divide, you know, but like it's the company really views, everyone who's involved in their businesses as a stakeholder and how can we create value and how can we have a positive impact on All of these groups,

Marc Gutman 56:01

Denise, tell me about flying a helicopter.

Denise Lee Yohn 56:07

Oh, so that was on my bucket list. And so last year, I decided, Okay, I'm going to do this. So I took flight lessons for about nine months. And it is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, Mark. And I think I've done some hard things in my life. But just and I think that I'm pretty coordinated. You know, growing up as a, as a ballet dancer, I kind of feel like I have fairly good coordination. But the thing about a helicopter is that all four of your appendages, right arm, left arm and your two of your feet or legs are doing different things. You know, one is going back and forth, you know, side and the other is going side to side and your feet are steering. And it's not the kind of thing like a plant like a fixed wing aircraft, nor like a car where you could take your hands off the controls and you would still basically kind of go in the same direction unless something dramatic happens, you know, like, every moment every second that you are in that in the cockpit, you are making micro adjustments just to keep the helicopter afloat. And like I said it was, it was the most difficult thing. All I remember after several lessons I asked my flight instructor I'm like, you know, do you ever have people who you just don't think are ever going to get this? basically asking them Do you think I should just give up you know, and, and fortunately, he was nice enough to be like, No, you know, you really, it just takes time. He said, there will be a moment when have a quick and you'll be able to do it. And so I ended up getting to that moment I ended up doing my first solo flight. And it was just an extraordinary feeling. And I think something that I was really proud of that I was able to do

Marc Gutman 57:57

Why was that important to you to learn about? Fly helicopter.

Denise Lee Yohn 58:01

Well, I mean it was really stupid in a way because I had gone to Hawaii and we had gone on this awesome helicopter ride where they took us I was on I can't remember what Island it was. We basically like flew straight up those flew straight into there like we were looking I level at the top of the waterfall and then we basically went straight down and landed at the foot of the waterfall got out to Pune whoever and then we you know left we went straight up and then we you know went around or whatever and I thought that is the coolest thing in the world. I want to be able to do that. I just, it was just kind of one of those things are just, it just was such a memorable experience. And it is very much unlike flying because you know, like you like like I travel so much again on a plane I don't even think about you know what's involved that we're taxiing down the runway and then taking off at you know, these ginormous speeds in order to be Get a float. You know, the helicopter experience is so different. And I just felt like I want to do that. And little did I know how hard it was a little bit. I know how expensive it is. But yeah, like I said, I was just so happy that I was able to do it.

Marc Gutman 59:18

Denise, we thank you for sharing that as we end the get to the end of the interview here. You know, if you ran into your eight year old self, that little Denise in St. Louis and her ballet outfit her tutu, what do you think she'd say if she saw you today?

Denise Lee Yohn 59:36

Wow. I would think that she would be kind of proud and like, excited about what I was able to accomplish. At the same time, I think that she would, if she knew what I had gone through in the time in the interim, she wouldn't know about like, you know, the, you know, some of the waste in my life. In terms of before I came to face and they're like the stupid thing that I did where I was just kind of wasting my talent and potential, and she would maybe think, gosh, she could have been even more Have you not, like made those mistakes? But I think overall I think that she would just yeah, I think that she would be like excited about what has happened

Marc Gutman 1:00:21

So where can these listeners find out more about you and get in contact with you if they have some questions about anything you share today?

Denise Lee Yohn 1:00:29

Oh Marc, thank you so much for asking. The best place to go is my website DeniseLeeYohn.com and it's really kind of a portal to everything. So there you can learn about me as a keynote speaker and watch my videos. You can access my social media accounts. You can access my all of the articles I write for the Harvard Business Review and Forbes and other outlets so you can access all those articles there as well as my blog and newsletter. So really, Denise Lee Yohn comm is the place to go to then, you know, engage in whatever way And I will say that I really enjoy connecting with new people just like this connection that you and I have now mark, I'm just so thankful that you know, through these different people that we know and different channels we can actually meet new people and develop new relationships and just grow as people. So please reach out to me, I would love to hear from you.

Marc Gutman 1:01:25

Fantastic, and I can vouch for Denise's newsletter. I love her emails. They're full of gold nuggets. So go ahead and sign up. I think it's a great resource. And, Denise, thank you so much for being on the show.

Denise Lee Yohn 1:01:36

Marc, Thank you. It's been great.

Marc Gutman 1:01:43

And that is Denise Lee Yohn. I loved her comment that people identify with brands, they get them that help them to identify themselves. Think about that one for a moment. And Denise, thank you for sharing Your story in an authentic and vulnerable way. I so appreciate that you showed up as you are and didn't hold anything back. I'll say back to you what you said in our interview, you make me want to be better. And we'll make sure to link to all things Denise Lee Yohn in the show notes, so please check out all the free resources she makes available. Thank you again to Denise Lee Yohn. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 038: Steve Savage | 1908 Brands | A Legacy of Environmentalism

Today we go back to environmentalist, Steve Savage’s roots (pun intended) as we explore the windows that were opened for Steve to form Eco-Products and 1908 Brands. Steve grew up with a lifelong passion for the environment that sprouted when recycling at a young age with his dad. That passion truly blossomed on a life-changing 14er hike (mountain peak exceeding 14,000 feet) where Steve realized the wondrous beauty of nature and vowed to protect it.  Even so, Steve’s path wasn’t always as clear as you’d think. It was a winding road of competitive tennis, international finance, and a couple of trips to Russia that finally brought Steve back to helping his dad with Eco-Products, a company that sold all kinds of environmental products from building materials to janitorial supplies. Join us as we discover how both Eco-Products and 1908 Brands identified their windows of opportunity and entered them head-on to find success in the wake of the 2008 recession and a pandemic, respectively. And afterward, let’s reflect. What does your window look like?

In this episode, you'll learn:

• The story of 1908 Brands and its heritage of environmental responsibility, including Steve Savage’s great-great-uncle, William Kent’s donation of what was later known as the Muir Woods National Monument
• The environmental comparison of US homes to European homes and how 1908 Brands pledges to change that
• Steve’s move from Chicago to Boulder when he was 12 years old and why he loved it
• How Steve’s experience hiking the Chicago Basin 14ers at 14 years old transcended his appreciation for the outdoors and helped him realize his calling to become an environmentalist
• Steve’s change of heart from playing tennis for the University of Kansas to studying Russian for a corporate future in international finance 
• There are three arrows in a recycling loop. In 1990, Steve and his dad sought to fulfill the third arrow with Eco-Products by taking remanufactured recycled products back into the market.
• The beginnings of Steve and his dad building Eco-products and its steady growth year by year through visits to schools, churches, and greek life
• Why a new resin on the market called polylactic acid in 2006 became a turning point for Eco-Products
• The proverbial rocketship path of how Eco-Products went from being “not-so-sexy” to financially booming during the 2008 recession
• Pactiv’s vicious strategy to knock out Eco-Products as a competitor and how that led to selling the company to Waddington North America in 2012
• Steve’s drive to keep Boulder Clean alive by having his hands in “another cookie jar”, aka 1908 Brands
• The “window” of the pandemic allowing for 1908 Brands to flourish through their plant-based disinfectant, which is EPA registered effective against SARS-CoV-2

Resources

1908 Brands 1908 Brands Instagram 1908 Brands LinkedIn 1908 Brands Facebook Steve Savage’s LinkedIn Steve Savage’s Instagram Steve Savage’s Facebook Boulder Clean Plant-Based Disinfectant

Quotes

[10:17] That is how I was brought up, is recycling. For me to put a can in a trash can is like, the strangest thing in the world. It just doesn't go there. [13:10] The sidewalk in the sky drops about 2000 feet on both sides, there's a cross breeze…And really, the power of that situation is really what kind of changed my life. Ever since then, I've been an environmentalist. [34:07] I was selling environmental products. I felt like I was making a difference. But from a personal and financial perspective, there was doubt, but I would have to say once that window opened, and we jumped through, I mean, it was crazy how that took off. 

Podcast Transcript

Steve Savage 0:02 We were a small not so sexy business for 16 years. I mean, there's a lot, you know, I wasn't paying myself a lot, you know, there's a lot of doubt and, you know, where's this going? And, you know, should I be doing this? Am I ever going to provide for my family like I want to? So yeah, I've been tell then there was a lot of doubt. And, you know, I liked what I was doing. I was selling environmental products. I was, you know, I felt like I was making a difference, but from a personal and financial perspective. Now, there was doubt, but I would have to say once that window open and we jumped through. I mean, it was crazy. How that took off. Marc Gutman 0:46 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstory. And I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a kid from Chicago moved to Boulder, Colorado, and built an eco Empire built on the backbone of compostable disposable cups. All right. All right. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us continue to produce this show. Today's episode, we're talking to Steve Savage, cool name, right? Well, Steve is the President and CEO of 1908 brands. And Steve is best known for his previous company eco products, which sees the window of opportunity when they saw that compostable cups made of corn resin You heard that right corner isn't going to be a thing. Odds are if you travel or buy just about anything in a plastic cup cold coffee smoothies draught beer soda. Your lips have touched Steve's cups. Well, that wasn't supposed to sound as weird as it just did. But you get what I mean. Today Steve savage is the founder and CEO of 1908 brands, a family of brands that develops natural and trusted products for healthier home and planet. 90 no eight brands currently consists of six brands, Boulder Clean, Schultz's Thrive Tribe, Three Bears, Pasta Jay's, and Bundle Organics. I'm sure you've seen some of these on your local store shelves nationwide. Steve is a committed conservationist and entrepreneur who is continually searching for new ways to offer effective innovative and affordable green products. in just a bit. We'll hear his pivotal story about how he came to devote his life to building businesses based on preserving the environment. So enough of me, let's get to it. This is his story. So Steve, thank you for joining us here on the baby got backstory podcast. You are currently the president and CEO of 1908 brands. What is 1908 brands? Steve Savage 3:29 Yeah, that's a great question Marc. 1908 brands is a story that comes from my great uncle. And in 1908, he lived in the Bay Area and came across 300 acres of redwood trees that were about to be harvested or replacement of the city of San Francisco that had a fire in 1907. And William can't my great great uncle didn't want those bread. trees to be harvested. So he bought that land out from the lumber companies. And to save it, there was a new Antiquities Act by the US government where you could donate land under that Antiquities Act and save it from being harvested. And so he worked with Teddy Roosevelt. There's some great letters on our website between Teddy Roosevelt and William Kent, on this donation, and that happened in early 1908. And that 300 acres of redwood trees is now called the John Muir national woods. And if you read the letters, it's just an amazing story about you know, Teddy Roosevelt wanting the name of the William Kent national woods and William Kent said no, I have five Husky boys all with the middle name can't if they can't keep the name alive. You know, so be it. Please name it after my good friend and environmental environmentalist John Muir. So yeah, that's how the John Muir national woods, still there today beautiful spot. I try to go there at least once a year. And we're over 110 years, that's just been a national treasure. And, you know, we felt like that story of environmental gifting. Environmental Stewardship was an amazing story to build a company and you know, our culture and principles around. Marc Gutman 5:31 Well, that's a pretty famous tract of land. I mean, you know, the John Muir Woods is well known, I had no idea that that started the 1908 brands. And so what does 1908 brands do as a business today? Steve Savage 5:43 So 1908 brands is the parent company to what is going to be eventually, you know, a dozen, maybe two dozen brands and we really want to change the products that are in people's homes can be you know, 1908 brands started with boulder clean, which is a lineup plant-based cleaners and detergents. We also created a product called the CompoKeeper, which is a fancy trash can for food storage that eliminates odor and fruit flies. That brand has sold to a company called rev-a-shelf. Then we have also gotten into food brands. So we have five food brands right now and they're all in, you know, natural food space. And, you know, we leverage our resources and our relationships to try to make these particular brands successful. So right now we have six brands, and they're everything from non food to food brands. Marc Gutman 6:42 When you say you want to change the products of people's homes, what's wrong with the products in people's homes? Why do they need changing? Steve Savage 6:49 Well, I'm, you know, in the US homes, you know, I like to compare to Europe, I mean, in Europe, products and the homes are just healthier. They're warm. environmentally sustainable. They've been built with sustainability in mind, you can reuse the containers, you can reuse the packaging. Now, these are a lot of concepts that 19 white brands wants to bring into the US homes right now. Us products are kind of throwaway items. Now the average us consumer goes through, I forget the status somewhere around 20 tons of trash per year. It's just a ridiculous number products that they eat. The indoor air quality in our homes are three times more toxic than European home. So I mean, it's just, there's so many changes provide good solutions to make. make that easier. Yeah. And Marc Gutman 7:44 you started off our conversation talking a bit about your uncle and his act to to preserve 300 acres of forest. You know, I know that you grew up in Boulder, Colorado, but what was young Steve like, you know, let's go back to back where were you? Like when you're eight, were you an environmentalist and into the protecting the environment at that time? Steve Savage 8:05 Right. So a little bit, and I mostly grew up in Boulder. I actually lived in Chicago till I was 12. My two older sisters went out to the University of Colorado. And as my dad would visit them in Boulder, Colorado, he fell in love with Boulder. So, when I was 12, we moved to Boulder. Marc Gutman 8:25 Well, wait a second. What was that? Like? Like, dad just comes home. And he's like, we're moving. I mean, what did you think at the time? Steve Savage 8:32 Yeah. I remember being excited about it. Colorado. No, when you're from Chicago, and you're 12 years old. I mean, you know, the stereotype of Chicago. Colorado is pretty exciting. So I was excited about it. You know, when I first got here, you know, it was kind of tough and I missed my friends, but rapidly got into, you know, as already playing competitive tennis. You know, my dad would flood our backyard in Chicago. So I grew up playing hockey. So I got into sports pretty quick. And I look back and you know, so excited he made that move. love Boulder. And now a lot of people from Chicago have moved to Boulder and Colorado. So it was a big move, especially for me and my sisters. I mean, our family uprooted their home, and you know all their friends back in Chicago and, you know, follow them to Boulder So, especially my sister, Lisa, I mean, she was a freshman when we moved. She's like, Hey, why are you following me? But anyways, it was a big move for the family. But my dad even in Chicago. I mean, he was a recycler Marc Gutman 9:39 well then what did that look like then? Because like no one was a recycler then you know so yeah Chicago a recycler Tell me a little bit about him. What Where did what is his? I mean, it does sound and I don't want to put words in your mouth that this. There's like a legacy of environmentalism in your family but like so how does he become a recycler at that time and certainly in Chicago, it isn't easy. I have to imagine Steve Savage 10:00 Yeah, I mean, that was rare. I mean, I didn't really know that as a kid. But looking back at it and knowing now, I mean, it was a rare thing. But we used to go to a place we lived in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago. And we there is a recycling center. And that is how I was brought up is recycling. I mean, for me to put a, you know, a can in a trash can, is like, the strangest thing in the world. It just doesn't go there. And, you know, I've been brought up my entire life, thinking that way. And you know, when I really became an environmentalist, is a story when I was 14, so we had moved to Boulder, and he immediately got into climbing fourteeners. So my dad and I and others and some of his friends, some of his friends from Chicago would come out and we would knock off fourteeners Marc Gutman 10:53 really quickly you want to like describe what a 14 year is for those people that may be listening that don't know. Steve Savage 10:58 Okay, so um, fourteener there's 53 fourteeners in the United States, I think of the 5343 or 45 are in Colorado, the rest are in California, Oregon and Washington. So most of the fourteeners you know, we were knocking out in Colorado. He also went out, and I didn't go as right when I was 12. And I wasn't old enough to go and did Mount Rainier. I think that's technically in Washington. And, you know, he got me into climbing fourteeners there was one particular 14 or when I was 14, actually, it was a trip. We went to Durango, Colorado, and we took what's called the Silverton railroad that goes from Durango to Silverton it's one of the I think still is one of the original coal burning trains and halfway between Durango and Silverton a group have eight of us got off and stopped in the middle of nowhere. And we hiked eight miles up to what's called the ironically Chicago basin where the Twin Lakes are. And around. Twin Lakes are for fourteeners, Windham, sunlite, ulis and North ulis. And so we were knocking those off. its one of the most beautiful spots I've ever been in my life. And, you know, kind of going back I'm telling you this, the story that pretty much changed my life and I tell this story when I have won environmental award and so far because it really did change my life and how I see the outside world. But here we are at the Twin Lakes in knockout sunlight, your knockout wind. In our last day we're climbing ulis and we get to the top of ulis and between us and North ulis is there's a ridge and it's called sidewalk in the sky and going from ulis to North ulis across the sidewalk in the sky. I remember it's probably five feet wide, like a sidewalk. And if you walk down the sidewalk, obviously you aren't scared to death. But on sidewalk in the sky drops about 2000 feet on both sides, there's a cross breeze. So you're kind of down on all fours. And it's not really technical, but I mean, you got a maneuver up and down a few rocks. And really, that the power of that situation is really what kind of changed my life and ever since then, I mean, I've been an environmentalist. You know, my dad and I, you know, we started my first company go products, right when I was out of college. So I mean, really, from that time, I appreciated the outdoors. Right now I've climbed about 38 of the fourteeners continued climbing 14 years continue to get out into nature in any way I could. I've joined in a number of neat nature, nonprofits, protecting our natural resources. So that's kind of the story, my childhood and basically how I became a environmentalist. Yeah, let's Marc Gutman 14:07 go back to that trip. I mean, it's such an epic trip. I've known people to do it and ride the railroad, you hop off. And it's just one of these, like, quitessential adventures that, that that really is, you know, there's not a lot of those left and it's a really amazing trip. What was it about that? So you say you're at the side of the sky, you're looking down, you're on all fours, scurrying. Like, but But what about that made you say, like, hey, like, you know, because because a lot of us go out in the environment, myself included, we enjoy it. But we don't all come back saying, you know, what, we're going to devote our life to protecting the environment, we're going to devote our life to sustainability, we're going to devote, you know, put our money where our mouth is and feed our family based on these principles, which is about like the biggest commitment you can make. So granted at that time, you may or may not have known that that was that was your path, but what really was it about that experience? Made you say, hey, like like this is worth protecting? Steve Savage 15:03 Yeah, you know, it's really the days that led to being on the sidewalk in the sky. It was in June, the wild flowers were just unbelievable. There was some old mining caves that we could explore. It really was, you know, the whole trip was probably seven days was really probably my first trip where now a lot of these four teeners are day trips, right are one or two days. It was probably the first trip that I spent a full week up there at, you know, 12,000 feet, which was our base camp to hit those for 14 years. I mean, it really was giving away. Now obviously, we didn't have cell phones then but it was really getting away from the city. And everything that you knew, is probably what changed my life. You know why that particular trip, did it? But it was just the beauty of the place. The Chicago basin is just an Gorgeous area surrounded by these four fourteeners with the wild flowers. And yeah, I mean, I think all that is, you know, the sunsets eating, you know, your freeze dried food. It just it was just an amazing week. Marc Gutman 16:15 Yeah. And so you're 14 I think I think you said at the time, is that right? Or you're 12 or 14 at during that trip. Steve Savage 16:21 I moved to Colorado when I was 12. I was 14 on that trip. Marc Gutman 16:26 Cool. So you're growing up in Boulder, Colorado, which is, you know, undergone massive change in the last 2030 years. You know, I think, you know, most people at least when I was growing up my whole reference of Boulder Colorado was from Mork and Mindy sleepyhead college town. I mean, what was boulder like, at that time? When when you were going to high school and spending your formative teen Steve Savage 16:50 years? Yeah, I mean, it was much smaller. But and it was, you know, but it was always an outdoor athletic town. I mean, you had You know, the coors classic bicycle race, which was one of the biggest bicycle races. I mean, it was, you know, that was already happening the boulder boulder was already happening. So I mean, it was even back then known as kind of a mecca sports town. You know, even the 711 team, which included Eric Heiden, you know, stayed right down the street from us and my sisters got them to join us and join them and our hot tub, which was kind of entertaining but yeah, I mean, Boulder. It's always been an outdoor town still is, always brings the best athletes. So I mean, a lot has changed, but a lot of stayed the same as well. Marc Gutman 17:40 Yeah, and I imagine your dad at the very least had to be like, wow, like finally some people that like want to recycle and believe Yeah, same things I do. But like I you know, like, I know that you weren't out there being a crusader it at 14 like you were a teenager, you know, and you're growing up and you're doing your thing and you go off to college, you grow up in a college town. But where did you go to college? Did you stay in stay in town and go to Boulder? Steve Savage 18:04 I actually I went to the University of Kansas. I originally went there to play tennis I did in Chicago, I played pretty competitive tennis, actually played Andre Agassi in the Chicago open. When I was 11. He kicked my butt. But it was fun. I mean, I didn't. He wasn't Andre Agassi. At the time, he was just another player. Marc Gutman 18:28 He wasn't 11 with a full bleached mullet and tight shorts, Steve Savage 18:33 right. And I don't even really remember that closely. his haircut and so forth. I just know he was one of the best players in the country. But I do know that's always been something I've remembered was playing him But yeah, I went to University of Kansas to play tennis. I played for four months. I was not getting a scholarship and I was kind of tired of tennis and ended up loving the University of Kansas. Great kids. Great Midwest kids. Got my one into the business school got an economics degree, you know, was in and out in four years I ended up actually, hockey's my other love ended up playing club hockey there as well. Marc Gutman 19:12 Yeah. And so what was your plan? So you go to Kansas, you know, you think tennis might be a path for you and then realizing, you know, I think a lot of people have that. Certainly I did where you're like, Okay, you know, this is cool, but I want to go on to different things. I mean, you got a degree in Business and Economics and what would you think you were going to do with it at the time? Steve Savage 19:32 You know, I went on Semester at Sea, my second semester, junior year and I fell in love with some Russian Russian culture. I met some kids from Russia in 1989. So I graduated college in 1990. The Soviet Union was falling apart. I actually thought I was going to kind of study Russian got into into international finance, get a you know, a corporate job. Speaking In Russian and getting them as us businesses, I thought at the time we'd be moving into Russia. So I took Russia in my senior year. I still have these Russian friends actually meet up with them when we're in Europe the last couple years. But yeah, that's kind of why coming out of college I thought I was going to do got into Thunderbird, which is in Phoenix, which is kind of an international finance school. But it was really the June after college that my dad pitched this idea and have a business. Marc Gutman 20:37 Take Take me there. So like, like, do you remember that day? Steve Savage 20:40 Yeah. So he was following his environmental commitment. He was actually Chairman of the Board of eco cycle, which is our local recycling facility. And he had this business concept of starting a business is if you think of the recycle arrow There's three loops, right? There's three arrows, and they all kind of bend and they make a loop. And the first one is collection, which as we've talked about, you know, my family has always been doing forever. The second loop is manufacturing, but nobody was really doing the third loop, which is taking the remanufactured products and getting them back into the market. So my dad and I started this company called eco products in 1990. And basically, the company mission was, you know, to buy everything from recycled copy paper, and at that time, fax paper and legal pads and even you know, toilet paper made from recycled materials and paper towels and trash bags and so forth. And so we started distributing all these recycled materials and starting a business that again called eco products and now I would go to fraternities or sororities or preschools or Small businesses or the University of Colorado, say, Hey, I got some recycled goods Do you want to buy them? Marc Gutman 22:07 I'm not exciting at the time. Because it's, you know, like, I mean, when you were coming out of college and you think you're going to conquer the world and and I'd still love to hear like, I mean, does your dad sit you down? Is it like this like TV moment where you're fishing? And he's like, hey, son, you know, I've got this idea, like, like, how does that all go down? Steve Savage 22:22 We were on the back porch of our house. We're in a Hoa called Devil's thumb. So we, you know, we backed up to the mountains to the trails, and it was on our back porch. I mean, I remember it vividly. My cousin, David McIntyre was in conversation as well. He was getting his MBA as CEO. So it was really my dad and I and David MacIntyre that started eco products. And were you stoked to read is kind Marc Gutman 22:51 of like yeah, and my dad's got an idea, but not ready to really have a plan and maybe I'll maybe I'll sling some recycled trash can liners. Steve Savage 22:59 Yeah. I decided to put Thunderbird international finance degree on hold. I was actually going to went back to Russia that fall to travel with some of my friends and practice my Russian. I was still at the time probably thinking I was going to, you know, still be an international finance with a specialty in Russian. But I agreed. Yeah, I'll start this concept with you. Yeah, I mean, at the time, I wasn't thinking it would be that big of a company, but it was something to do. You know, it didn't pay me. But it was something to do. And so we started with it. And now we we have success. Marc Gutman 23:41 Like right away? I mean, like right away where people buying I have to imagine it was a hard, like, we all know startups are tough. Right. And I have to imagine it was a bit of a evangelical, kind of pushing the boulder uphill. Steve Savage 23:52 Yeah, situation. You know, I remember my first 10 case order. I mean, I would get I would get it for tourney or get a sorority or a church or preschool eventually I mean, they would call and we'd place orders at first we had chicken scratch them on, you know carbonless paper and you know computers were just kind of getting started then. But I mean, it kept me busy and it was a job and you know, out of college you're happy to have a job. You know, honestly for that summer was probably just buying time until I went back to Russia for two months. And then I was going to get my international finance but it grew and it kept us busy. I did go to Russia but I came back and decided I would stay with eco products and continue to grow it I mean, we went from a couple hundred thousand in revenue, the first year then 400,000 revenue then 600,000 revenue, it always grew. I felt good about the products I was selling the environmental characteristics of them and you know, I'm the company ended up after a few years You know, a couple million in revenue, we had about five trucks that drive around town. We had drivers and I was a boss. And I mean, it just grew slowly. And, you know, in about 2006, you know, when we were about a $5 million company, Marc Gutman 25:18 yeah, let me let me let me stop you there. And so as I understand it, so I mean, it was it was a long time, right. So yeah, I mean, if I'm, if I'm doing the math, you know, we don't have to, like get into specifics and how long but I mean, the company was a nice little business, but it I mean, and please, you know, if I'm, if I'm speaking out of turn, but it was nothing super sexy. It was like a nice business. It was doing its thing. Not super exciting, but then in 2006, and I think this is where you're going. You see an opportunity and what is that opportunity, Steve Savage 25:50 right? So by that point, we were doing all kinds of environmental products. We had environmental building materials and environmental office supplies environmental janitorial supplies, we Had cleaners made from non toxic chemicals trash bags made from recycled or were biodegradable. But in around 2005 2006, there is a new resin that was man factored by nature works, who is owned by Cargill. And it was a resonant you could make just compostable food service items. And it was called plla, otherwise known for poly lactic acid. And we were having, Marc Gutman 26:30 how is poly lactic acid created? Steve Savage 26:33 Yeah, yeah, we're having abnormal success in that part of our business. And the product was cool. As far as you know, you can make a plastic cup that you now see around the country, and you could brand it was made from plla, which was a derivative of corn. So it was from natural resources and also was compost So it would return to the earth and it took off we spent from oh six to 2008 working with various MIT us manufacturers you know, would you private label this for us because we weren't the first ones to do so Fabrica was always make already making a corn cup International Paper was already making a PL a line hot cup active was making the sugarcane plates and so forth. So we first went to these North American manufacturers and said, Hey, can you private label for us? One by one? They said no. Marc Gutman 27:35 And why do they say no? Steve Savage 27:37 Well, they had their own brand so fabric cow and their own brand. Names escaping me International Paper had their own brand called ego Taner pack. They've had their own brand called Earth choice and they just they didn't want to private label have some private label person competing against them in the market. Marc Gutman 27:59 This episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now, back to our show. Let's take a step back real quickly though. So like you have other products and there's this kind of new crazy thing, this corn cup. And if I remember the early versions of them, it wasn't perfect that there was some downsides, right? Like if you left it in your car, it might melt. Right? The resume itself was often created by an actual insect if I remember, which would mutate and do weird things. So like it was, it wasn't like this, like, like slam dunk or layup in terms of like, business opportunity, like how did you make that decision to see the market and say, You know what, like, I really think there's something here. Steve Savage 29:41 Right? Well, I mean, just, you know, I was at Hilton resorts and they said to same price, I can brand it environmental. And the quality is the same. I mean, where can I start so I mean, really, customer by customer University. By the way University distributor by distributor I mean they all sort of wanted it. And so you know, we fix those bugs by actually going to Asia and having a made in Asia and having them made in Asia we improved the heat tolerance of it. So they were actually much better at converting this PL a resin to be more heat resistant. So the, the heat tolerance went from about 105 degrees to about 135 degrees. So we now could private label, our quality was better, and we could put everything under one brand. So Hilton resorts could buy their forks, they could buy their souffle container they could buy their to go container, they could buy their straws, they could buy their corn cup their hot cup from one manufacturer as opposed to piecemealing it to a bunch of manufacturers like we had done previously. They could buy it from one plus our quality was better and our pricing on average went down 20 5% from Asia. So now the price was better in around 2008. If you remember, the price of oil went up to about $155 a barrel. So our resin was actually now cheaper. And so that was that was our big year when the economy was falling apart in 2008 eco-products went from about five to 45 million in revenue. And, you know, that was great. That was that was a crazy year. Marc Gutman 31:26 Yeah. And was it that simple? I mean, were you you saw this opportunity to private label and then you just did just do it? Did you have to raise money? Like how did you actually make this bet and make it work? Because, you know, I, at least in my my thought like It Wasn't that simple. Steve Savage 31:42 Yeah, I mean, it was from like, cash perspective, it was very difficult. I did raise money through a private placement memorandum through friends and family in oh seven and oh eight. In 2008. We actually took our first private equity investment from Green Mountain Capital of 2 million. So that definitely helped. But still going from five to 45 million is tough. Plus the cash flow model is terrible because you got to wire money to Asia. And it's a very slow boat coming over. And then the product, you know, it didn't sit in our warehouse very long, because actually no way, we're on allocation of seven of our top 10 items. So I mean, they went out the minute they came in, but then it was another 30 days to get paid. So I mean, my cash flow model was, you know, about 80 days from when I first wired to Asia, when I got paid by the US distributors. And that was our strategy. We went to us foods, Cisco food service, so we didn't go the direction of a few other. You know, there were a few other companies that were sort of doing this as well. We were the first one to go into distributors. And that pretty much made us successful because that's how we got into 10s of thousands of coffee shops and restaurants. And how Hospitals and universities and stadiums was through the US foods and Cisco food service. Marc Gutman 33:06 Yeah. And to your point, I mean, you and I know each other well, and you know, during those kind of, I don't know, if they're their early years or sort of the mid years, my wife and I, we would travel, we'd be in Hawaii, we'd see your cups, we'd be at the ski resort, and we'd see your cups, you know, we'd be traveling, as you mentioned, at Hilton Hotels, and we take a picture and send it to you. And it was like, such an exciting time. But did you was there a moment ever when you thought, like, this might not work? Or was it always a rocket ship? Steve Savage 33:33 It was always a rocket ship. I mean, yes, before we identified that opportunity and that window opened, There was a lot of times where as like, and as you touched on, I mean, we were a small not so sexy business for 16 years. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, I wasn't paying myself a lot. You know, there's a lot of doubt and, you know, where's this going and, you know, should I be doing this, am I ever going to provide for my family like I want to. So yeah, I've been tell then there was a lot of doubt. And you know, I liked what I was doing. I was selling environmental products I was, you know, I felt like I was making a difference. But from a personal and financial perspective, now, there was doubt, but I would have to say once that window open, and we jumped through. I mean, it was crazy. How that took off. Well, that's super Yeah, Marc Gutman 34:25 it's super awesome. But like, how did you have the confidence in convince, especially that friends and family round? You know, I think the private equity, they saw the success you're like, well, private equity believes in me no big deal. But going to that, that friends and family round and saying trust me, and they're looking at your existing business and being like, well, it's okay. But you know, yeah, like, like, how did you kind of go in there and have the confidence and as well as just the self belief that you were going to do right by what I have to believe are the people that you cared about the most, you know, certainly cared about your private equity investors. I don't want to say that. Not to be the case. But when you go friends And family that's like your kind of your your name, right, your family name your word that's like the big, the biggest thing you can risk sometimes. Steve Savage 35:07 Yeah, I mean, the good thing about those 16 years, though, is we were always growing, and we're always profitable. So we were, we were building a good business. I mean, we weren't super profitable. I mean, it's not like I was making anywhere close to six digits and so forth. But I mean, it was enough to pay my mortgage. And, I mean, it was, it was a decent business. So I, I, you know, I raised money, knowing that I could always pay it back because we weren't losing money. So that's kind of what gave me the confidence was, I knew I could always return the money, because at the end of the day, it was environmental products. But it was still products, right? It was still a commodity item. It was either paper towels or coffee paper or fax paper at the time. If any of you remember what fax paper or fax machines were, but I mean, it was Always, it was always a solid business. You know, we always had a good balance sheet. So I wasn't that concerned when I had my palm out and no people were writing checks. I'll tell you those early investors. I mean, they made out like bandits too. I mean, $40,000 investors made 1.6 million. I mean, it was that ended up paying off. Marc Gutman 36:22 Yeah, I mean, you certainly did, right by all them, but like, at the time like to say, hey, if you give me 40, I'm gonna give you 1.6 Steve Savage 36:29 I don't know you would have seen that coming. No, I didn't see that coming, though. Marc Gutman 36:33 Ya know, and it's such a great success story, and really, really incredible. But I think sometimes we forget that and on the backside when everyone's happy, just how hard it is to get there. And so you're building this business? You go from five to 45 million a year, like what's going on with you just as a leader with your company, like what's happening at that time? Steve Savage 36:55 So, yeah, I mean, we had to grow Fortunately, my wife is Human Resource specialists and she was huge as far as helping me develop the team, you know, the processes from a human resource perspective as far as benefits and so forth. So, she was a huge help also hired, you know, and I think most of it was luck. But he had an amazing team Luke, Luke Vernon was our CEO, you know, super fortunate to have him on board at the time, you know, as some of the Boulderites know, he runs Luke circle. He's now with a private equity group. I mean, super smart guy. I mean, really, Luke and I and then another older kind of legend, Jim lamma kusa, who now owns kusa tea He was my VP of sales and marketing. So it's really Luke, Jim and I. So we had a great team, we had great chemistry, headed our sales, Luke spearheaded our operations and a lot of this manufacturing in Asia and I just pulse you know, I kind of ran the show inside the walls as far as building the infrastructure. And the good news is the infrastructure was sorted there when that window open. I mean, we were a $5 million company, we had 12 employees. Like I said, we were profitable. I mean, we we did have the infrastructure, which helped. It's not like we were two people when this opportunity happened. I mean, we had an MRP system, and we had a lot of our invoicing and accounting processes in place. Marc Gutman 38:30 Yeah, it was like almost like you were preparing for that moment. And just waiting and getting things ready and making sure that you're prepared as soon as, as soon as you saw your window, and so grew the company. And again, I think like people just forget, there's this moment where like the idea of a compostable cup and then silverware was kind of like, it's kind of silly, like, you know, like, it was like early adopter kind of stuff didn't always work. You were like, who like what's going on here? Is this even, like people were just really like, not One was super bullish on it. But then both the window of the product and just the trends of where people's heads were in terms of environmentalism, warning things were compostable, reducing your carbon and environmental impact, like all these things, were coming to the forefront and so you're having incredible success. And you grow the company, and you get an offer to sell the company. Tell me about that. Steve Savage 39:24 Yeah. So, you know, another kind of big thing. In, you know, the next year, you know, I mentioned packed IV, you know, we were distributing their sugarcane plates and bowls and clam shells. In 2009. They came in, in a big way. They knocked us off on our hot cups, really, by design with each one was a different color. I mean, they were very suspicious the right word. I mean, they started writing huge checks to US foods and Cisco food service to bring in their in line called earth choice. They, they're in a billion dollar company so our big competitor went after us in a big way in 2009 Were you scared? You know, a little bit because they were writing you know $300,000 checks to kick us out so we had to win we really had to fight where Oh a our fight was to get make enough product and get it from Asia fast enough. But in 2009 Pact of a billion dollar company writing big checks to get kick us out of the distributors knocking us off it was you know, we we had a number of board meetings should we sue them because I mean, it was so obvious they knocked us off but you can't trademark colors and you can't trademark the, you know, the earth map, which was on our hot cups, so we couldn't sue them. But anyways, yeah, we were scared in oh nine we still grew from 45 to 65. But we're forecasting about 85 90 million that year. So it came in a little sooner and a lot more vicious than we anticipated. But to answer your question, I mean, it was a fight against pact. And for a number of years, we did get an offer and 2012 or the business, we're about 85 million in revenue. It kind of became obvious to me that, you know, could we take this as far as we could, because we didn't own any equipment, we kind of get that last 15 20% Cost of Goods savings, to really compete against those North American manufacturers that actually did have the equipment. So did we take this as far as we could, and, you know, when someone offers you a big jack, and no, and you have to remember, at this point, this is 2012. I've been doing this for 22 years. And so we decided maybe we've taken this As far as we can, we need to be purchased by a strategic that has equipment that has machinery that can get us that last 15 20% that has the same environmental culture and mission that we do. So yeah, I mean, we're we ran a small process, but we ended up selling to Waddington North America, otherwise known as w na in 2012. Marc Gutman 42:26 And was that was that hard? I mean, I have to imagine that you, you know, and we see this all the time. I've built businesses, I've talked to a lot of people who've built businesses, it's a little bit like your child, it's a baby, maybe even, you know, it's like something you built from from nothing into something. I mean, was it hard to sell? Steve Savage 42:43 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was hard. I mean, it's everything I ever knew for 22 years. So yeah, it was tough. But, you know, by then 19 toy brands had already started so when eco products started getting rid of a lot of the stuff like the environmental building materials, the non toxic cleaners and so forth. I didn't want boulder clean, which was the non toxic cleaners and detergents to die. So I had actually started 19 oil brands in 2010. And it absorbed the cleaners. So I already kind of had my hands in another cookie jar when ego products sold. So unfortunately, I didn't get much of a break. I just went from one business to the other. But I was sort of, you know, still in the game doing what eco products used to do so, so part of the business, but still had another business and that's, you know, what I'm doing today. Marc Gutman 43:43 And why is that? I mean, I think we all have this, this dream of being on that proverbial rocket ship, but finding our window, finding our corncob right, whatever that might be, having a great exit and then like why go back into to Kind of startup land again, or at least much smaller and less momentum than what you were experiencing? Why do that and why not just go hang out on the beach and kite board and, you know, play a lot of tennis and hockey? Steve Savage 44:13 Yeah, I mean, I still ask myself that question. I mean, I was still young. I mean, I was 42 at the time. I wasn't ready to retire. I thought boulder clean still had a great opportunity. I mean, it was, you know, only one or 2 million at the time, but I you know, my kids were in grade school or probably junior high, maybe grade school at the time. So it's not like I could retire and pipe board forever, and play hockey and so forth. I know, I had my parents sponsibility So yeah, I mean, I just went from one company to another you know, I I have a lot of energy and passion and felt like I had one more no business to grow. Marc Gutman 45:01 Yeah. And speaking of that energy and passion, I mean, what are you most excited about right now as it relates to 1908 brands and where you're taking the company? Steve Savage 45:09 Yeah, you know, what's the craziest thing is this year as kind of, like eco products. I said, in a way when the economy was falling apart, that was our big year. Ironically, I mean, the years at 19, like brands, I mean, it's been tough. This is a tough category. It's a which is the natural foods channel natural products, dealing with grocery stores and distributors. I mean, it is a very tough industry. There's a lot of marketing money that retailers and distributors Expect When You're a smaller company. You know, you're can't leverage high volume, cost of goods. And so it's been tough, but this is our window. Actually, during this pandemic. We have a plant based EPA registered against the SARS-COV2 that causes COVID-19 we actually were in development of this right before the pandemic hit. And this is our five to 45 million year right and as the world is falling apart, so this is kind of like eco products 2.0 this is really being driven by this plant based EPA registered disinfectant. And you know, since the pandemic started, it's gone nationwide with Whole Foods, all these Sam's Club regionally with Costco, nationwide Kroger so I mean, it's this is I've been working 10 hour days since the pandemic started just trying to get more chemical, more bottles, more triggers, you've probably heard, you know, spray triggers. You can't even find them. You couldn't for a while, but we've gotten lucky. Fortunately, our bottles a little shorter, fatter than most. So the dip tube length of eight and a half inches is a lot easier to come by. So I've been able to get spray triggers. We've invested in more molds to make more bottles. But it's funny, I mean, after slugging it out at 1908 brands for 10 years, you know, our window open and it kind of opened with this EPA registered disinfectant. Marc Gutman 47:19 Now what's hard about putting a plant based disinfectant out on the market? I mean, I imagine it can't be easy. It's probably the easy path is to do something that's chemical based. Steve Savage 47:31 Yeah, chemicals are a lot easier to make synthetically. But you know, this time all based disinfectant. I mean, it definitely works in there is supply of it. So the chemical actually hasn't been the hard part in this. In this time. All base technology has been around for a few years, seven generation and clean well also have a disinfectant with this technology that's EPA registered so So the formula has been around a little bit, it's really been the components, you know, the packaging, and because then this entire category, the cleaning and detergent category has been extremely stressed since this started, I bet. Marc Gutman 48:14 Well, Steve, thank you so much for coming on the show. As we wind to a close, I have a final question for you. You know, if your great uncle William Ken, and your father who, you know, I understand, I know, is no longer with us. If they were able to see you today, what do you think they'd say? Steve Savage 48:31 I hope that they would say they were proud of me. You know, I think they would say that just trying to kind of follow in their footsteps. I mean, they were huge role models, you know, something that, you know, I look up to and, you know, I'm just trying to follow in their footsteps and I hope that they will be proud and so yeah. Marc Gutman 48:58 And that is Steve sax. From echo products in 1908 brands, what does your window look like? Would you even know it if it opened up right in front of you? Steve certainly does. He saw the window wants with corn cups. And it sounds like he's seeing it again with plant based cleaners. Right on Steve. Thank you again to Steve and the team at 1908 brands. Keep saving the world, one eco product at a time. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www dot wildstory comm where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 037: Cambria Jacobs | EGYM | Fit for Life

Joining us today is Cambria Jacobs, Chief Marketing Officer of EGYM, a global fitness technology leader that uses smart gym equipment to support their members’ fitness journey by providing data-based guidance for motivation and measurable results. Have you wanted to live a healthier lifestyle but felt immediately intimidated by what to do when entering a gym? Maybe you’ve walked over to a big hunk of gym equipment and thought to yourself, “How do I adjust the speed?” or “Where does this pin go?” If you’ve ever felt this way, EGYM was created to strengthen people just like you. Not only is Cambria is a rockstar at EGYM, she’s also had nothing short of a remarkable career path to get here. From the start of her career as a marketing assistant after college, Cambria has used her “scrappy” talents to take the companies she works for to amazing new heights. She stresses the importance of feeling that “Friday night lights” energy to fire up the passion she needs to get work done. Cambria reminds us that it’s not your performance that matters, its how you showed up, how hard you worked, and the lessons you learned along the way. With that said, what will you do with what you’ve learned today?

In this episode, you’ll learn…

• EGYM’s gamified equipment has lead them to become a global powerhouse at the intersection of exercise and health
• How Cambria’s childhood love of Connie Chung and Jane Pauley taught her about taking complex stories and packaging them in a digestible and meaningful way
• One of the biggest challenges for companies is how to communicate effectively to each other and their audiences
• Cambria reminisces on her youth in Newport Beach and how her development plan for the area at 15-years-old helped her realize her gift for communication
• When data is prevalent, look at trends and trust the experts. When the line is blurred, trust your gut
• Why video conferencing was exclusive to Fortune 500 companies in the age of suitcase cellphones
• Your first job, major in college, or your performance in either doesn’t really matter. It matters how you show up and where you decide to take what you absorb. 
• The importance of being brave and taking the leap for your passions, even when you’re diving into a whole new world
• When in doubt, return to the customer
• When dealing with a scary situation, focus on where everyone can align to foster community and build strength
• Push hard, but don’t forget to pause and be proud as you climb each summit

Resources

Cambria Jacob’s LinkedIn EGYM Facebook Page EGYM Instagram

Quotes

[17:52] “Yes, we all communicate, but very few of us do it well, and so that really became my path of being so intrigued by the words and the styles and the channels that different leaders around the world had selected throughout periods of time.”   [21:13] “You don't need to be so afraid to make sure you're always choosing the (right) words. Sometimes getting out of your own way and...really speaking from the gut and trusting what you've learned, sometimes that'll take you way farther.” [29:36] “It doesn't matter how you perform...but it's all of the lessons along the way: that you showed up, that you worked hard, the friends that you made, the families that you're having dinner with at the dinner table, how you're talking about who you are, and what you're seeing in the world is so impressionable.” [42:50] “When I wake up in the morning, I want to be fired up. I want to be excited to do better for our customers, for my teammates. I want to know what's next, I want to feel...that ‘Friday night light’ energy and when I don't have it for me personally, I can't be a great leader.” [57:26] “There's nothing I love more than taking all of the amazing insights and turning that into something fresh and letting (the employees) that have put their blood, sweat, and tears into something...really walk away and be incredibly proud.” 

Podcast Transcript

Cambria Jacobs 0:02 I was looking to how could I perhaps marry what I was becoming more, you know, I was a mother at this time I had been married and divorced and ready to really take that, you know, maturity and try to be bold and brave and break out of what I had always known, do something different. And that was when I really was looking into how can I get into health, wellness, more lifestyle, both business to business and business to consumer marketing because to me, I had much more personal passion in that field. But I was also I didn't, that's not where my connections were. That wasn't where my network was. And so that was a bit of a brave, bold and scary time, but I decided to pursue it. Marc Gutman 0:51 podcasting, Colorado, this is the baby got backstory podcast, we dive into the story behind the story of today's money. Inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. How scrappy young girl from Orange County with dreams of being in the next Connie Chung found her way West and became a global Chief Marketing Officer for a leading fitness technology company. Hey, now here's my regular ask. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. Assuming you like the show. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience which then helps us to continue to produce the show. Alright, with that out of the way on today's episode, we are talking to Cambria Jacobs, the global Chief Marketing Officer of EGYM This episode is a special one for me. I first met Cambria 20 years ago while we are working at a technology startup in Boulder, Colorado called rain dance, the hot tech of the time, audio and web conferencing. Go figure. anyone listening using that technology today? Well, when I met Cambria, this was New Tech. It was hot. And I can tell you, it didn't always work. But the very first moment I met Cambria, I knew she had it. I didn't know what it was then. And I really didn't even know what professional marketers and a company did back then. But I knew she was smart, and she was pivotal and helping to shape the overall company's strategy. And Cambria has had a remarkable career and marketing and she's nowhere close to winding it down. But today she's the global Chief Marketing Officer of EGYM, which is a global fitness technology leader that provides fitness and health facilities with intelligent workout solutions. Built on connected gym equipment and software, EGYM empowers gym operators to deliver a comprehensive experience through its smart gym equipment and digital solutions to support their members fitness journey and provide data based guidance to help them stay motivated and achieve their goal of a healthier life. with improved physical and mental wellness, Cambria will give us some examples of what that is specifically in this episode, so you can get a sense of what EGYM does. Together with her team. They've reinvented the EGYM brand to represent what the fitness technology company has evolved into, a global player at the intersection of exercise and health. Cambria is so smart and I could talk to her for hours. After the interview we talked about doing a follow up interview diving deep on marketing and branding specific topics. So keep a lookout for that one. But in the meantime, put on your listening ears because Cambria Jacobs is sharing 20 years of marketing experience In this is her story Cambria thanks thanks for joining us. We have a long history together, which I hope to discuss in this episode. But before we get to that, why don't you go ahead and tell us your position and the company you work with and what you guys do. What is EGYM? Cambria Jacobs 4:25 Awesome, thanks Marc. So my name is Cambria Jacobs, I'm the global Chief Marketing Officer at EGYM, EGYM I'm actually was founded right around 10 years ago. And our mission was to make the gym work for everyone, which I think right now in terms of the global pandemic is something that we all could feel safe and ready to work out into place that actually delivers that, but we really have grown from a from a small team into a multinational company. We've launched several generations of smart strength Equipment lines that really have expanded over time. And when you look at a gym, we're a global fitness technology leader. We provide fitness and health facilities with really smart and intelligent workout systems across the globe. It's designed really not about just showing up to the gym and getting your workout in, but how we can actually deliver results measurable results to the person who is working out as well as to the gym owner who's making an investment in both their hardware, their software and their total system. Marc Gutman 5:32 So command example like like where my I actually come into contact with with your technology. Cambria Jacobs 5:38 Absolutely. So in North America in particular, the YMCA is we're actually some of our early our early customers and it's perfect, especially when you look at the mission of making the gym work for everyone and then aligning that with the YMCA mission where it truly is that that perfect mix of of America. Where everyone is welcome. The alignment was pretty clear. And what was really great to see with the YMCA is, is that they were looking for a solution that if you can imagine when you go into a gym, maybe you're just coming back after having your second child. Maybe you're older and you're recovering from a stroke. And at the YMCA is that's a place that you feel pretty safe. But when you walk over to do actual strength training, looking at that whole wall and trying to remember how do I adjust that speed, how much weight can I really lift? Where did I put that pin? A lot of times people like that, which we refer to as the health seekers. So really the 80% of us here in North America, that's super intimidating. And so the YMCA is in particular have been a great place where they looked at that and saw our equipment where you actually get on a machine, you take your RFID and it knows who you are, and it'll actually do a strength test for you and it's all like that. Played Pac Man, essentially, it's all gamified. And so I'm chasing some, you know, dots on a screen while I'm pushing what I can and pulling what I can. And then it remembers it, it remembers where my seat was, was positioned, it remembers how how hard I was able to push, and then every six weeks, it will allow me to do another strength test. So essentially, when I come back, all I have to do is again, swipe my RFID. It knows exactly where I was last time I sit on and I get going. And I can go ahead and get my strength training workout accomplished in 30 minutes or less. And I instantly have all of my data about how effective I was, how much better I was, perhaps than last time how I'm progressing. I can see all of that data in real time on all of my digital devices, if you know what if I've downloaded the app, all of it is integrated. So that part is just really exciting for where you can see that at least in North America, and that's in the YMCA or the nonprofit sector. But additionally, we also are in Gold's Gym in Southern California. We also are have boutique concepts. So those concepts that are a little bit different in, in Florida. So we've got folks in all different regions, but the YMCA would be the most prevalent here in North America. Marc Gutman 8:19 And that's incredible. I feel like you just described me I didn't realize I was a health seeker but like one of my biggest one of my biggest like, issues with going to the gym or even like, like when you're like in a cycling class or whatever is truly like, where where I was I set last time, like, how do I set this up, like, I always feel like and then I'm intimidated because I feel like a idiot in the gym. Like, I don't know how to do anything and, and I don't want to be you know, seen as that person that doesn't know how to work the machine that I'm on. And so I just, I feel like that's so amazing in a in a service and a technology in a solution that that everyone truly needs. So I'm really looking forward to, to seeing that deployed a little bit more widely into some of the other things I'm a lifetime fitness person. So if you can make that happen, that'd be cool. Cambria Jacobs 9:03 Absolutely we are, we're all there lifetime fitness, that would be just such an amazing opportunity to expand that net to help. Like we said, health seekers like us that again, we're not alone. 80% of us here in North America would fall into that bucket. And we're not going after the experts because we have the peloton and someone that really expert in equipment that is dialed in, and they know how to use it. So they don't need necessarily as much guidance. So let's not try to attack that market where they're feeling like their needs are already being met. How about the rest of us that are trying to just get healthier and, and be fit for the life we want to live. Marc Gutman 9:38 And so global cmo sounds really, really awesome. And in my world, that's about as high as you go in the marketing realm. So you've done quite well, but like I have to ask, you know, when you were eight years old, was Cambria, a little Cambria? Was she dreaming of becoming a marketer? Like what was your childhood like and and would you want to be one When you're little, Cambria Jacobs 10:01 Ah, what a fun question. I would say when I was little I. So growing up in the, you know, born in the early 70s. And so being a small child in the late 70s and 80s, I would say Connie Chung and Jane Polly seemed to be a couple of my childhood heroes as strange as that sounds. So I actually always wanted to be on the Today Show or Good Morning America as a morning newscaster. And I wanted to be that since I was like six or seven years old. So no, I mean, I guess in a way communication was always something that I was drawn to I loved, complex stories that that that seemed way too complicated for the everyday person to really understand and then to see them show up, package it in a way that was digestible for I guess the rest of us always just seemed like something that was was fun and cool, and really helpful and meaningful, at least for our family. And it was also at time that I remember of just being together in the early mornings before the rest of the day ensued. Marc Gutman 11:05 That's weird. I mean, I'm, I'm a child of that era too. And you know, all my stories of bonding are over movies and things like that. I think this is part of the generation but you were growing up, I believe in Southern California. Is that right? Cambria Jacobs 11:18 Yes, I was born and raised in Newport Beach, California before I headed to college at the University of Colorado Boulder. And where I have remained ever since. Marc Gutman 11:30 Yeah, and what were your interests as you got a little older, maybe not even quite to college, but as you were in California, I mean, it was a pretty typical it was it this like kind of, you know, warm, sunset II kind of existence where you're hanging out at the beach and it's a little bit like Saved by the Bell or like, what was it like then? Cambria Jacobs 11:48 Yeah, I would say that Orange County at that time you port beach in particular was definitely I wouldn't call it a sleepy beach town because I think it had progressed from that by the time you know, the 80s and 90s. But but certainly much, much rougher around the edges than perhaps it has now where it certainly seems to be much more perfectly polished I would say. And I feel really lucky. I can't speak for the other classes that they grew up in that time. But we had a really strong group of parents and I went to Corona Del Mar High School, we had great teachers and leaders, and we were very close. My class was just a few hundred people. And so, yes, being down on the beach, tower five big Corona was the hangout and we had fun and didn't ever take it too far. For the most part, again, depends on the group you were in, but it was a it was a good it was it was definitely not 90210 and we felt supported connected. It was about Friday Night Lights, just like all cities and towns. But yeah, we had the opportunity in the amazing luxury of then ending that day, or starting that day at the beach. driving down the street to see a sunset. Catalina in the background. But yeah, I mean, I would say it was pretty similar to a lot of towns a lot of growing up just, you know, with also a lot more privilege and opportunity. So feel felt very, very fortunate. Marc Gutman 13:15 We're interested at that time, both academically and non academic. Cambria Jacobs 13:20 You know, I think for me, I mean, honestly, I was definitely that kid that, you know, socializing was was certainly a priority of mine. I didn't necessarily put a lot of thought into what was going to be next. But I always knew that obviously, I would go to college, I wanted to go out of state, I wanted to really push beyond Orange County and see what was was out there and my parents really pushed me to not take the University of Southern California path and to get out and meet people that grew up in other places. And so for me, I really appreciated and loved and felt so lucky to grow up where I did, and it's still remains one of my, my top places to go home as I still call it. But what I always knew is that I did want to travel, I did want to expand and I wanted to do something different, bigger and better. But what that looked like, especially in high school, I had absolutely no idea. Marc Gutman 14:17 And I think that that's typical, right? Like, I think most of us don't don't necessarily know what we want to do after and I think that's a big part of, of being that age and figuring it out and exploring but so you decided to go to University of Colorado at Boulder, and like why they're like, of all the places. Why? Why be above? Cambria Jacobs 14:37 Yeah, exactly. Well, I think, you know, I would love to say that I searched it out. I did all the research, I really had grown in terms of my vision of knowing what was next for me and therefore very methodically made that decision. But truth be told, it definitely was, you know, in that time the era of Southern California's Southern Californians invading Boulder, Colorado and I came out with a handful of kids from Corona Del Mar. My older brother also went to the University of Colorado was a Sigma Chi and was a gorgeous place. So that certainly had a heavy weighting on that decision. And then of course, once I started the application process and interviewing, I really became I started to create my own vision of why Boulder, Colorado and that came from kids that I met that were from back east and from the Midwest. It came from seeing these mountains that were so crystal clear and so detailed that they almost didn't even seem real to me, and then having the opportunity to start working in Boulder, Colorado through college, waitressing at one of the most famous dive restaurants in town Juanita has really expanded my colorful social network. It really started to defeat into what I was looking for which was just a little bit more of not the same of more experiences more backgrounds that I didn't have even though boulder colorado I would not say is still the the mecca of diversity. Marc Gutman 16:16 Not not quiet. It wasn't. It's not now but we're working on it. So when you were in college, like what were your interests besides the social aspect? It sounds like you had that nail but were you studying marketing? Did you start to map out a vision for your, your, your life in your career after college? Cambria Jacobs 16:36 I had a couple of really great professors at the University of Colorado, and the classes I was still taking were still pretty broad and yes, marketing, you know, as I as I entered and communication always still remained as not only something that I was drawn to but something that had been, you know, really communicated back to me that it seemed to come naturally to me and that perhaps up Something that you should lean into more. So I started to really double down in that area. And I did so in a way that I started looking really about better understanding rhetoric, the power of it. And and then as I was able to secure an internship with a new and emerging tech startup here in Boulder, right around my junior year, I realized that much of what I had been taking for granted that you know, in terms of communication, in terms of how people are, are marketing in the different strategies, something that seemed a lot like common sense to me was actually something that this company in particular, and then I would learn many, if not all companies, it's one of their biggest challenges is how do we communicate as a company with each other? And how do we communicate with our customers or shareholders all of those key stakeholders and, and while Yes, we all communicate, but very few and few of us do it well, and so that really became my my path of being so intrigued by the words and the styles and the channels that different leaders around the world had selected throughout periods of time. And then the impact that has had on so many milestones again across our world, and that really began to draw me in. And then having my first internship in the marketing team really gave me a better understanding of how that then could be applied and use to actually tie it back into measurable results beyond just what what felt like it helped alleviate some challenges or friction actually resulted in company company and customer benefits. And that was a connection that had I not had that internship. I don't know if I would have been able to make that connection at that time. Marc Gutman 18:47 Yeah, it's such a powerful connection. I mean, it's one I still struggle with today. I mean, like, I get caught up in the things that that make me in the client feel good and sometimes forget about those measurement. results and actually having the business outcome. And I think a lot of people in this space struggle with that at times, especially when you slant a little bit more towards the creative. But when you were, you know, you mentioned this, this idea that you were there was reflected back upon you that, you know, you have this gift for communication. Do you remember any moment in particular, any professor or anyone that really connected with you on that and what they told you, Cambria Jacobs 19:27 you know, I look back, actually, it would be even earlier than that, I look back at a project that we had to do in high school. And that sort of that triggered me into really thinking more about it, and it was at a time in Southern California. Irvine Company is one of the largest development firms it was at the time, Donald Bren, which is funny that you know, a child of 14 or 15, 15 would remember a developer you know, a company however, that was one of the main industries I would say in in Orange County, and looking at growth and the growth plans in Southern California at that time and our beaches and the open space. And we had a project to be able to say, you know, if you could partner with anyone, and be able to do a presentation, who would it be? And what would it look like? And I took the opportunity to really do a, a slow growth development plan that would still appeal to to one of the biggest developers in Southern California and present it in a way that would be compelling for him to invest, even though the short term revenue would be less than desirable. And as I gave that presentation to a mix panel, the amount of engagement and accolades, so definitely a celebration of a talent, and then actually some creative thinking that came out of that. You know, some well esteemed professionals was really sort of that that juice that I needed to be able to continue pursuing that. And then fast forward, you know, maybe six years later in the internship presentation where I was really pushed that you don't need to be so afraid to make sure you're always choosing the wrong words, sometimes getting out of your own way. And just, you know, really speaking from the gut, and trusting what you've learned, sometimes that'll take you way farther. And that opportunity that I finally did that it was less prescriptive was the opportunity that I really got the best grade in that class and that confidence boost to to stop really always questioning everything you're going to do and start trusting your gut as you're building up your experience continued to be something that that I followed into my my early career, Marc Gutman 21:48 and Is that how you continue to make decisions today are you typically a gut based decision maker, Cambria Jacobs 21:53 you know, I would say in the in the early days, you know, having not a lot of experience less, less So and then I'm smart enough to know also that as data becomes much more prevalent, much more aware, really looking at trends, things of that nature. But I think that comes with with just experience and visibility into those data into that did those data sets so less about less about gut unless it's a decision breaker, more about trusting the experts that are around you doing a lot of listening looking at trends, I think that is definitely much more a part of my decision making now and then gut when, when it's not super clear, the the line is, is a little bit blurred. You go back on to what do you know and and also surrounding yourself with fantastic people that ideally have more expertise in areas that you do not. Marc Gutman 22:50 Yeah, and I know that you have a daughter who is finishing high school and getting into college and so it's such a kind of an exciting time and a parallel I'm thinking about you and in your college career and so when she or not when she when you left college when you left Boulder, did you know what you were going to do? Did you have a job lined up? Are you like, Hey, I'm ready to go or what did that look like for you? Cambria Jacobs 23:16 So I always look back in that time and just feel so incredibly fortunate. I had the opportunity to connect with four amazing ex Air Force men who had created the startup link VTC, which at the time, which is in the mid 90s, was a very innovative video conferencing company and work really focused on fortune 500. So, Pfizer, Wells Fargo of the world, we're really our biggest accounts and everyone at the company was definitely 30 or younger and was that that early tech startup vibe in Boulder and I was lucky enough through university of colorado to land a marketing internship within that company and as I graduated, I was able to interview and was offered a marketing assistant role at that company so I was able to do the the six week American backpack through Europe trip and then come back to a job working with really some of the best teammates I've ever had and continue actually being some of my very dear friends and and leaders that inspired me and continue to be some of the best leaders I've I've ever worked with. Marc Gutman 24:33 It's like the American College dream You know, like you go to college and get a job it's not so common anymore. Cambria Jacobs 24:40 I it was it was one of those things that but I knew at the time I definitely did not take that for granted. I knew at the time how very fortunate I was the way things played out. Marc Gutman 24:51 Yeah, so take us back a little bit because you know, this interviews being recorded on zoom, you and I we came to our computers. We had very little issue. We just hit more button we're talking to each other seeing each other our lips are synced. It was such an easy experience today and especially in the middle of this pandemic, I mean people are living on video and and it just all seems to work but what was it like back then like like, you know, why was it just for Fortune 500 companies Cambria Jacobs 25:16 oh my gosh well back then I feel like a very old person right now back then kids It was a try to get an ISDN line installed to your your office let alone your home. So you had enough bandwidth to actually be able to have the you know, have video and audio and then they also had these incredibly complex and expensive systems that actually would have enough resolution to be able to actually capture a video that was worth anything, let alone the quality of these you know, fortune 500 companies. And then of course it would not be as simple as just clicking a button you know between the early network challenges the you know, hardware challenges software. challenges, etc. I mean, it was it was an entirely different world back then. And like anything we can think of the cell phones back in the 80s, where people had to carry around a giant suitcase, I would say it's probably similar to that experience and which now of course, it's it's a device that everyone has everyone uses, much like, how this pandemic has now, you know, allowed us to have zoom calls and hangouts with our grandparents. So really similar technology path of part of the early adopter phase where it was, you know, you need to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in that equipment and then thousands and thousands every month for the support and then businesses like Lync BTC competex of the world that were outside of, you know, British Telecom that were also popping up so the very early telecom startups that were coming up in the in the 90s. Marc Gutman 26:53 Yeah, and why was it x Air Force like what What was that all about? The leaders Yeah. Cambria Jacobs 27:00 Yeah, I mean great question. I don't know the actual drive as to why they landed in technology. But I do know that these were were four different gentlemen that all had really different areas of expertise but what they shared was exceptional leadership, very charismatic, incredibly intelligent and technology and communication was just a natural fit for them. And it actually they started in California before they decided to move to Colorado and together they had the ability to do a lot of you know building databases themselves with Paul Brabarian and an early now CEO of Spiro right of the Gemla Jeals of the world who have taken you know, companies public sense of, you know, being able to raise funds and help an early company be really financially responsible a Joel Daly who could train the most technical skills to fresh college graduates, while also inspiring them to, to really show up and give more than they ever thought possible and then followed by Art Zaly who was the epitome of a sales and marketing leader that that made his team feels that they could accomplish the world and rewarded them every step of the way. And almost like you know, your your favorite father where you wanted to make sure that that he was proud of you as the customer was so together, they just had a really special mix of talent, leadership and incredible intelligence. Marc Gutman 28:37 Yeah, for those listening, if you go ahead and Google those names, you will see where they've all gone and they've gone on to amazing great things. It's a bit like having the all star team or the Beatles at the beginning of your career and then you know where they went after. So it's, it's pretty cool that you were able to to start your career and really get your foundational worldview in business and skills from those from the Leaders I mean, I know and you know, the things that are really still with me today are from my, my first jobs and from what I've learned from my, my first mentors and bosses. And so it's interesting how those, you know, sometimes people say your first job doesn't matter and a lot of ways it doesn't except for the fact that you're gonna, you're really impressionable, and you're really learning and it really sets you know how you're going to view and see the world going forward. So so for Cambria Jacobs 29:26 childhood, right, I mean, it's, you know, doesn't really matter what you chose, you know, you were choosing to take in high school, the friends you made the sport she played, no, it doesn't matter how you perform in that, but it's all of the lessons along the way that you showed up that you worked hard, the friends that you need, the families that you're having dinner with at the dinner table, how you're talking about who you are, and what you're seeing in the world is so impressionable. And that same thing happens I think, as you enter into college and whatever that experiences regardless of how you perform or what your major is, and that same in that first job. About how you choose to show up and then what you're observing around you and where you decide to take that. Whether you're starting as you know, the you know, and you know, the very entry level or you're getting a mid level position. It's what do you do from that point? That I think is is the opportunity that you can make of yourself and how you want to be perceived by those that can really take you to whatever is next. Marc Gutman 30:23 Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. This episode brought to you by wild story. Oh, wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose. And brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. So you're at link VTC and what happens with that company and where do you go next? Cambria Jacobs 31:36 So in my, you know, fond memories, I felt like I was there for you know, five years when in fact it was it was more like a couple of years. But I think we all know in startup time that that felt and really the experience was probably five plus. And you know, I was able in that that young marketing assistant position to you know, receive a promotion, start to experience In an acquisition, acquiring companies able to experience what a rebrand looked like, and not just experience it, but be part of the team that led it with, with leaders that were much more experienced than I was at that time. And being young and ambitious, you know, thinking I knew more than I absolutely did at that time, was was getting antsy for what was next. And those founders, you know, you when you're part of a startup like that, it definitely feels like family and they to through these acquisitions, and, you know, we're starting to move on to what, what was next for them? And I remember at that time, as you know, early on, when I heard that I couldn't even imagine why would they break up the band? It was like your parents saying, you know, they were leaving. And it was it was really, I remember it being really hard for the company. I mean, there definitely were tears involved. And when I look back on that to create a culture at work, that people felt that personally aligned and involved in wanting to, to deliver so much excellent that they personally just you know, devastated when there was that time to move forward was was pretty impressive. And then also it led me really separate and look back and understand that there is a lifecycle and a value. And now it's time to take what you've learned and try to replicate the the best of the best into whatever was next. And luckily, one of those partners actually two of those partners split off, started a new company, along the same lines of technology and communication. But it was right around video streaming before video streaming was a thing and like broadcast.com and Vstream at the time and had invited me to take the marketing methodology philosophies, practices that we had built at link vtc. and apply them to their new startup and and so that that past started and they actually gave me the opportunity to start building my own team, even though I was about a few years out of school and and that was was what was next Marc Gutman 34:01 And what you think about that? Were you ready to do that? I mean, I know in my career sometimes I've, you know, I've set my sights on a particular role, well above myself, and I'm like, I want that role. And I can cite examples where getting that role was really this great moment of growth. I can also say, a time where I was like, you know, what, I probably should have went, the more you know, the slower path and worked my way into that role, because I wasn't ready, or I didn't learn what I needed to learn. So how were you at that role when you took the reins of marketing for the first time and had to lead your own team? Cambria Jacobs 34:37 Yeah. So I think I think a couple of things happen. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said. I will say that because the the partners that I was working for on that side of the house came from finance and tech. I think they the way they saw marketing was we need events and we need a trade show booth. And I know Cambria was really good at doing that in the early days that link so let's have her do that. Then. So I think that they were looking at marketing at that time. As you know, we had a really limited budget, we were a scrappy startup, and she's scrappy. And so I think based on that level of expectations, it was it was a good move for me. And then what what unfolded was, together we were able to really share what is marketing? How can it be bigger, I was allowed to surround myself with other professionals that had much more experience than I did as well as other partners and agencies that then allowed me to really learn on the job and be able to then hire a good team around that. So I would say it evolved slowly as funds became available as expertise became available. And then from there, I mean, it wound up being, you know, a 15 year job through acquisitions going public, multiple rebrands. And so you know, working at a job 14, 15 years is sort of unheard of these days, but truly it was, it was like working for your six different companies, and product evolution and all of that. So I think the amount of on the job training in a startup, but having the opportunity to surround yourself by experts, and amazing agencies and organizations allows you to take maybe a less traditional path. But Wow, you can't learn any more than than that. Unfortunately, you know, sometimes that can either your employer or your own detriment, because you're not going to get it right out of the gate. And there's a lot of trial and error. Marc Gutman 36:31 Yeah. And so what was going on with streaming at that time that I take off? Was that an incredibly successful business? Cambria Jacobs 36:38 Well, I would say if you if you asked our partners in the company, I think it absolutely was really successful business. I think there were some some missed opportunities on the the b2b space and you know, I think we all know the, you know, the broadcast.com story of, you know, one brand will win and I would say they came out ahead and sort of we were not the leader, but We sure put up a good fight. And a lot of the again, early adopter technology and services that we created, we were then able to pivot into more of a continued online collaboration that was, again, less heavy lifting like was back in the video conferencing days with, you know, timely processes and heavy infrastructure and all of that. And I think we pivoted quickly at a time to allow us to really still target, you know, b2b marketplaces with virtual communication tools, but do it in a much lighter weight fashion when web conferencing like the WebEx is of the world. We're all starting to come into play. And we were again ahead of the curve on that front also. Marc Gutman 37:42 Yeah, and I think that's where our stories first intertwined, I believe now we're at the point where you're talking about Evoke which soon came to be known as RainDance. And so we worked there that was it. That's where we met and that's where I first got, you know, my taste of Cambria and was just, you know, immediately impressed. And in new that you I don't even really know what marketing was at that time, I was just kind of like, what is it? Who are these people that the smart people in the company, they're doing all this cool stuff. And we worked there for a while. And like you said, again, like always on this like leading edge, it sounds like you've been like always on the tip of the spear always kind of first in and that's super exciting. And I remember working there and now even looking back at where like all the people we worked with are today. It's just like this crazy, you know, network alumni of people who have gone on to start companies and do all these amazing things. So it was just this amazing time that I know for myself. I didn't really appreciate at the time. You know, I was I was also scrappy, as you say and trying to do different things and trying to push on my career. And so working at that company having that opportunity. That's where we met but then that comes to an end for all of us to you know, at time there was an acquisition InterCall owned by West Corp. bought that company. And you know the kind of I used to tell my friends like when I first started working at RainDance that if Homer Simpson got a job at a startup that's what it would look like. Because it Paul Burbarian and on his like Razor scooter rushing around and there's all this food and everyone's just young and fun and crazy. And but it was interesting. It wasn't total excess and waste or anything like that it was just this like it had a definite character to it and a definite profile. And then we were purchased by West and interCall. And that changed a little bit they they had a different different model a different culture. And so after that, and after working for West for a while, where'd you go after that? Cambria Jacobs 39:39 Yeah, I mean, I think that gave me I think you summed that up perfectly. And I and I think going and starting at, at startups with that, that vibe, that culture and then getting the experience to then work for the big guys for West corporation with you know, thousands and thousands of employees all over the world. Getting that taste of what global marketing looked like how having teammates and teams now in other other continents, understanding really how those messages that we were coming up with were resonating with different types of customers. That all was really exciting and it helped me really grow and formalize my career on that stand front. Also working for a really seasoned chief marketing officer that had come from Motorola, Kathleen Senado. And really learning more business acumen understanding more about becoming a data driven marketer. That was a really good side to round out more of the branding and communication side that I had, had acquired. But I also knew and was showing up not as, as someone that was, was passionate about building that brand, because the brand that we had evolved into, wasn't necessarily something that that I was passionate about, nor was I becoming too great at. And it was really hard for me to take that look and say I've been in this, you know, tech communication field and startup field for so many years now. But I don't think it's doing it for me anymore. But I knew that I still really loved marketing and I was passionate about marketing, but my interests as, as a person and a professional had really grown and I was looking to how could I, perhaps, Mary, what I was becoming more, you know, I was I was a mother at this time I had been married and divorced and ready to really take the that, you know, maturity and, and try to be bold and brave and break out of what I had always known and do something different. And that was when I really was looking into how can I get into health, wellness, more lifestyle, both business to business and business to consumer marketing, because to me, I had much more personal passion in that field. But I was also I didn't have that's not where my connections were, that wasn't where my network was. And so that was, that was a bit of a brave, bold And scary time, but I decided to pursue it. Marc Gutman 42:03 Yeah. And so you mentioned that you had lost your passion for the brand. I mean, you're showing up to work, but you weren't necessarily feeling the brand. And that happens to all of us. But why is that important? Why is that? Why is that matter? Cambria Jacobs 42:15 You know, I think it's different for everyone. And I think it depends on the path that you're on and what your, your career or your job is, is how you position that into how that reflects on your identity, how you show up in the world, and for some people showing up and getting a paycheck and getting back to all of the other demands that life is is putting on you. Sometimes that works. And that's, that's good enough. And sometimes it's good enough always for people. It just isn't how I'm wired. And hitting the the cruise button is something that we all can do for a period of time. But when I wake up in the morning, I want to be fired up. I want to be excited to do better for our customers. For my teammates. I want to know what's up Next, I want to feel, you know that Friday night light energy, and when I don't have it for me personally, I can't be a great leader, I can't be good for our customers and deliver on what I was hired to do. And then that makes me not feel proud of myself. And then that means I'm not going to do my best work. And I think for any of us that have gone through those cycles in life outside of work, where within, that's a time where, you know, if you don't change, the same thing is gonna keep happening over and over again. And when you can't break out of that it's time to do something different. Marc Gutman 43:30 For sure. And you know, if there's one thing I know about you, or at least I think I know about you is that you're passionate about food, you're passionate about cooking and and creating a experience around the dinner table and using food as a way to bring family together and to really frame the moments that matter to you. And so, what I saw in your career was that you took this passion and you went out in you, as you just outlined, you went and you Found a role that really was was built all around food with a company called door to door organics and like, how did that work out? And I guess what I'm asking is, I think that a lot of people think, oh, if I only had a job built around my passion, it would be so awesome. It would be the best. Like if I just this thing that I love If I could just find a role around that thing, whether, you know, what am I into these days? You know, I'm into wake surfing, right? So like, if I found a job around wake surfing, I just be so much happier. Like, like, what's your take on it now that you went and did it and had that experience? Cambria Jacobs 44:37 I would say it was, it was everything and more that I was looking for, in terms of, I didn't realize how much I needed to. For me, the comfort was, was not bringing out the best in what I had. And so making a shift in an industry whether it was what To what I was passionate about, or just a big shift, I think the same result would have happened, that it just sort of awakens all the senses. And those things that you had done really well or that made a difference in in one industry can be even more powerful in another. So from a business perspective, it was really rewarding to really take you know, the years of planning and rebrands and communication strategies and then applying that to a consumer industry or another emerging industry, but that was all around really natural and organic food that was married with technology and and I could not have ever envisioned that that path would have happened. But again, you know, working your networks, talking to people really following and having those coffee meetings, things present themselves and I had the opportunity to be introduced to Chad Arnold, who was the chief executive officer at door-to-door Organics at that time. Start talking about those strategies that we were using at a conferencing company, our collaboration company, and how we were really enable enabled ourselves to sell into one decision maker and then engage the masses. And how could that then apply to online grocery? And how can we start to talk about building a brand that would really resonate with with smart, well educated, busy women trying to feed their families, how in the world could those those strategies and messages even be in the same ballpark? And what we found is that we are are more alike than different. And so so to me, that was that was something that was incredibly inspiring and then being able to actually show up at at a warehouse especially in the early days of training, and being there for you know, a 5am delivery of a fresh produce from Southern California berries and artichokes and garlic and I couldn't think of anything more inspiring to wake up to today. to essentially get the juices flowing, so it was, it was not anything I could have envisioned. But something that I just really put myself out there and I was willing like in the early days to do whatever it took just to get my toe into an industry that I felt I didn't know that much about only to learn that the years of experience and strategies in certain areas would actually have more power and impact into an industry like online grocery that thanks to the pandemic is now of course you know, not not ahead of the curve. But definitely you know, the the mainstream adopters are already in there. Marc Gutman 47:37 Yeah, so even with that when you were like you were on the tip of the spear again, you were like a little ahead of your time like people were having a hard time adopting and adapting to that model and it be it was just a tough model at the time given the market conditions and one can only think that you know, where you you know, was was was door to door around right now it would be crushing it right? Cambria Jacobs 48:00 Exactly I mean, you said it perfectly and I think you are right as that with link BTC with V stream turned you know, rain dance or evoke then rain dance. All of that is just very early adopter marketing, and in setting it up for what's next and and that same thing was true with with door to door but formalizing a strategy that really aligned to who is the early adopter, why is she that way? And how can we find more of her became something that, you know, we were able to grow from when I joined up, you know, 8 million upwards of, you know, over 80 million and in just a few years. And so, seeing that kind of growth and traction, while it might not be the end game of you know, maybe getting acquired by Amazon or going public for an online brochure, and back in those days, that success that we celebrated and built together as a team, from our delivery drivers to our pickers Packers, to the logistics crew and the marketing team was There are a lot of celebrations, with, of course, lots of heartache along the way. But that passion and teamwork and brand that we created for our customers, as well as the employees was second to none. Marc Gutman 49:13 Yeah, and it's such an exciting time and a big part of your career was spent in this very like what I would what I would term Colorado centric companies like very Colorado cool tech, like door to door organics. I mean, just like very kind of wearing that Colorado badge. But now you're at a company that's global. And I believe it's based in Germany, is that right? Cambria Jacobs 49:34 Correct. Munich, Germany, Marc Gutman 49:35 Munich, Germany. And so now completely shifting the the the the pattern that you have a new challenge for you, you're working for this global company. I mean, like what's hard or what's What don't we know about being a global cmo for a company like that? Cambria Jacobs 49:54 So I would say so each and while we have been around for 10 years, and they're very well known in in Germany for sure, or, you know, in the in the doc region, really I think what's what's so interesting and again, you know, with I think all of the topics that we're experiencing as as a world right now is, again, we're in a lot of areas where we're more alike than different. But yeah, those nuances are really important to understand. And what works in one place does not necessarily replicate and others. And so understanding and building a brand that again, was was big enough, like we make the gym work for everyone, and really identifying and nailing down what we all care about in life, which is becoming healthy and becoming Fit for Life. That's something that whether you're in the UK, or you're in Boulder, Colorado or Munich, Germany, we can all rally around that concept. And to me, that's the thing that makes all of the hard parts of the time changes the various languages the different things And nuances in the marketplace, if we can all rally on, what can we align on? And what can we agree on? That then makes it a lot less overwhelming and makes it a lot more clear to our market. And really, it gets us out of our own way at a lot of times, and I think that's, that's been half the battle is, is just really aligning on what do we stand for as a company? Who are we as individual EGYMies as we refer to ourselves? And how together can we really bring the world together around finding those health seekers and making the gym work for them so they can be fit for the life that they choose to lead, and boost their immunity system and really become healthier and stronger as a world? And to me, that is what gets me out of bed every day and is the most inspiring, and I feel incredibly fortunate to be part of a movement that could not be more timely. Marc Gutman 51:52 Yeah. And so, you know, it's incredibly hard time for marketers during this pandemic in general, but I have to imagine And that for a company that's working with physical gyms and gym, you know, technology equipment that goes into those locations has to be really difficult in what's going on and I have some clients that are gym based like in the climbing climbing sector and stuff like that and it's been tough right i mean it's complete shutdown it's it's a really tough situation, how are you navigating that and what are you looking forward to in the future here. Cambria Jacobs 52:24 So it is an incredibly difficult situation right now for for gyms across the world. And I think as for a gym, you know, we also were set to launch a brand new brand roll out our brand at some of our biggest trade shows that were set to take place in March in April. So right at the beginning of the pandemic, at our the, you know, the largest fitness event in the world phoebo and then here in the United States, Ursa and then only for both of those shows to be canceled. And then the world goes on lockdown. So how do you launch a brand during a pandemic, let alone then making sure that regardless of what Hm. And our brand was doing, that we were also then putting our customers at the forefront. And that, you know, was really, it was an interesting question for all of us. You know, once you get through the Panic of Okay, this is not happening the world as we know it is shifting and changing. So what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing right by our companies, our shareholders, our employees, but also putting our customers first putting them at center stage, which is a core habit of ours at EGYM? And that allowed, again, similar to where where can we align versus what are all the scary things held us really get grounded as a company and together, we worked really hard to understand what are the biggest challenges that our customers are facing right now? And what as what as they will be looking at us as maybe they're their hardware provider, we're not selling steel. So what can we do to really rally around them and what we narrowed in on is the things that those gym owners needed most At this time was to stay close to their members to make sure that their members felt that they were still connected to that community that they had. Even though they weren't able to be in the four walls of the gym, they were still connected, that gym owner still cared about them, and they were able to still maintain their health through the scary time. So together, we worked on software packages, through our digital solutions that allowed those gym owners to then communicate through a mobile device to their members to build that kind of community to push out virtual workouts, to really for them to share competitions, even though they weren't in that gym, followed by how can they then help to reopen their gym safely to understand the rules and restrictions to be able to manage their members signing up for time slot so there weren't too many members in the gym at any one time to be able to manage there are times smartstrength circuit to be able to clean the equipment to move on to the next without being less than six feet from from someone else. So all of those tools and applications and even a program where once before you might be building for strength or weight loss, how about boosting your immunity? What can sports and science come together to actually help you have measurable outcomes on how you actually can improve your immunity as you're going back to the gym, being the health seeker that you are, so as a company, we really rallied around what can we do to help our customer through this time so when they're ready to reopen, they're better and stronger than ever before. And then prepared for you know, if and when the virus comes back and we have to shut down again so so from that time, it became all about the customer again, recommitting to the essence that we all know. It's what they say they are not we say we are really has has served us and lead us through this time of uncertainty and we're really excited to see as you know, all of German gyms are reopened. The UK is set a time Spain has set a time and is reopening In, in those countries and the way they've been handling it are seeing their curve go significantly down. So, and now we can have those conversations with gym owners about what's next. How can we not just keep doing what we did before. But now learning from all of these measurable outcomes we were able to see through this time, and actually double down and invest on that to be better and smarter in the future. Marc Gutman 56:21 I love that. And I love like this, this idea of like, when in doubt, just returned to the customer, and how can we serve them? And how can we benefit them? It's so powerful. I know. I know. We're coming to the end of our time. I just have a couple more questions for you. You know, you mentioned the rebrand there's probably nothing I love more than a good new brand or rebrand and then launching the brand so exciting, right? It's kind of like new love. It's like that you get to go out there and like it's just like really, really exciting. I mean, what do you love about that process? I mean, what excites you and I could hear it in your voice you know it modulated in changed for the better when you started talking about that rebrand. Like, why do you love that? Like, what's Why is that important to you? Cambria Jacobs 57:03 There's something really special about a rebrand because you take the best of what's been created over, you know, almost a decade and give it a fresh, shiny Polish a new face, essentially. And I love it because and I found this in my career that I'm not necessarily the person that's going to be in front of the camera all of the time. But there's nothing I love more than taking all of the, all of the amazing insights and turning that into something fresh and letting those people that have put their blood, sweat and tears into something and letting them really walk away and be incredibly proud. And I think sometimes these young companies, especially Everyone's so heads down, that you don't really see all of the amazing work and results that have been happening along the way because they haven't been packaged in a way that really makes sense to either the employees or to the industry. And so that's the thing that has been missing. most rewarding when I first flew to Munich and stood in the social area with, you know, hundreds of EGYMies, asking them about the names of all of the different products and services and features. And they came to me in multiple languages and multiple terms saying the same thing. And that confusion that was across the board for the employees was mirrored in our industries and customers. And so to be able to pull all of that together with with languages that are different, both in nationality and regions, but also in terms of just products and features, and pull them into one new economy language that was going to redefine the industry and the company as to who EGYM is what we stand for what we offer, and how we're going to change the world for the better is something that I can't imagine any marketer any person wouldn't want to be involved with, let alone help lead. So to me, that has been one of the the biggest and most exciting and the problem Moments is to give all of the economies and our customers something that they can look at and point to, and be really proud of, in addition to all of the measurable return on investment that we're able to deliver through all of our our offerings, Marc Gutman 59:15 and cameras, we come to a close here. You've accomplished so much, you've had such a quite career quite a career. Thank you for sharing that with us. If you're 20 year old self that that college age Cambria, you know, ran into you today, what do you think she'd say? Cambria Jacobs 59:32 I think she would say, You showed up. You were brave. Never settle, push harder. But be proud and happy with with where you are and make sure you take pause as you climb each of those summit's and sometimes you also pushing hard sometimes it's okay just to float for a little bit. So you can be stronger and ready for what's ahead. Marc Gutman 1:00:06 And that is Cambria Jacobs, global Chief Marketing Officer of a gym. I love how she referred to herself as scrappy. And I almost call this episode. She's scrappy, but decided to go a bit more traditional in the end. I'm always intrigued to see where Cambria his career leads. EGYM is lucky to have her and I have no doubt that EGYM will go on to greater things with her leading the marketing team. Thank you again to Cambria and the crew at EGYM. Keep making the gym easy for health seekers like me. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 036: David Baker | ReCourses | The Business of Expertise

David Baker stumbled into the role of the “expert’s expert,” but he ran with it and hasn’t looked back. Not only has David written 5 books, but he’s also a keynote speaker on the global stage, as well as a podcast host! He joins us to share positioning and marketing gold. His work has been talked about by major titles such as NY Times, Fortune, Inc., Today, Business Week, and the Wall Street Journal. His early days living in a Mayan Indian village with his medical missionary family taught him fundamental lessons that he has carried with him, and relied on, throughout his successful career. We’re even talking about valuable tips entrepreneurs can use during the pandemic to keep their businesses not just surviving, but thriving, long term. You won’t want to miss this episode!

What we’re talking about

• Growing Up In a Mayan Village
• Becoming the “Expert’s Expert”
• Tips for Long Term Success, Even During a Pandemic

Growing Up In a Mayan Village

David grew up in a close-knit medical missionary family that lived in a Mayan Indian village in Central America. There was no electricity, no running water, no formal roads, and no stores. They literally grew everything they needed or bartered with others to get it. This way of living taught him to be self-sufficient and grateful for the simpler things at a very young age. It also ignited a passion for building, reading, and learning. This simpler way of life also began a life-long gratitude practice that he is deeply committed to, and influences the way he runs his business.

Becoming the “Expert’s Expert”

When David was near the end of his double Master’s, he realized that what he had wanted to do for a career, collegiate level teaching, wasn’t what he thought it was. But he decided that he needed to finish the program, and look for opportunities to take his newly obtained education and put it to work in a new way. Even though he didn’t go to formal school until he was a sophomore in high school, he was managing an academic bookseller doing editorial work while he completed his graduate work. When he decided not to go into teaching, he opened an agency because examples of communications were really poor. He didn't know anything about it, never worked at any of the firms, and didn’t know anyone that worked at one of those firms. He ran his agency for 6 years, and then went from running his agency to helping others run their agencies over a six month period. From there he went on to help experts run their firm. Boom! The “expert’s expert” was coined.

Tips for Long Term Success, Even During a Pandemic

The idea of the world changing slowly is out the window. David shares that he believes one of the biggest mistakes businesses make is by not positioning themselves correctly, and with intention. They’re extremely broad in their position, instead of focusing in, and niche-ing down to be able to obtain true expertise in an area. Entrepreneurs can’t be afraid of losing a small amount of success to achieve even more success. He advises that, in times like these, we need to adapt by making sure we have as few single points of failure as possible. Be nimble & flexible. Run the business well so it can be as financially efficient as possible to be able to pivot quickly. Sell something that doesn’t require dependence on supplier relationships. How are you positioning your business to be able to adapt in uncertain times? 

LINKS MENTIONED

The 2Bobs Podcast The Business of Expertise David C. Baker’s Website

SPONSOR

Wildstory

TIMESTAMPS

• 8:52 - 9:43 (51 sec DB) I hear phrases bounced around...when our natural world order is turned upside down. It’s crazy.
• 11:41 - 11:56 (15 sec DB) The key for me is, when my life...and deserve those sorts of things.
• 13:23 - 14:23 (60 sec DB) On the one hand you have...never going to have the upside of those mistakes that you’re going to make as well.
• 15:03 - 15:56 (53 sec DB) Probably the biggest, most widely...we’ll figure out how to do that for you, and make money in the process.
• 19:43 - 20:43 (60 sec DB) One of the characteristics of the best...continually reinventing yourself.
• 21:00 - 21:28 (28 sec DB) We live in a place where the opportunity...that’s one of the core messages I hope people will take.
• 28:50 - 29:31 (41 sec DB) How many people come up to you...hopeful person that you are as an entrepreneur.
• 50:37 - 51:27 (50 sec DB) All of a sudden the idea of the world...there’s so many great lessons.

QUOTES

1. It’s not the job of an employer to keep every employee amused all the time. - DB
2. One of the things that keeps me excited about every day is that I get to learn. - DB
3. Because of the terror businesses have that there’s a run of opportunity, they don’t experience the deepness, the richness, that comes from expertise. - DB 
4. We live in the land of opportunity. - DB
5. When it comes to making money, and charging people for things, you need to be an expert. - DB
6. Successful people are one, maybe two, significant mistakes from being homeless again. - DB
7. There’s no disadvantage in loving your work. In fact, it’s fantastic if you love your work, but that’s not the only criteria. - DB
8. There’s a difference between turning your passion into a business and loving the work that you do. - DB
9. How many people admire your life as an entrepreneur, but have no idea what it really takes to be successful? - DB 
10. Experts are really good at beating themselves up. That’s why they keep learning because they’re so afraid of losing their edge. - DB
11. You don’t typically work hard at relevance unless irrelevance is terrifying to you. - DB
12. The biggest driver for relevance is knowing what irrelevance feels like. - DB
13. The core of developing expertise comes from noticing patterns. - DB
14. The deeper you dig, the more there is to see and talk about. - DB

Podcast Transcript

David Baker 0:02 The first call I got was from this firm in Chicago. So I went out to buy some new clothes, I drove my really nasty car, parked it quite a ways away so they wouldn't see it. And for some reason, they were drawn to what they thought they could learn from me. And they said, Well, if we decide to work together, and we think we'd like to well, how would you package your service? And I made up the service on site. And they said, How much will it cost? and I made up a price. top my head is if I'd been doing this for years, and as I drove home, that was the first time I felt like, Oh, I could be an expert. Marc Gutman 0:44 podcasting, Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. We are talking to David C. Baker, the expert on expertise. Kind of meta, isn't it? All right. All right now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce this show. Today's episode we are talking to David C. Baker. David is an author, speaker and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written five books, advise 900 plus firms in keynoted conferences in 30 plus countries. His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today Businessweek and Inc. magazine, in his work has also been featured in The New York Times, where he was referred to as the experts expert. David helps entrepreneurial creatives make better business decisions about their positioning and marketing, and how they structure their roles in the firm, and how to benchmark their financial performance. And we're gonna get into that in today's show. His most recent book is called the business of expertise for entrepreneurial experts convert insight to impact and wealth. And he also co hosts a very entertaining podcast, which is the most listened to podcasts in the Creative Services field, the two Bob's podcast with his partner Blair enns. As you'll hear in today's episode, an expert has narrow focus. And for creative firms like mine, and yours, David C. Baker is an expert. I've long followed his thought leadership and teachings and it's a real treat to have him here on the show. And during our conversation I learned so much much from him. This episode is chock full of insight and well, expertise. I hope you like it. So I'm here with David C. Baker, who is known as the expert on expertise. David, what is an expert on expertise? David Baker 3:22 Hmm, that's me. That's a smartass answer, right. It's somebody who helps experts step outside of themselves to help them frame the right positioning for their expertise to find clients to help surface and then monetize their IP. So really an advisor to experts. That's that's how I think of myself. I didn't come up with that title. It was something that a writer in the New York Times used and I thought, darn, I'm going to use that that sounds pretty good. Marc Gutman 3:51 Yeah, like it. It sums it up, and it's really concise. And so, you know, when David was was an eight-year-old kid, were you know, an expert to experts at that Time or did you think you want to be an expert to experts at that time what was going on for you? David Baker 4:03 Negative to all of those questions. When I was an eight-year-old kid, when I was a five-year-old kid, I was getting dropped into a Spanish. And of course, Spanish was not my primary language dropped into a Spanish kindergarten in San Jose, Costa Rica and just kind of learned on the fly. I see parents teaching their kids how to swim by dropping them in the pool. And I've, I've always wanted to do that with somebody else's kid not my own. And just to see, see what happens, right, and that's kind of what happened for me. My parents were medical missionaries. And so they needed they were US citizens, they needed to learn Spanish. So they took me to Costa Rica with them for the year while they learned it, and I got in a Spanish kindergarten and then number six, we went to live with this tribe of Mayan Indians way up in the mountains of Guatemala. Very, very primitive. And here I am with my parents and my one brother. The other brother hadn't been born yet. And I'm just trying to figure out the world. I didn't know the US existed. I was about as far from being an expert as you could be, I think. Marc Gutman 5:11 Yeah. So take us back there a little bit. I mean, what was life like there? I mean, did you have you know, modern amenities? Were you kind of in the proverbial Fach hut and dirt floor? Like what was your living conditions? David Baker 5:24 Well, we lived in a, it was a wooden frame house on top of an Adobe. So that first floor was an Adobe home. And then the second floor was a wooden framed home. And this was with this tribe of there were 20,000 Mayan Indians of this particular Conjobal tribe, they were called. And we lived in this village and there was no running water. There was no electricity there. The roads were sort of dirt paths, and there were no stores to speak of. So it was very, I mean, it didn't. It just felt normal at the time. until I moved to the US, I didn't really realize that it was very, very primitive. We grew all our own stuff and made everything from scratch. And it was where I learned really to be a little bit more self-sufficient and to be grateful with simpler things. I've been completely spoiled at the other end of the spectrum now, but at the time, it was fantastic It was one of those days where you could envision sending your kid off to camp right? But this is the way we lived all the time. And it was so formative for me I'm still discovering ways in which those early days have shaped to be for sure. Marc Gutman 6:39 Yeah. And so what were some of those ways? I mean, what really influenced you I mean, you know, I think it's common as we get older to really trace back our our influences our roots. I mean, I know I have a ton my my version of your story was you know Thrasher magazine and skateboards, you know, that's right. That's, that's what shaped me. And then I eventually took me out to California but for you what was going on in Costa Rica with a completely different culture mean, what were you picking up on? David Baker 7:06 So I think some of those early forces that shaped who I am, I'm an introvert. I don't know if that was picked up environmentally or not. But there weren't many kids like me. So I spent a lot of time myself. I certainly loved enjoying, I loved reading. I love to build things. I understood, at a very deep level, how important it was to think about the future and to be prepared. Because you didn't know really what was coming, there might be a hurricane that would hit and close off the paths to the bigger city. The bigger city was a five and a half hour drive away 60 miles. And then so you basically have to figure out how to eat without getting to any of those stores. Figure out how to refrigerate things. If you decided to kill a cow, like how are you going to keep this meat for a while. So just some basic, self-sufficient See without some of the assumptions that come along with it. I think also just the role of education, formal education in our lives. I didn't go to formal school, except for a couple years until I was in 10th. Grade came to the US. So in 78, I guess that was. And I don't really feel like I missed much. I mean, I missed a little bit of the socialization that comes but I think there's something about the modern educational experience is a mix of taking care of kids and babysitting them and educating them. And we're certainly realizing that and COVID-19, right, where parents, they're not just missing the fact that their kids may not be learning as well, but they're missing the fact that somebody else is taking care of their kids too. So all of those things really influenced me all the way up to things like I hear phrases bounced around in our modern economy, things like just follow your heart and success. We'll come. And I'm thinking, Wait, that's just bullshit like that only works in a developed economy. It doesn't work across the world, you have all these other people, they can't they know what's on their heart. But they can't afford just to follow that they've got to go out in the field and work hard just so they can eat. And if they have extra time and money or things to trade, then they can do other things. But we have to we, we've developed a unique way of looking at things that build so many assumptions into it. And you can see how that comes crashing down. During a pandemic, when our natural world order is just turned upside down. It's crazy. Marc Gutman 9:43 That's so like, so insightful. I mean, I'm kind of like my head's racing right now with this idea that you know, you're right. We hear that all the time. Follow your heart, follow your passions, and how it's just so specific and narrow to a very small group of people. And I even sometimes wonder, I mean, In some of the developed nations, I mean, I think, you know, I was get the feeling that people really enjoy the work the actual physicality of it. Now, I'm sure there's some instances where they don't and it's, it's the conditions aren't great. But they, you know, and maybe I'm wrong. And I'd love to get your take on this. I've always had this perception that they're not sitting around saying, like, what's my passion and being so indulgent, and dare I say, sometimes a little arrogant, right? We're like, you know, how dare we, you know, sit around thinking about what our passions are when there's other things to be to be done in terms of work and survival and sustenance. David Baker 10:33 And passion is important, right? But it's not everything and maybe, maybe you just need a job where they treat you fairly. And there's an even exchange for the amount of labor you put in. And that's enough, right? It doesn't have to be more than that. I there's so many things to untangle there. It's wrong to mistreat people. It's wrong to not give them equal opportunities, but it's not the job of an employer to keep everything Employee amused all the time. And what we're going through right now brings it has this leveling force about it. So we're understanding for instance, how difficult it is, if you don't have basic internet access, we understand how difficult it is if you don't have a spot in your room to work from home, we understand what we're going to miss about working together is just surfacing all of these opportunities to learn what's really important, what's really critical. And I'm grateful for having grown up in an era where I learned I was forced to learn some of those things. And the key for me is when my life gets a lot softer and easier, which it is now is to still be really deeply grateful for everything I have and not take it so much for granted or assume that I deserve those sorts of things. Marc Gutman 11:57 I love that too. I mean, do you have any insight on how you how you keep that that edge about you how you how you avoid you or even like your children right I think my me and my kids I mean, for lack of a better word we've gotten soft, you know, be right, we were indulgent. And you have any thoughts on on how to maintain that edge or maintain that, you know, self awareness, maybe you know, Im not sure? David Baker 12:12 Self-awareness for sure. I've worn out three therapists trying to be more self-aware of myself. There seems to be a big chunk of our lives and how we spend our money is meant to chase familiarity and comfort and the expected result. And we haven't somehow figured out how to be flexible and nimble and accepting of things and I definitely think that carries over to child-rearing for sure I'm we have two grown kids. I'm not saying we were the best parents at all, but I do know that We worked hard at helping them adapt to different circumstances and not rescue them from some of that. So, so understanding also I see it when it carries over to help people run their businesses, which is kind of in the business line is helping people think through how to run their businesses differently. It's, you see it real distinct difference here? Yeah. On the one hand, you have firms that achieve a certain level of success. And they work very hard to maintain it, and they're disciplined at it and so on. And then you have other firms who don't let their intermediate success keep them from continuing to experiment. They're not afraid of losing some of what they have accomplished in order to press the envelope and gain additional things. Another way to say that is that one of the biggest hindrances to additional growth for me is the level of success I've already achieved. Because I don't want to do innately I don't want to do things that will cause me to lose that or take a step backwards. Instead of realizing that there's this, there's this cycle you, you're going to make significant mistakes. But if you never take risks, then you're never going to have the upside of those mistakes that you're going to make as well. And I, one of the things that keeps me learning every day, or keeps me excited about being in every day is the fact that I get to learn and experience and think and articulate and that's what keeps me alive, at least to the extent that I am alive. Marc Gutman 14:38 Yeah, and, you know, it just makes me think that this idea of continually pushing continually experimenting and pushing ourselves I mean, when you apply that to the businesses you work with, which are primarily creative firms, like how does that look like what what are ways that you've seen it both work well And also not work well. David Baker 15:02 Yeah, the probably the biggest, most widely seen mistake that firms that I work with make is their positioning. So they craft a positioning that's as broad as possible so that in their minds, they can consistently turn those opportunities into, into work into money. And they're against this notion of narrowing their opportunity and digging deeper in there because they're afraid that throughout the history of their business, and then also when they look back on their business, their biggest fear is I didn't have enough opportunity. And so they craft their positioning and their service offerings, such that it's wide open, we're, we're open for business, we're a full-service firm, whatever you need, you just tell us we'll figure out how to do that for you and make money in the process. And because of This terror, they have the run of opportunity. They don't experience the deepness, the richness that comes from expertise. And that's where my work with experts comes into play. And it is sad because you look, just pretend for a second with yourself or myself, let's say I'm looking, let's say it's me, and I'm older. I'm on the salmon the last third of my life. And I decide to get reflected for a moment and I look back over my life and say, You know what, David, you really didn't meet your potential. Why is that? And I'll be faced with a couple of options. One of those is, well, David, is it because you didn't have enough opportunities? And that is just never the case. Not in the world that you and I live in or your listeners live in. Their opportunity is everywhere. We live in the land of freakin opportunity. It's like it never runs out. No, that is not why I will not have been as successful as I could have been. It will be because I wasn't choosy enough. I didn't say No enough to many of those opportunities and then buckle down and master something. And so you have to buckle down and master something, but you bring a broader context to it, so that you're not just a weirdo. And that broader context is all of the interests that are in your life that you're constantly exploring. But when it comes to making money and charging people for things, you need to be an expert. Right. And and that's the the one area that it seems like experts tend to really struggle with Marc Gutman 17:31 Yeah and what do you think that is? David Baker 17:32 I think it's their fear of opportunity. They think they're going to run out of opportunity, whereas people I look at my life, I've been successful enough at what I do. There's still stuff left on the table for sure. And I've been more successful than a bunch so I would just say it's successful enough, right? But, but this what I do for a living doesn't define me I there are 15 other things I could have done and I could have been successful enough. Any of those things, so this isn't. So if and if you feel that way about your career, then you're not as worried about wasting it, you're not as worried about making a mistake and like, oh, shoot, I shouldn't have done that. Because you feel like what's the worst that can happen? you kind of lose your career and you start another one. It's, we're all wrapped up in this sense of who we need to be and how we have to protect what we have. And I've always felt like, successful people are one or maybe two really significant mistakes away from being homeless again. And so if you picture yourself at that point, what would happen to your psyche? If you were homeless, would you be okay? I'd be okay. I would climb back from it. So I'm not going to work at protecting everything I have. I'm going to work at continuing to learn and experiment and take risks. Marc Gutman 18:56 You know, thank you for that. There's just so much to unpack at least As far as I'm concerned, you know, I'm, I'm admittedly one of those people that has bought into the narrative that you know, you need to find your life's work, you need to find your calling. And thereby, when you do that, it wraps all this emotion into your work. And to your point, it becomes your identity and who you are. And when you have a misstep at work, that becomes a misstep that you were personally it creates baggage around your story. And so this idea of enjoying appreciating, dare I say, even loving your work that that's okay. But there has to be a limit to it. And you know, any thoughts or ideas on how to distance yourself from it? Or is it simply just mindset? David Baker 19:42 I think one of the characteristics of some of the best thinkers and doers are, they don't have this one, two or three people or firms that they want to emulate. They know what those quote unquote best firms do. And there are certain elements of it that they think about and might want to emulate and so on. But they, they charge forward and they blaze a new trail, often borrowing from the best practices of sisters sort of industries, and say, I'm going to be different in a lot of a lot of ways. And that's going to make it easier for people to distinguish between me and my competitors. It will make it easier for me to develop unique insight, maybe make it easier for me to develop my own IP. So there's something about looking ahead and continuing continually reinventing yourself as opposed to looking next to you to see what other people are doing and worrying about whether you're losing ground to them. As if it's some big comparison game. We most of your listeners, I would imagine are in North America, maybe some in Australia or Europe, and But we live in a place where the opportunity is just staggering and, and the freedom we have to invent ourselves and get other people to give us money. So that we can keep doing the things we're really good at wondering the era in history for that to happen, right. And, and it's a shame to waste that and not to continually build innovation into the way you approach your work. That's, that's one of the core messages I hope people will take. Marc Gutman 21:28 Yeah, and it's crazy to think just to your point that we can just invent different things and kind of come up with new businesses and, and offer different different points of advice. So, you know, I do want to go back a little bit to where you were in Costa Rica, and you said it was 10th grade and you came back to the States. And where did you land like, what was that? Like? Did you just kind of reintegrate into society in a way you went? Or like What was that all about? David Baker 21:58 I reintegrated not very well. Well, I'd say if it's pretty awkward. I went to a school called Ben Lippen high school. It was in Asheville, North Carolina, it was this private boarding school of about 200 kids across four grades. Most of them were, their parents were ex pats, they were ambassadors, or they were MKS, that kind of thing. So all of these people came from different backgrounds. And it wasn't all that odd there, because there wasn't any norm. But when I got out into society, it was Yeah, it was pretty strange. It was weird. I didn't want to head down the medical missionary path that my parents were I wanted to teach in an academic setting. So I, you know, finished high school, went to college, did five years of full time graduate work studying mainly ancient languages. And that's where I was going to hit. I was going to teach Syriac, Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Latin and so on and, and about halfway through my graduate work. looked around at the academic environment and realized that for the first time, there wasn't the sort of academic freedom that I had dreamed about. It was, yeah, it was academic freedom to do anything you want, as long as you end up here at this place, and that world has gotten even more polarized and, and progressive leaning than before, and I just felt like okay, this just isn't gonna work. There isn't going to be this sort of academic freedom that I really craved. So, but I was far enough into the program that I decided I really needed to finish that. But then I'm sitting here wondering, okay, what am I going to do when I finish and I looked around to find my way through school, I was managing an academic bookseller doing editorial work there, decided to start an agency just because the examples of communications that I saw were really poor and I just didn't think it would be that difficult to improve that world. didn't know anything about It never worked at any of those firms didn't know anybody. It worked at one of those firms. So it was trial by fire and learning. So this was a firm that we started ran for six years about 16 people and never got really big. And it was a great learning experience. My so I ran the firm started, the firm ran the firm, and I did most of the copywriting, which is kind of a natural progression from my love of words, and, and the research side, and that's how I got into this field. And then from there, it was a really strange set of circumstances I I was invited to help it to to advise some of my peers. And I didn't really have all that much to add. It wasn't that I was running an amazing firm. But I did learn really quickly what was working in their lives, and I was able to share that with additional people as well. So over a six month period, I switched from running an agency to helping other people run an agency and and then the next iteration was really working across Professional Services and helping experts think about how to run their firm. So it's been a long, I never could have charted this path. And I see that I see the stepping stones looking back. But I certainly that many of those steps were not intentional. I just simply was in the right place and saw how this next iteration of my life could use something that I've enjoyed doing in the past and think Steve Jobs said, you can't really connect the dots moving forward, but you can connect the dots looking back. And that's definitely true for my experience. Marc Gutman 25:31 And so to some degree, it sounds like you were following your passion in a way or you're following your heart. Certainly with there being an economic outcome to it. And not just being willy nilly. I mean, would that be accurate to say at that time you were to seeing where things took you? David Baker 25:46 Yes, for sure. You know, but along the way, there are things that I would probably love doing more than I'm doing now, but there is not an economic value to them. So it's Mix, there's no disadvantage and loving your work. In fact, it's fantastic if you love your work and I really love most of my work. But that's not the only criteria. So you think about somebody who loves riding bikes all the time. And they love it so much they decided to quit their job and and open a bike shop. Well running a bike shop, it requires completely different skills and running a bike than riding a bike and enjoying that. So it's just you know, it's there's a difference between turning your passion into a business and loving the work that you do. Marc Gutman 26:33 Yeah, a little known fact all the listeners out there. My father didn't quit his job, but he did love riding bikes, and he did start a bike shop and it went terribly bad wasn't it? He didn't know he didn't really know about running businesses and he didn't know about running a bike shop. So there you go is a good example very poignant. I appreciate that. Yeah. And so what were some of those things are or are some of those things that you kind of alluded to that you love? But are economically viable for you? David Baker 27:03 Well, I love flying I fly airplanes and helicopters, I and I was a corporate pilot for one brief stint of a year and a half. But you don't kind of you don't have the impact that you would like you don't make the money that you'd like. I love woodworking. I love photography. I've done that professionally, but it's only the top 1% of photographers, you know, make a million dollars a year. So those are this. So you just kind of relegate those two hobbies right and say this I've learned a lot from this. This is I'm so glad I have this experience, but I'm not going to turn it into a business. I'm going to have a business that thousands of people would recognize has a value and they consistently want to pay me good money for me to speak to their situation. And that's that's a great business idea. Now I'm not talking about a b2c business. I'm talking about a b2b professional services business the area I speak to. But that's, that's how my thinking unfolds on that. Marc Gutman 28:04 Yeah. And I just kind of want to let that hang out there a little bit. Because I do just think that is such an important insight for people to understand that, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, most of our businesses are not .orgs. And we do need to make money and we do have, you know, we need to bring in income and things like that. And so it can't all just be this kind of fantasy that the narrative I think there's a narrative out there that you know, much the way you started this, do what you love, and everything will follow and it's gonna be this amazing sort of Nirvana lifestyle. And it just, it just isn't that way. And I think you sharing your experience really highlights that and some of the choices that we need to make as creatives and business owners. David Baker 28:46 Yeah, and as a business owner, you know, life is not, my goodness, how many people come up to you and admire your life as an entrepreneur, but at the same time, have no idea what it really takes to be successful. You like the risks you take when you sign a long lease or you take out a line of credit, the difficult challenging conversations you've got to have with some of your team members, the pressure you feel at night if you're about ready to lose a client relationship that's important to your business. It's not all roses, right? But all of those things together, make you the sort of intelligent, resilient, hopeful person that you are as an entrepreneur and what a life you can have. If you approach it from the perspective of being grateful for being disciplined and being flexible about what this business is going to bring to you. It's, I'm really grateful to be a part of this world. Marc Gutman 29:48 Yeah, and I think you might have alluded to it, but do you have like a regular gratitude practice that you partake in? David Baker 29:53 I don't, I probably should. And I've, I've learned about some ways that I could do That but gratitude is something that's a part of my life regularly. And I, I probably stop and think about it's not programmed into my day, but I probably think about it anywhere from two to half a dozen times a day, I would think. And it just helps me relax and stopped the craving and, and recognize that while this is here while I can enjoy this while I'm on this vacation or while I'm enjoying this particular new thing I bought or whatever it is, I'm going to really appreciate it but it could all go away too and I'll be fine. Marc Gutman 30:37 Yeah, and I'll reflect back I think you do have a gratitude practice. It just comes easy to you David Baker 30:41 already right. Maybe Marc Gutman 30:42 in your innate personality and so, you know, I think you do This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is and without the generous support of Wildstory This show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. You know, I keep thinking back to those that early part of your career where you're describing, you know, starting your own firm then being asked to help you know, advise other firms At what point did you first feel like an expert or know that you were an expert? David Baker 32:05 Yeah. So I was I subscribed to a publication called creative business, it was run by Cam foot out of Boston. And part of the deal was that your subscription included the ability to call him and ask any question. I think it was his way of staying in touch with the marketplace. So I would do that from time to time. And one day I said, Hey, cam, why don't you Why don't you provide advisory services to your subscribers? I think they would be really open to getting deeper, personalized advice from you. He wasn't interested at that point. But he said, Why don't you do it? And I, I that had never occurred to me at all. And before I could even respond to him, he said, let's put an atom by publication. I will I'll do it for free, but you just give me 10% of everything you make. I didn't think much would come of it. But oddly enough, people started calling and The first call I got was this I was living in northern Indiana at the time. And the first call I got was from this firm in Chicago. So I went out to buy some new clothes, I drove my really nasty car, parked it quite a ways away, so they wouldn't see it. And for some reason, they were drawn to what they thought they could learn from me. And they said, Well, if we decide to work together, and we think we'd like to, well, how would you package your service? And I made up the service on site And they said, How much will it cost? and I made up a price top my head is if I'd been doing this for years, and as I drove home, that was the first time I felt like, Oh, I could be an expert. I have been paying attention to running my own firm. I've learned from my mistakes, and I've learned from what other people have done well, and they want an outside perspective on how to do it better. I can help them and they are willing to pay me money for that. Wow, that feels really strange. So that was the very beginning of it for me. And since then it's been a long, winding road through expertise with highs and lows, you know, mixed with standing in front of 5000 people live on TV and feeling like I'm completely nailing it to other times been embarrassed because I don't have the answer to a question at the end of the presentation. And letting all of those different experiences shape who I am and drive me forward. Marc Gutman 34:29 Yeah, and you know, and you've written a book called The business of expertise. I love it. I've read it twice now. It's dense, you know, there's a lot of grip. It's easy to read. And I don't want to make it sound like it's not but there's just, it's like every page is packed with information. And one of the things that I really took from it and loved about it was that you describe it with one instance you describe that for you being an expert, or the definition of being an expert is being able to stand up in you know, give a give a keynote, give a webinar, and then stand up and take questions and feel feel like you're in the pocket so to speak, you know that you can take whatever comes your way. But it was really interesting to hear you even just mentioned in that last, that last little segment that like sometimes you don't always have the answer, but I think it's an please. You know, let me know if I've got this right. I think it's the confidence to stand there anyways, and get involved in that conversation that really helps to define what an expert or who an expert is. David Baker 35:26 Yeah, right. Exactly. And that it's a good way to say it, because let's say that there were two questions that the crowd asked that you kind of mumbled your way through and didn't have a clear, articulate answer right off the top your head. Well, instead of being discouraged about, I mean, you have to acknowledge that you kind of blew it right there. Probably not as many people noticed it as you think they did. But use that to drive you forward. And so now the next task at hand is figure out what your point of view is on those two things where you mumbled the answer and, and that's where the continuous learning takes place and where. And then if you begin to publish that all of a sudden you stand out from the other experts who are just burdened in their day to day solving of client questions, and are not carefully articulating their point of view on things and in making that public. Marc Gutman 36:18 Yeah. And so what's hard about being an expert? What don't we know that we haven't talked about so far? David Baker 36:24 It's hard to be an expert because the kind of advice that you're giving, it's hard to separate it from who you are as a person. So if somebody doesn't respond well to your admonitions, your advice, then it's pretty easy to take it personally. The other thing is that the inner critic is frequently beating, you know, tapping you on the shoulder and saying you're really not worth that much money per day or that person paid you this much and you solve their issue in in two phone calls. over an hour and 45 minutes, you really think that you should have charged him that kind of money or am I still as relevant as I was 10 years ago? You know, I think experts are really good at constantly beating themselves up that's why they keep learning because they're so paranoid about losing their edge or maybe I'm just maybe this is just a whole string of confessions for me and other people don't feel that way but but that's certainly how I feel. Marc Gutman 37:29 Yeah, no, I feel that too and I was so hoping actually here on my little notes, I was gonna get into the this idea of relevance and so I'm so glad that you brought it up because I do think about relevance in so many ways, you know, everything from you know, just the basic Am I still relevant is what I'm talking about. Still still timely, you know, are people learning it in a different way everything to as I grow older, I worry about relevance. And so how do you continue to just just tackle this idea of relevance and stay relevant and I love I love and in your book Yeah, I think I'll paraphrase but it says something that effect is that is to ask about relevance, it assumes that you were relevant at one point anyways. First, yeah, so we'll assume that. David Baker 38:15 Yeah, well, you don't typically work hard at relevance unless irrelevance is terrifying to you. So if you aren't putting yourself if you aren't standing naked in front of people frequently, then you don't have enough incentive to be relevant because you can just take the same lame average clients that come to you who aren't pressing the envelope and asking really tough questions and critiquing how you deal with them and so on. So, you know, I, I guess another I don't mean this to be cute, but the the biggest driver for relevance to me is knowing what irrelevance feels like it's constantly being at the edge edge of irrelevance and being willing to reinvent myself all the time. Which means I'm going to throw away some things where I have gotten very comfortable in leading client relationships, because they're slipping in relevance. And that's a lot of hard work. It's not the easiest, the easiest thing is just to keep mailing it in and doing the same things without adapting along with the world. Look at how Google Google's presence has changed how we work and how we think about expertise, and how that carries over to our lives. You think about expertise now it's, it's basically free. It's immediate, and it's very specific, those three things. So in a world where that is what defines expertise, how in the world am I going to carve out a place where I can charge X amount per day, right? So it's, I love those innate tensions that come with it. And after I figured this tension out, there'll be other ones that will just be slipping in from all angles trying to cut my feet out from under me. That's the kind of you have to be willing to be in that fight regularly or, or you're just gonna slowly die. Marc Gutman 40:10 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you and you mentioned this idea of like, you know, you have to stand up and be, you know, willing to be critiqued and to be questioned by clients. Like, how do you handle that when that happens? I mean, I always find that to be like one of the hardest things, you know, like, you don't want to be argumentative and defensive. You want to hear them and you want to take it because a lot of times that can make you better, but then I sometimes feel vulnerable. And then I'm like, Hey, I got to like, prove that I'm the expert here. So how do you recommend or how do you personally handle that? David Baker 40:40 I don't handle it very well, in the sense that I have to work really hard to soften my natural reactions to it. I get my feelings hurt pretty easily. My podcast partner, Blair Enns taught me something that helps me a lot. And he said, All right, David, are you afraid of The truth of course, it's stupid to say you're afraid of the truth. So no, I'm not afraid of the truth. I want the truth. So part B of that is okay, if you want the truth. If you're not afraid of the truth, then Wouldn't it be better to know the truth as soon as possible, so that you can make adjustments? And, yeah, I'd have to say, I agree with that, right. And even when somebody's critique is not wrapped Well, it's, it's full of either a personal attack or them not looking at themselves, or whatever that is, I still think as an expert, you owe it to your own development to find the nugget of what's true. and embrace it without defending yourself. And then don't over apologize for it. But do acknowledge it is a defenseless way as possible, which means you're probably going to if you're writing an email responding to somebody like that, you're probably going to have to to rewrite it four times, and then you send it and you reread it later, and it's like, Ah, that was good that I acknowledged the truth of that. And I wanted to learn, but I'm still holding fast to some of the things that I believe that maybe maybe the real issue is that they just don't want to accept those statements that I'm making. And instead, they're falling back on how those were delivered. We having said all that, as experts, I think you need to worry a little bit less than is normal about how those things are delivered. The deeper your expertise, the less important how you deliver those things are always think of that TV show Dr. House who had the worst bedside manner of of all, but he still had a thriving practice because he was so good at what he did people overlook that. So there's a mix here. You don't have to be sweet order takers all the time. You can afford to be a little bit bristly, but you don't Want to do anything that unnaturally distracts from the good that you could be accomplishing with your clients? Marc Gutman 43:08 Yeah, I like that. The bigger expert you are, you can you can, you don't have to be as nice. I totally, totally agree. And, you know, before I ran into a lot of the work you were doing around positioning and content, and you and your podcast partner Blair, you know, I used to, like, I just kind of believed in this narrative that like, expertise just sort of happens, you know, and that people just either fall into it, or like, it was just like kind of this this thing that organically happened and you have these experts, but what I've really got from your teachings and a lot of your content, your books and things like that is that expertise in becoming an expert is really an intentional act like you have to like really think about it and work towards it. presuming that is accurate, you know, how would would you advise that people really take those first steps And start their way to becoming an expert as far as the way you define it. David Baker 44:06 Yeah, the core of that developing expertise comes from noticing patterns. And probably the biggest mistake that would be experts make is that they don't narrow their positioning enough. So that pattern matching is possible. So I only work with certain kinds of expert firms, which means that I can easily compare them and learn from that experience and see those patterns and write about them and so on. So that would be the first thing is to make sure that your positioning is narrow enough. So that pattern matching is possible. And then the second really critical component I just can't see developing expertise without this thing as well. And that's to begin articulating what you think it doesn't the order isn't figured out and then articulate it that's not how it happens. It's the clarification the clarity comes in. The articulation so you just have to commit to doing that. So there are 40,400, I looked it up this morning 40,400 people have signed up to get my weekly email. And the way my workflow is I've got to come up with a consistent stream of ideas to write about at least one, sometimes two a week. And there are at different stages at the moment about 370 different topic ideas. And you would think that after doing this for 25 years, you'd begin to run out of things to talk about, but it's the opposite. I, I've never had more things that I could talk about. And that will continue. I'll I'll be very sad when I stop this because I won't have an outlet for these ideas. So the deeper you dig, the more there is to see and the more there is to think and talk about and if you aren't committed to if there's back to this education thing was young kids. If there was a One thing I would try to encourage my kids to do, and that would be to write to keep a journal to have a blog as a nine-year-old, whatever it is, I just want them to continue. I wanted to think out loud because it just doesn't happen well unless there are other people listening. Marc Gutman 46:15 And then, so from what I heard, they're starting the path to effectively thinking out loud developing expertise in your specific area and then putting it out on some sort of platform, whether that be writing you mentioned your list, I know you have a podcast and you're very active with your thought leadership, you know, there's probably no way people can't learn about you or what you're talking about, depending on the way they consume content. David Baker 46:44 Right. Yeah. And, and the fear of irrelevance. The fear of looking stupid, the fear of not having enough business, those three fears should be enough to drive you to keep doing better and to keep going deep. In deeper, and if you love the process of learning, then this development is not a chore. It's the core of what you do. And the fact that clients are willing to pay you money to get inside your head and see what you're learning is just a complete bonus. That's why I just feel so grateful for being a knowledge worker, so to speak. Marc Gutman 47:24 Yeah. And can you expand a little bit on that business development comment? I know a lot of people it is a chore and a lot of people dread it, and it is. It's hard work. I talked to people as I was talking to someone this morning about that, and they're reflecting that to me. So can you expand on that just a little bit more about how to not make it so? David Baker 47:42 Yeah, well, for me, the fact that I have 40 some thousand people listening so to speak, is it's just this privilege. It's this responsibility I have, but really, they're just along for the ride as I keep learning more and more. So when I have to, that's how you would normally think about it when I have to write another insight piece and send it out to all these people. It's not a chore, it's, I can't wait to quit doing something for these clients, because now I'm going to get a chance to go back to school again, and learn something new. And this will be one more tool in my toolbox that I'll be able to use with clients who pay me money. So for me, it's an opportunity to learn it's not a chore, it's an opportunity to learn. And if your lead generation plan isn't designed like that, then you need to redesign it. If instead, you think lead generation is calling eight people cold call calling eight people today, then you've got the wrong plan because you're not excited about it. If you're not excited about your lead generation plan, it's not going to get done right. Marc Gutman 48:57 Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's it's it's hard work. If it's if it's a chore, right and, and it's and it's the work of it's the easy work is the stuff that we gravitate towards. And I can speak to myself, like, I wake up in the mornings, and I can easily write 1000 2000 words, or I can come and show up to this podcast, and I could do it all day long. But to your point, cold calling is just no fun. Right? And so to be shy away from that kind of stuff, perfect. And so, David, you know, as we get into a new, I don't even know, like a new era of business. I mean, things are changing. And I think that, you know, everyone realizes that that the way we do business is having a significant shift. What does that mean for the business of expertise? Where do you see this going? And what significant changes do you think you're going to see coming up here in the next, let's call it six to 18 months? David Baker 49:53 Well, the pandemic has certainly changed things in the sense that not my in-person events are happening. And then 90% of my engagements when we're in person as well. So I've used this with a little bit of terror for a couple of weeks. And then, and then for me, it was like, Ah, this is great. This is forcing me to reinvent how I deliver this stuff. So let's build a, a professionally switched TVs studio with a fiber optic line. And that way, the production value will support the sort of fees that I need to get for to continue working with my clients. That's part of it. And the other is just how the world all of a sudden the idea of the world changing slowly is out the window, right. And so we need to be resilient businesses that have as few single point of failures as possible. We need to have them run well so that we have enough money to pivot. We need flexible arrangements with our people. We need to be selling something That doesn't require a dependence on supplier relationships that's in our heads. That's insight that can continue to be given. We we can't ignore positioning and lead generation because when you try to spin that flywheel up, it takes six 9, 12 months to spin it up. So it needs to always be running. So that when you call on it at a moment's notice, it's already there. There's so many great lessons. Marc Gutman 51:27 Yeah. And as we go into the pandemic, it's hard to think where this will go and I really resonate with this idea that I think everyone felt this moment feels probably still this moment of despair that my world's been turned upside down. But I also really resonate with your you know, kind of realization like hey, here's an opportunity to do things differently. And, and I really implore those listening to think about how can you do what you do and deliver it differently and if you can't, you might have to start making some hearts. decisions about your business and I will say, David that I was on your webinar I think last Friday and there was a quick moment where the it was like a kind of behind the scenes peek as we're getting ready and I was very envious of your studio it looked very awesome and it was very very click it looks good. So you know as we come to a close here, David You know, when you think about where you've come and becoming an expert and where you're going if you were to look back and if you were to run into an eight-year-old David back in Costa Rica, what do you think he'd say if he saw you now? David Baker 52:41 I think he'd be proud of the fact that somebody who was unaware of so many cultural taboos and normal ways of working kind of learned to adapt, and I think he'd be proud you know, I feel like I basically have accomplished some good things, but there are so many things left to do so. I don't know, I don't think his expectations were all that high at the moment back then. So I think he'd be pleased. Marc Gutman 53:09 Thank you. And where can people in our listeners learn more about you potentially sign up for that list. We'll certainly link to that in the show notes. But if you want to go ahead and let people know where they can learn more about David C. Baker, please go ahead. David Baker 53:22 So the book, The fifth book called The business of expertise, that you can find that expertise.is, expertise.is website. And then if you want to know more about my advisory business, it's DavidCBaker.com And that'd be the easiest place to sign up for those free emails. Marc Gutman 53:46 And that is David C. Baker. I love what he said about staying relevant and continuing to experiment. challenge ourselves and keep pushing the envelope. If you're feeling too comfortable, perhaps you need to start Thinking deeper, and writing more. I also agree with his assessment that the greatest skill anyone can have in today's and the future business economy is thinking, how to think and how to articulate it. If any of this resonated with you, I highly recommend his book The business of expertise, which we will link to in the show notes for easy reference. Thank you again to David C. Baker. Remember becoming an expert is an intentional act, and not something that just happens. Go out and be the expert I know you can be. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like Big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny

BGBS 035: Sarah Kauss | S'well | What Would You Do If You Could Not Fail?

Founder and Chairwoman of S’well, Sarah Kauss created a new product category when she fused fashion and water bottles. Her business was birthed from a passion to find a way to combat single-use plastics and has now sold over 20 million products since launching. S’well is a brand that my family and I use and as I interviewed Sarah, I had my sleek white S’well on my desk. Sarah has been recognized as a Fortune 40 under 40 honoree and EY Entrepreneurial Winning Woman, while S’well has been named the #1 fastest growing women-led company by Women Presidents Organization. S’well has also received the brand design award from INC magazine and is sold at places such as MOMA and Bloomingdales in New York City. Find out how Sarah has built a global lifestyle brand that is giving back.  Is your water bottle making the world a better place to live?

What we’re talking about

• Creating A Business Based On Passion & Purpose
• Hearing “No” As A Challenge & Pivoting Along The Way
• A Product That Is Literally Changing The World

Creating A Business Based On Passion & Purpose

Sarah had dreamt of becoming an entrepreneur one day, as both of her parents were, but she didn’t feel she had the idea or confidence to do so early on. The aha moment came to her on a mountainside and asked herself what she could create that would tie all of her passions together...fashion, women’s empowerment, and sustainability. The answer was a reusable water bottle. She hadn’t thought the idea of a water bottle was big enough, but combining it with her passion for climate change and understanding mankind’s impact on the planet and how that impact was affecting the climate and other people.  Armed with an idea and a paperweight from her dad which said, “What would you do if you could not fail?,” Sarah decided she would create accidental activities. Sarah created a product for herself and started a marketing plan that was aimed for consumers like her. She was able to rely on her corporate experience as a CPA for Ernst & Young as a resource in finances and utilized her worldview based on her skills and experiences prior to becoming an entrepreneur.  Sarah wanted the design of the S’well bottle to be old fashioned and without bells and whistles. Although her focus was on fashion, she wanted it to be something everyone could use. It took some trial and error to get it right, but after being a consumer for a long time and being observant of other companies, she became a student of the world and understood what the bottle should look like.  Before S’well got its name, it was called Can’t Live Without It. The marketing team laughed at that and together, came up with Swell. Attorneys rejected that and a friend suggested adding the apostrophe in order to have it registered. And the history of S’well began. 

Hearing “No” As A Challenge & Pivoting Along The Way 

S’well isn’t a water bottle, it’s a hydration fashion accessory. The first website Sarah created was mission focused. Her hope was that people would feel as passionate about making an impact as she did, but it had the opposite effect. People would visit the website and feel bad about themselves and leave. Sarah knew she had to pivot and turn it into a fashion website that was beautiful, change the copy, and have people want to spend time on the site and ultimately buy the product that would in turn do something good for the planet. 

A Product That Is Literally Changing The World

S’well products have saved over 4 billion single use water bottles in the last ten years and isn’t stopping anytime soon. With consumers looking to brands to bring a more thoughtful approach, this small step leads to a much bigger impact. Sarah loves the feeling she gets when looking at the S’well bottle and knowing the love and care that has gone into the creation of the product, brand, and company. Knowing the assets, steps, photography that goes into creating this product, makes Sarah appreciate it even more.  What would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail?

LINKS MENTIONED

S’well’s LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/s'well-bottle/ S’well’s Facebook https://www.facebook.com/SwellBottle/  S’well’s Instagram https://www.instagram.com/swellbottle/ 

SPONSOR

Wildstory

TIMESTAMPS

• 36:43 - 37:36 (53 sec SK) -  Bloomingdales said no...great partner and really fun to work with now.
• 9:30 - 10:04 (34 sec SK) -  I was living in New York City for awhile…more impact overall.

QUOTES

1. I was underestimating the size of the market when I created S’well. SK
2. When you force it, it just doesn’t come. SK
3. Any situation you’re in, there’s something to be learned. SK
4. Even if it’s a bad experience, there’s something you can learn that you’ll do different in your venture. SK
5. I needed that fire in my belly to sell, sell, sell in the early days. SK
6. In order to further your mission you have to backup forward facing from it. MG
7. If there’s a way for me to turn this upside down and make a product that’s beautiful and by the way, works better than anything….it could lead to more action and impact overall. SK
8. You have to start somewhere. All little steps have the opportunity to grow if you just put your mind to it. SK
9. Tiny steps grow from support of customers, collaborations and others. SK
10. Each one of our products is like one of my favorite children. SK
11. I still get really excited about our company and our product even this many years and products in. SK
12. I wanted to create accidental activists. SK
13. We aren’t a water bottle, we’re a hydration fashion accessory. SK

Podcast Transcript

Sarah Kauss 0:02 I hired an accountant to come like set up my QuickBooks file, which was like the backbone of my whole system, you know, for the first number of years and sat down and he's like, okay, bring me all the bank statements, and I'll set up the file and get you started. And he goes, No, I told you all the bank statements, and I said, No, this, this is all the statements. And he just looked at me and he's like, how much is the rent of this apartment because you actually have less money in the bank. And then you have to pay rent on the space that we're sitting right now. And of course, I showed him underneath the table. I had all this inventory that was sort of underneath the kitchen table. And I said, Well, that's fine. I've already pre purchased all the inventory for the next six months. I just have to be motivated to get out and sell it. And he's he's looked at me and he's like, but you could get a real job like you don't have to keep doing this. Marc Gutman 0:55 This is the Baby Got Back story podcast, we dive into the story. Behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs, I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a kid from Florida created a completely new category by fusing fashion and water bottles is a way to battle single use plastics and sold millions of units in the process. All right, all right. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts and ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce the show. Better yet, why don't you go ahead and share the show with a friend who you think might enjoy listening. Today's episode we are talking to Sarah Kauss, founder and Chairwoman Well bottle swirl is best known for has now become their iconic fashionable water bottle. They're getting into other related products, complimentary bottles and tumblers cutlery, snack containers and other travel related vessels. And so on was one of those brands that I personally use, and I had no prior connection to other than being a happy customer. Prior to this interview, the sleek white swell sits on my office desk every day, and our family each has our own color specific swell from when we're at home. Sarah is you're about to hear built the company from the ground up is a bootstrap venture. This July 2020. They will celebrate their 10 year anniversary herculean achievement for any business, let alone startup. Sarah has been recognized as a fortune 40 under 40 honoree and he why entrepreneurial winning woman While swell has been named the number one fastest growing woman led company by the woman presidents organization, and honored with the brand Design Award by ink magazine. The bottle has become such a recognizable design that their products are sold at the MoMA museum store in New York City. As an entrepreneur and advocate, Sara is building a global lifestyle brand that gives back. She currently sits on the UNICEF USA New York Regional board and is a member of the 2018 class of Henry Crowne fellows within the Aspen Global Leadership Network at the Aspen Institute. And this is her story. So Sarah, preparing for this interview. It really got me thinking about the first time a water bottle meant something to me. And so when I was a young kid, my grandfather had given me these National Geographic books and the one book that I would stay up late night reading was about His family that went backpacking and I just loved that I thought everything was so cool my family didn't backpack so it was such this like different kind of experience and it was never really talked about it but the one piece of gear that was always like omnipresent every photograph was this like Nalgene water bottle and it was like the milk carton white plastic but the blue lid had always a coveted that water bottle you know I I didn't even get what I don't think until I was in college. But it made me feel like an adventure. It made me feel like a backpacker. Like I was some sort of mountain near Do you remember the first time a water bottle meant something to you? Sarah Kauss 4:37 That's an interesting question. The first time a water bottle meant something to me you know I think for me, the first time a water bottle meant something to me it was when I saw so many people using the single use plastic bottles you know i i went to school in Boulder and always carried a reusable bottle but I don't think that the bottle I carried had any type of meeting, Just the fact that it was reusable and I think that when you asked me that question, the first thing that really comes to mind, are these crystallizing moments where I'd see people you know, clutching on to their, their single use plastic bottle and and just really having not such a positive reaction to it. Marc Gutman 5:16 Yeah. And so what was it about and when did you first become aware that that single use plastic was something bad? I mean, I remember for the longest time, I just didn't know. You know, I would use a single use plastic bottle. I thought that's how you bought water or whatever. And I didn't know it wasn't like, intuitive. I had to be taught. Do you remember the first time that that really hit home for you? Sarah Kauss 5:38 I think the first time it really hit home for me was I was on a family vacation in Peru and we were on fairy world boat ride about an hour and a half from civilization, in a canoe with a motor going to sort of an eco preserve and it was absolutely gorgeous and beautiful and The fish and the being a dolphin. And you it is as gorgeous as you can imagine. And then when you really focused in on the banks of the river, you could see floating water bottles, you know, floating pieces of plastic. And, you know, this is as remote as the place that I had been at that point in my career. And I was taking pictures and next thing I knew, I found myself taking pictures of floating trash instead of the beauty of the landscape because I was so Godsmack by it. Marc Gutman 6:29 How old were you at that time? Sarah Kauss 6:31 Oh, I was probably in my early 30s Marc Gutman 6:36 Yeah. And so you're seeing all this plastic and is that when you resolve to do something about it, or it was well already in existence? Sarah Kauss 6:46 You know, I think swell was in existence in my mind for a while, you know, I was a bit of a restless soul. I wanted to start a company. I didn't think I had a big enough idea. I was reading a lot about the global water. crisis and about, you know how almost a billion people at the time on the planet didn't have access to clean water. I was very passionate about climate change and trying to understand how how, you know, mankind's impact on the planet was, you know, having an impact on on climate change and how that is affecting populations. So sort of thinking and reading and thinking about trends. You know, at the same time that in my career, I was unsettled and thinking like, what can I do about it? And you know, is there a product or company that could solve some of this? So I think I was thinking about swell for a long time until it really crystallized and became a company and a product and a mission for me. But I think for me, personally, I kind of had to percolate on it for a number of years until it kind of came out in the manifest manifestation of the company that that became. Marc Gutman 7:46 Yeah, and it's such an interesting thought to me, because those are some big challenges you just listed those are big problems. And so, you know, there's a story that when I was doing research for this interview about your dad, who gave you a paperweight And on that paper where I thought that was so cool. He said, I'm looking for a note here. Sarah Kauss 8:07 What would you do if you could not fail? Marc Gutman 8:09 Right? And so that is such a big idea. Such a big challenge, hey, I want to take on the environment. Like how did you think that you could do that by starting a water bottle company? Sarah Kauss 8:21 You know, I kind of thought that if I could create accidental activists, so if you know, I, I was an activist, but I wasn't necessarily a dark green tree hugger. You know, I was buying fashionable, you know, handbags and shoes and dresses. And if I could create a product that was an itch thing that people would want and covet, because other people were buying it or because it was in fashion magazines, and sort of turned the conservation piece upside down, and actually create a product that looked better work partner did something for you, or your You know, your your feeling of self then I could could potentially get more people to adopt and use the product and then become activists you know for the planet and for the mission because you know I realized that there were already so many reusable bottles on the planet you mentioned the Mowgli bottle which is a great product right ubiquitous and I went to school in Boulder and everybody was you know walking around carrying one of those the carabiner to your backpack, but then you pull out and you you know, I was I was living in New York City for a while and you see fashionable people pulling out you know, a single use plastic bottle out of their their fancy handbag or briefcase or you know, backpack and so I thought if there's a way for me to turn this upside down and make a product that's beautiful and by the way, works better than anything else with you know, insulating properties, keeps it hot and cold, whatever, by the way more people will adopt it and happenstance do better for the planet. So I think that was sort of the insight that I thought would sort of lead to more adoption and then more impact overall. Marc Gutman 10:04 I just got caught up. I think I've been pronouncing Nat going wrong, apparently the whole time the whole life. So that's a good, that's a good lesson right there. I like that. Thank you for graciously informing me without correcting me on my own show. But I'll admit that I was. I'm being corrected here. I like that. And so what I really heard in that was that you were looking around and you just felt underrepresented. You didn't feel like there was anything like you out there, addressing this need that I get that right. Sarah Kauss 10:34 That's right. I think I was under estimating the size of the market when I started swell, but I really created a product for myself, assuming that if there was a spot in the market that would that could fulfill the need that I had for a product. There were many other people like me, or you know, a pivot to the right or left of me, but I don't think I was really thinking, you know, how hard Just the ocean when you stand and look at it from the shore, you know, I don't think I realized when I was starting the company how big of a mission and a vision we we couldn't should have. I was really just starting small thinking, why don't I see if I can make something for myself and market to people like me? Marc Gutman 11:16 Yeah. And I think like, I don't know about you. But you know, I think if I think of those big things upfront, I might not even do them. You know, it might be so big. That it's overwhelming. Yeah, Sarah Kauss 11:26 it's overwhelming and then you don't get started. Exactly. Marc Gutman 11:29 So it sounds like that you have led a life of activism of environmentalism. Were you always this way? I mean, was eight year old Sarah, you know, growing up in Florida, were you were you an environmentalist at a young age? Sarah Kauss 11:44 You know, I was I was, you know, what my parents raised me in such a way that, you know, I was I was a girl scout and you take the oath of, you know, making the world a better place wherever you go. And, you know, when we would take a boat ride, we would, you know, pick up plastic, you know, From the ocean that we would see bobbing along or, you know, we would go for a walk at the beach and instead of picking up shells, we would, you know, pick up things. You know, we were the first people to recycle on our block before they had curbside pickup. And, you know, one of my girl scout projects was making our local camp more accessible to two handicap girls. So they also could be experienced, you know, the outdoors. So, you know, I really thank my parents for sort of instilling in me at a very young age, you know, just sort of the community spirit and you know, how to how to view the world. I grew up in a small town, so there, there weren't a heck of a lot of you know, distractions anyway. So you know, going for a hike or going for a walk seemed like the biggest adventure you could be having, but I felt my parents really took the time to use that backdrop of our town or our experience to really teach my brother and myself a lot of lessons along the way. So I'm pretty fortunate in that aspect. And we're the Marc Gutman 12:59 entrepreneur. I mean, I love that story about your dad that paperweight like that's just like, you know, yeah, I don't have paperweight for my dad, by the way, like, I wish I did like, not not that story. Love you, dad. But But I mean, I mean, that seems like a great teaching lesson, a very strong presence in your life. Was it was your father or your mother entrepreneurial? I mean, were there they role models for you? Sarah Kauss 13:23 Yes. So my parents actually were both entrepreneurs growing up so my mom had her own business and it was an ice cream store. And not only did she you know, own and manage and run the ice cream store, but she drove the ice cream truck and, you know, for Easter, she would actually dress up late as the Easter Bunny and bring you a bunny cake to make sure that you know, she had all of our sales numbers, you know, for that month. She used to joke around that she thought she'd be she'd be buried with rocky road on her arms from making cakes. And then my dad was an entrepreneur as well super hard worker and, and owned and managed a carwash Gas Station sort of a mini Plaza and in Florida for for nearly 40 years I just recently sold it so my parents were both small business owners and and really instilled in myself you know growing up just sort of the spirit of you know, hard work and can do ism, you know, and you know, being around them both was was definitely part of you know, who I was when I grew up and you know, became a business woman. Marc Gutman 14:27 Yeah. And I have to imagine that having both those strong role models in your life that the idea of owning your own business at least you know, was planted as a seed all throughout your, your early and formative years. Did you try going into a normal career as they would say, or were you right from the get go you focused when you went to CU Boulder? Were you like, I'm going to be an entrepreneur? Sarah Kauss 14:51 Well, I always thought I would be an entrepreneur, entrepreneur, but i don't know that i i don't know that i had the idea or I don't know that I necessarily had the competence. You know, I love With these stories of these, these young people that you know, their first job, you know, either they drop out of school or their first job out of school is starting a business. I don't think that I was I was ready for that straight out of school. So I took a real job, I took a day job, I took a bit of a windy path to, to starting swell, but you know, my, my first, you know, job or career out of Boulder was, I became a CPA and I worked at Ernst and Young and I did audit and I did tax and I learned a lot that people were nice, but it was terrible. It was just an absolutely, it wasn't where I was meant to be. It wasn't creative. And, you know, there wasn't, you know, what I what I'm doing today, but when I really look back on it, it was absolutely essential for me to have an understanding of accounting and finance, you know, know my way around the numbers, really understanding so many different industries like my clients were everything from media, financial services, consumer products, your hospitals. Something like manufacturing, so I got to get in and out of a lot of businesses, you know, in my early 20s you know, instead of just sort of taking a typical day job and getting to see one industry, I got to see all kinds of things is as much as you know, becoming an accountant wasn't really fitting for myself. And, you know, my, my overall skill set of, you know, what I wanted to do with my career. Marc Gutman 16:23 Yeah, and I love you know, a bit of your path and we can talk about this but you know, you grew up in Florida, you you decide to go see some of the world and you you know, even if you lived anywhere in between there, but you go to Boulder to university, you go to Ernst and Young, and it says here that, you know, you've you've lived in, you know, Denver and Los Angeles, and then you take that that work experience and you decide to go to Harvard and to go get your MBA and again at this point, are you like, I'm going to start a business or is it more like hey, I just know I want to be in business and to further my career. I need to you know, go get my MBA. Sarah Kauss 16:59 You know, when I was working at at our sweet young at Ely, which has been renamed in Los Angeles, before I went to business school, most of my clients were entrepreneurs. And so you know, I would do the hard work and get their financial packages together and bring them their audit work. And then I would sit down and say to them, like, how did you get to where you are, you know, what's your background? How can I become you instead of, you know, basically doing your accounting? And one of the common themes that they seem to have was, you know, a business background and further business education. And so, as much as I didn't know how to just sort of one day wake up and become, you know, a great business person, I thought, two years of Business School, which certainly allow me to be exposed to, to more people to more ideas, and give me the gift of time to really try to think about, you know, myself and my skill set and also the world and in what I might contribute and what type of a company I might start. So, really, Business School is more of a filibuster to try to figure it out. Kind of a place to hang out for a few years to try to find that aha moment that that, you know, launched my career. You know, unfortunately, when I was in business school, you know, the economy had a bit of a downturn, September 11 happened when I was there, there weren't a lot of jobs. It was a bit of a scary time to graduate with a lot of debts. And so I wound up sort of just taking a job after school for a few years until I could, you know, come up with some idea, you know, to start swell. Marc Gutman 18:29 What was that job? Sarah Kauss 18:30 Oh, gosh, I first were a year worked for the school. I work for Harvard for a year, they had a bit of a, a wonderful program for wayward souls that couldn't find a job. So I stayed at the school for a year. And I actually worked for the now Dean in the Leadership Initiative, sort of reading and writing leadership paces and doing some like internal consulting for the school and then from there, I wound up getting into commercial real estate development of all things and I work for a publicly traded REIT that builds science buildings and laboratories. And I stuck there for about five or six years, doing these large public private partnerships between sort of cities and, and hospitals and pharmaceutical companies. It was very entrepreneurial in that every project had its own stakeholders, its own, you know, p&l, its own set of employees or consultants. So even though the underlying theme was, you know, real estate or, you know, science building, the neat thing was my company had a fair amount of confidence in me and sort of let me go, sort of one run some projects on my own in a very entrepreneurial way, which I think finally gave me that dose of confidence and that little bit of a kick in the pants that that you know, I probably had probably had what I needed to go start my company Finally, I didn't need to keep taking jobs, you know, for promotion, working for others. Marc Gutman 19:53 Yeah, not so cool. And I think you know, I meet a lot of entrepreneurs and mentor entrepreneurs myself, and you know, I think there is this misconception You have to do it right out of school or go to an entrepreneur, ship track at university and then get right into it. And I think that there's something really powerful about your story in your experience of going out and forming your own worldview and kind of figuring out what it is you care about and learning all these different skills and you know, on somebody else's dime while you're making a salary also with someone else's momentum, because as you know, as an entrepreneur, it's like really hard to get momentum. And so, I mean, I think that there's something just really really powerful in that and a lesson to be learned for listeners and that you know, you don't have to you know, start some fabled business the second you get out of school or the second you even decide you have an idea. You know, there are different ways of getting there. Sarah Kauss 20:47 That's great advice. I oftentimes give other entrepreneurs that same advice as well. And I would say add to that is just be patient with yourself because I you know, I was not very patient with myself when I was so frustrated when I wasn't coming with the idea of I was, you know, but I think that, you know, when you try to force it, sometimes it just doesn't come. But you know, I also like to say, you know, just, as you mentioned, learn on someone else's dime, but but also, just in any, any situation you're in, there's something to be learned. I mean, there's some if it's either from a functional perspective or leadership perspective, even if you're in a position that there isn't good leadership or either isn't good, you know, even if it's a bad experience, there's something so positive that you can learn when you start your own venture, you're just going to do it completely differently. Right. So I think that's great advice. Marc Gutman 21:32 Yeah. And so you're you're getting experience you're working in some cool businesses. Where did the idea first well first come about? Sarah Kauss 21:40 It was that little literal, you know, aha moment on a mountainside. So I was working pretty much non stop when a by character flaws is you know, when I put my mind to something I, I can't I can't do it in moderation. And so even though I was working for someone else's business, I was working all the time, and my My my mom said listen I'm having a mini intervention I'm taking you away for a vacation weekend a three day weekend and we're going to go hiking and we're going to have spa day and you know we're just going to kind of get out in the world and talk and literally hiking with my mom on a hot day in Arizona. And I took a sip of water out of a stainless steel single walls kind of a cheap bottle that they gave us there at the at the hotel. And it just came to me I literally had to get out of my day to day life and and be on the side of a mountain and drink warm water and I thought all of the things I'm passionate about right now are the from the environment to you know women movement empowerment and you know, thinking about you know, access to clean water and you know, sustainability and you know and fashion and all that was just literally just popped into my head I thought what if I created a better water bottle, and then from that moment on, you know, for the last 10 years as well Bolton turn 10 that summer I that's the that's the sole mission and focus I've had in my life. Marc Gutman 23:05 And it's interesting to think about and if you could take us back and think about what was the environment in terms of water bottles like back then like What did it look like because now like there's probably no better time to be a water bottle consumer you know? There's so many choices like you can get a fashionable swell water bottle now but you couldn't then what like what did that what did the market look like when you're when you started doing your research? Sarah Kauss 23:30 So there were a lot of bottles on the market, great, great companies that made you know, fine products, but it was more of a camping accessory. When you think about what the bottles look like or where you would purchase them or how they were designed. The products on the market were more functional, they were more you're going to the gym and this is your bottle with a sports top you are going camping overnight and here's your you know your bottle with a carabiner that you wasn't necessarily a product that would be sold in a fashion store or you would buy to express your personality. It was more of just sort of a widget that that solved a need. And so, you know, as I, as I mentioned previously, like I was really thinking about creating a new product, but really creating a new category for that product and not even bother with the current competition, because I wasn't looking to compete. I was looking to actually create something entirely new and change customers, actual experience and behaviors by creating something that looked differently and work differently. So no, I wrote a two page, you know, embarrassing business plan. But I basically said, you know, we're going to be the partner of fashion week we're going to be the partner of the TED conference. We are going to be sold in Bloomingdale's and, and Saks Fifth Avenue, and we're going to be this coveted it thing. And that wasn't that wasn't the current market for any of the water bottles. They were just, you know, carry Water for your hike in the mountains. And what was Marc Gutman 25:03 your relationship with fashion at that time? I mean, you've mentioned that a bunch that seems to be a pivotal component of the perspective of swell like what what was your relationship to fashion Sarah Kauss 25:13 you know, I like to think I'm a fashionable person but I'm really not I'm really not I'm generally wearing a dress and pearls and I'm pretty conservative I'm but I love to follow fashion and, and I really thought that the way that I could launch a product without a consumer products background and without a marketing background, and quite honestly, without any budget, was to hook a product into the fashion cycle or the sight guys of people's wants and needs. And so I thought, you know, try to get earned media to try to get you know, women's fashion magazines or partners, you know, with with fashionable, you know, people and brands that that would be a way to hook my product into kind of a bigger stream that would allow it to sort of click Catch on instead of just making something putting on the shelf and then trying to market it. So when I say fashion, what I'm really trying to express is, is sort of, like how did I sort of hitch myself to something that was was bigger than my product? And how did I kind of take something and put it into sort of a different stream? So people would think about it differently. Marc Gutman 26:23 Wow. Yeah. And that like strategy that that approach is just this like really beautiful combination of the magical and the logical, you know, you really thought it through you know, the magical being your product and the hangman to create a category but the logical like how you're going to go out and distribute it really interesting and really intentional, which, which I just don't hear a lot from either first time entrepreneurs or, you know, bootstrapped startups like yourself, Sarah Kauss 26:48 but I think part of it just came with age and experience. And so I didn't start swell until, you know, in my role I was in my early 30s. And so I think it just took me Being a consumer for a long time and being really observant of other companies and other brands and just you know, being a student of the world I think that's, you know, as much as I was frustrated that I didn't come up with the idea, you know, decades ago and you know, I'm not long retired and still working really hard. I don't know that we would have been so successful if I if I didn't have some, you know, you know, twists and turns in my career and some, you know, some gray hairs when I started the company. Marc Gutman 27:33 This episode brought to you by wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory Helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. So you had this great idea. You wrote a two-page business plan, which is very impressive. And, you know, you had this theory and that you were gonna hook up with, you know, Fashion Week and other you know, use that as a way to pull you through. Is that the way it works? Like how did you actually start so you have this idea like, how'd you get you know, start how'd you get your first bottle Sarah Kauss 29:00 It was messy, you know, it was it was things did not just jump off the page and into the stores, you know, it was trying to talk to people in my network, you know, trying to figure out, you know, how do you make a website? How do you come up with a brand name? How do you make a product? How do you find a factory? So there were there were a lot of sort of twists and turns. I think the one thing that I did though, was just take a lot of people out for lunch, a lot of people out for coffee, you know, try to just explain the best I could, you know, what I was trying to do and just ask for help for the things that I didn't know. And you know, of course now, I understand how to make and launch a product but there are a lot of a lot of things that took 10 times longer in those early days because it was also new to me Marc Gutman 29:48 was the like, was the design of the bottle was that that we see today the classic swell bottle was that in your mind when you envision it in Arizona, or how did that come about? Sarah Kauss 29:58 You know that actually came about is that I wanted to make something really old fashioned. I wanted something that didn't have any bells and whistles, I wanted it to be sort of, you know, not just for that fashion girl, but I wanted it to be for everyone. And so you know, one of the things that I kept coming back to for a very short period in my life growing up, we actually had milkman delivery, and didn't work out it was a startup, but my parents wanted to support another small business in our town. And, you know, for a period of time in my life, we actually had someone that came in, you know, delivered, you know, milk and cheese into a cooler on on our front porch. But when the company went out of business, they just left us with those milk bottles. And so one of the things that I thought about was like, how do you create something as iconic as the original, you know, milkman, but how do you do it in a way that's like a very beautifully designed product that would be, you know, fitting to sit on the shelves, you know, at the MoMA store where we're sold in New York. And so I worked with them with a freelancer and a design team in New York to really take idea and put it on paper and then from paper to, you know, to CAD to, you know, 3d prints and then to a product. But there was a lot of pantomiming along the way, like, could it be taller? Could it be shorter? You know, do I have a friend that has a baby that could try to put it in their stroller to make sure it fits? Do I have them? Do I have a friend that has, you know, a different type of car that we could try it out in so that we there wasn't a lot of like real, you know, in home consumer user testing and things like that, you know, in those or early days and things that we do now. But it was more just sort of kind of using my gut of what I thought the product should look like. Marc Gutman 31:36 Do you remember the very first prototype you ever received? I mean, it didn't look like the bottle that looks now or was it a heartbreaking story? Sarah Kauss 31:45 Well, it was. It was a heartbreaking story. It was it was pretty bad. But I still remember it coming and I asked friends to be around me when I opened it and we all kind of looked at it and no one wanted to say that my baby was ugly, but we all kind of Looks at each other like, Oh, no. It wasn't perfect in the beginning. I'll tell you that. Marc Gutman 32:07 Yeah, and what it How were you as an early leader were you like, like, I know me like I, if I if I opened up that bottle and it was just misshapen or just wasn't living up, I would be crushed, you know, and probably take me days to rebound and and some people are obviously much more resilient. I we were you like thinking of quitting? Were you just the type of person that was like, Hey, I can make this better? Like, how did you react to that? Sarah Kauss 32:31 You know, I would say, Oh, I mean, there were certainly moments in the early days where it's like, well, maybe this isn't working out and I used to go do something else. And then you know, I'd go for a walk or call a friend and calm down about it and then say, No, no, actually, I think that there's a way around this. I think that you know, let's just give it one more. One more try. And could we just do this? And so I think it was a little bit of both. Like there was certainly some discouraging moments and thinking gosh, how am i did i think i could do this? And then really thinking it through thinking Ah, maybe maybe that was an knucklehead thing to do, but if I just tried it, you know, one more time, maybe it'll work out better. Marc Gutman 33:04 I mean, did anybody ever tell you hey Sarah, this this probably isn't gonna work out anyone that you respected and oh, yeah, really made you like double Sarah Kauss 33:12 double think? Yeah, I mean friends family members, I hired an accountant, which is funny that I hired an accountant to come and like set up my QuickBooks file, which was like the backbone of my whole system, you know, for the first number of years and really nice guy and he came over to my apartment was awesome my office at the time and sat down and he's like, okay, bring me all the bank statements, and I'll set up the file and get you started. And he goes, No, I told you all the bank statements and I said, No, this this is all the statements and he just looked at me and he's like, how much is the rent of this apartment because you actually have less money in the bank, then then you have to pay rent on the space that we're sitting right now. And of course, I showed them underneath the table. I had all this inventory that was sort of underneath the kitchen table, and I thought, well, that's fine. I've already pre purchased all the inventory. For the next six months, I just have to be motivated to get out and sell it. And he's he just looked at me and he's like, but you could get a real job like you don't have to pay doing this. You know, and we still laugh about that moment. But yeah, I mean, it literally was like, you know, they're not really any decimal points behind the balance of that first file we set up but you know, it worked out and I think I almost needed that fire in my belly to get out and you know, sell sell sell in those early days. But you know, I had all kinds of people thought this was a real crazy idea. Marc Gutman 34:32 So what did that like early sales activity look like? Because I'm guessing if I've got my timing right, you probably just didn't go to Facebook and start putting up ads and sit back and watch all the traffic coming in. I mean, were you going door to door and were you just, you know, pounding the pavement so to speak. Sarah Kauss 34:48 I was Yeah, I was going door to door, walking into stores asking to talk to the buyer. introducing myself. I made a little folder with a little press kit and wrote the copy and paste The pictures and dropped it off. I wrote postcards, old fashioned postcards and put them in the mountains. And I'm Sarah, I'm going to be coming to your store on Tuesday afternoon, keep an eye out for me. Just Just try to have a human connection. You know, in some cases, people will be very skeptical of the price point. I said, Well, why don't I just leave them here on the shelf. And if they don't sell, I'll come pick them up next Tuesday. And when I pop in the next Tuesday said, actually, you know, we sold half of them you dropped off, maybe we'll put it in order. So it was great. I mean, I I still keep in touch today with you know, some of those very first stores that that took us in, and I'm still so appreciative of the fact they gave me a chance. And they taught me a lot. You know, I asked them like, you know, how do you find all these products, all the entrepreneurs couldn't walk in the door themselves and they said, Oh, we go to trade shows or we have sales reps or you know, so I be just being on the front lines of my own business really allowed me to kind of see what I needed to do to grow and scale. So even though It was not very sexy. And with a lot of hard work it kind of it. It gave me a great education. Marc Gutman 36:06 And what about those stores that said, No, what was that, like? Sarah Kauss 36:09 Oh, so frustrating, so frustrating. And what was so frustrating is sometimes stores would say no forever. And then they would call me out of the blue and say, Oh, I was just reading a magazine, I discovered your product. And I'd like to sell it now. And I'm thinking, you discover the product because you have five samples sitting in your back room because I've been trying to get in there. But everybody wanted to kind of, you know, be part of our success, you know, as we were starting to take off so I just let people say, oh, okay, thank you for discovering us. But you know, in some cases, you know, those noes were really just a fun challenge for me like like Bloomingdale's. Bloomingdale said no for two years and they said we don't carry water bottles, and I kept saying, but we are not a water bottle. We are a hydration fashion accessory. And we belong on yourself, shelves, just as much as you know, a scarf, a handbag, a pair of shoes, because we're Fashion statements and the cool thing about that is when they finally said yes and came around they have been such an incredible partner like we've actually had entire window displays in their 59th Street store in Manhattan on Fifth Avenue. We've had holiday Windows you know they've done custom products with us they'd buy today right like little brown bottle you know like their little brown bag on our bottle. So you know that perseverance we can laugh about it now as much as I'm like, you know come on guys. This was this was really hard for you to see the light you know, they've been they've been a great partner and they're really fun to work with now. Marc Gutman 37:37 Yeah. And how close to the brand we see today was that original brand was it called swell that did you have the website you know, swell calm like that? Did it look and feel very similar to to what it is today? Sarah Kauss 37:53 No. So we just recently launched swell calm, we were swell bottle in the early days, even before That we were even a worse name, which was can't live without it.com. Because I thought that was a great name for a water bottle company. But you know, within the first couple of months we became became swell and bought swell bottle. But the first website was very mission focused, you know, I had, you know, this is a mission driven company and has been from the beginning and I had a bit of a platform where I wanted to tell people about how much plastic was in the ocean. You know, I wanted, I wanted people to understand, you know, the impact you could have about, you know, using a single use bottle, you know, I basically had statistics on there, like, you know, by 2021, it's expected that 583 billion single use drinking plastic bottles will be sold and less than two thirds of those would be recycled. You know, I had stats about the water crisis, and you know, people that don't have access to clean water and the fact that we partner with you know, UNICEF to bring clean drinking water to people in need, and people will come to the website and they would spend about 10 seconds, and then they would feel bad about themselves. And then they would leave the website. And, and I realized that what I needed to do is sort of turn that upside down and leave with product, I had to have beautiful pictures of the product. You know, I had to be a fashion company, you know, when you looked at the imagery, they couldn't be pictures, I took myself, you know, I had to get a photographer to take some pictures. You know, I needed to kind of pump up the copy. And you know, and really have people want to spend time on the site, and I had to have people want to buy the product. And then by the way, they're doing something good for the planet. And it's people because they're doing that. So like if you look in that Wayback Machine, where you can visit websites from a long time ago, like will be a case study of, you know what not to do. But I didn't know any differently. When I was starting. I just thought all of our consumers would be passionate about all the same things that I was. Marc Gutman 39:53 Yeah, that's such an interesting insight into so like, My head's kind of blowing up a little bit because I think, you know, we We, you know, in our company, we work with purpose driven brands, a lot of people have missions, and it's core to what they do. But it's almost in order to achieve your goal and your mission, you can't lead with your mission. And that's a, you know, sometimes it's just too much to take, like you said, it makes people feel bad about themselves, or, hey, like, I want to help out, but I don't want to be all in on this, you know, activism, like I want to do my part type thing. And it's just a really interesting insight hearing you speak and have that realization that sometimes you have to, in order to further your mission, you have to back away from it forward facing a little bit. Sarah Kauss 40:35 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know, one of the things that I'm feeling really positive right now is, we can embrace the sustainability piece a lot more now. I'd like to take a little credit for it. But I think we can be a little bit more forthcoming on sort of those statistics and the impact, then I could be in the beginning not to say that you know, that fashion and design still isn't central to what we do. But because sustainability and in sort of just the mindset around sustainability is taking a center stage, we can start to kind of come back to some of that original messaging, still not as green, but you know, kind of. So I think it's interesting for brands to kind of think about, like, what are those levers and how you turn them up and turn them down? Depending upon you know, what, what society you know, can handle and and, you know, how do you get your mission in people's hands, you know, are you focusing on the product? are you focusing on the story? Marc Gutman 41:32 Yeah, that's, that's, that's so great. And like I said, my head spinning and so thank you for sharing that. Where did the name swell come from? It's such like a beautifully compact, it's like one of those names. It's kind of like a you're like no, like a like, of course, like what a great name but I'm sure I don't know if you felt that like when it was first presented. Like where where did that name come from? Sarah Kauss 41:54 You know, I really wanted something old fashioned and I wanted something that was very positive like something that was happy. be something that makes you feel good. So I work with the design team on building the first website. And they were not asked to come up with a name. I thought I had a great name can't live without it can't live without a calm, I purchased it, you know, you can't live without water, bringing water to people in need, you know, it all made sense. And they asked me, they said, Hey, what are you going to call this company? And I said, well, can't live without it. And they all just cracked up laughing. And they said, Listen, you're not a marketer. Why don't we come up with some names? Why don't we come up with the name exploration and, you know, in addition to helping you build out the website, we'll just name this thing for you because we really want this to be successful? I said, Okay, fine. You know, my ego being a little bit hurt that you know, my name wasn't good enough, then you know, I started running it by friends and they totally agreed that was a terrible idea. So they came out with you know, a handful of names and swell was the first one I was really gravitated to. And unfortunately, the attorney said that we couldn't have it And long story short, a friend of Mind said that he put an apostrophe in the word swell, you know, between the s and the W, it becomes sort of a logo and not a name. And we were able to register it as you know, as a name. So it was a bit of a back and forth between sort of the marketing branding side and the legal side of what you're allowed to do, and to call it but, but what I love about swell as a name is, you know, it's not only old fashioned and positive, but there's so many meetings, you know, there's like, the whole groundswell of support. And you know, the whole the fact that people say, I need to go find my swell, and it actually becomes an object and object of desire. And it just sort of is it's part of the personality of the brand. So I'm glad we stuck to it. I'm glad we were able to make that work, because I think we would be a different company if we were called anything else. Marc Gutman 43:47 Yeah, I love it. And thanks, man, answering the my burning question about the apostrophe and all sorts of like conspiracy theories, but you answered it and it was perfect. Sarah Kauss 43:57 It's hard not to put an apostrophe and everything. We have We launched food containers last year, I called them snack. And you know, we've got a whole bunch of other, you know, new products that are coming out and I keep putting us apostrophes in front of everything now, I think it's part of our magic and my I think my team is kind of looking at me like, Okay, here we go again. So not all of our products have an apostrophe in them, but some of my favorite ones do. Marc Gutman 44:18 Yeah, I love it. It's recognizable. It's become your brand, which is, which is really all you can ask for. Right? Sarah Kauss 44:23 Yeah. Thanks. Marc Gutman 44:25 That's cool. So what does swell look like today? So you started 10 years ago. So when is the anniversary Did you have it already? Or is that coming up? Sarah Kauss 44:34 Well, officially, it's small. We kind of made up when it's going to be but we've kind of passed it but we're doing it in July. So we are having our big 10 year anniversary in July. So coming soon and really just honoring our customers, you know, our customers that have been by our side and have you know joined us on this mission and helped us make such an impact. You know, we've together saved over 4 billion single use plastic bottles. In the last 10 years, and that's a conservative estimate. And we just know that we can do so much more together. So we're just going to take the whole month of July and it's honor our customers and say thank you. Marc Gutman 45:09 Yeah, like how many water bottles have you put out there in the world? Maybe the last we counted with last year, and it was over 20 million. How does that make you feel? Sarah Kauss 45:20 You know, it makes me feel really proud. You know, I think as an entrepreneur, you're always you're always looking at your to do lists, and you're always, you know, thinking that there's so much more you couldn't should be doing. But it makes me incredibly proud. You know, it's, it's hard to not run into my products everywhere, you know, on, you know, Netflix movies and TV shows, and, you know, the the war room for putting SpaceX up. You know, there's one of those smart engineers sitting there as well, like, it's hard not to turn on the TV and zero in and see my product in the background. You know, or, you know, really great people that have supported us and You know, put pictures on Instagram and, you know, it's, it's, it's so cool to just kind of see the way that our product has been embraced by our customers and is really out there and in different lives. So as much as I like to think about, you know, how much more we could and should be doing and, you know, have plans for the future, it just makes me incredibly proud, you know, to think there's so many of these things walking around, and they're such a big part of people's lives. Marc Gutman 46:25 Totally. And so what, you know, you just mentioned it, what does the future look like for swell? Sarah Kauss 46:30 You know, what I'm excited about is that right now, there's such a trend about consumers looking for brands to deliver on a more thoughtful approach to production and commerce. And that, you know, it's it's really thinking about how everyone is connected and how all these small steps can contribute to a bigger impact. And so, you know, what we're finding is that, you know, we've just recently announced that we're a B Corp, and it's a Really good time because we're finding that consumers really want to work with a purpose driven brands, you know, they're willing to try new products from from brands that they know and love, and spend more with those brands, which means that we can actually have a bigger impact on the planet. One of the things I'm super passionate about right now is just working with some of the biggest companies in the world, as they're rethinking their supply chains. Because a lot of these big companies, they've put out these huge, amazing sustainability goals, but they don't necessarily know how to how to meet them or reach them. And we're really the best known reusable container company. And it doesn't matter what type of you know, food, beverage, you know, you might be making, you need to think about what kind of a reusable container will customers use, adopt, covet, you know, clean and reuse. And oftentimes, swell is sort of that first call that these these companies or these sustainability teams have these calls companies are making. So I'm finding sort of a real sense of excitement. Me personally, and you know, even within swell of really thinking beyond the products we make right now. But thinking about how we use partnerships to do even more, all around sort of our mission of, you know, getting single use plastics and just less waste in the world. Marc Gutman 48:24 It's crazy to think I mean, this all goes back to those moments where you were either hiking in Arizona, or you're in Peru and looking at, you know, a bunch of dirty bottles in the water. And you know, and it was just, to me, something that's so powerful is that was just an idea by Sarah that didn't exist. It was this like figment of your imagination. And you've turned it into reality, which is actually making a difference and impacting the world in a way that you dreamed of. So you turned your dream into your story and Clearly the ending is not written yet. It's still evolving. But that when you look back that has to make you feel pretty good. Sarah Kauss 49:08 Yeah, it's me when you put it that way, it's it is pretty crazy, but it does, it does make me pretty, pretty proud. It makes me feel pretty good. You know, I think it just shows I mean, you just have to you have to start somewhere, you know, all these, all these little steps have, you know, the opportunity of growing if you just sort of put your, your mind to it, you know, a lot of you know, hard work and tears over over the years, right. But you know, all these little steps, you know, kind of grow with, you know, support, you know, support from customers, collaborations people with a shared vision. It's, it's pretty amazing what can happen if you put your mind to it? Marc Gutman 49:42 Absolutely. So when you're holding a swell bottle today, and you're looking at it, like what's special about it? Why is that important to you? Sarah Kauss 49:52 Yep. So what's special when I see as well as I know how much love and care went into this? Well, so I'm sitting I'm sitting here with one of our travelers right now which is sort of a wide mouth swell. It's great for for coffee or smoothie I have ice cubes in it but I'm sitting with a design that it's called Oasis officially but internally we joke around and call it the sound of music bottle because there's these beautiful mountains and clouds and you know even though I'll be indoors, most of today on calls, I feel like I'm in a beautiful mountain mountain scape when I'm sitting here with this bottle and I see it and I know the meanings and the conversations and the photography and the assets and the coffee and you know, the 10,000 steps that went into making this product. I know and I appreciate I know our customers don't always sort of see see that level of you know, of love and magic with each one. But you know, when I'm when I'm using our product for me, it's like each one of them is like one of my favorite children. You know, I have a hard time not getting excited when I wake up in the morning and they're still From the night before, and I think, gosh, if I didn't know this company, I'd want to write to them because it really works. You know, so it's, I still get really excited about, you know about our company and our products, you know, even even this many, you know, years and this many products in. Marc Gutman 51:15 Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that. If you could see me right now I have a big grin ear to ear. I just loved hearing that I could really feel it. So it wasn't just that it wasn't just your words, but yeah, but I could feel it. So thank you. So Sara, as we come to a close here and thank you very much for for sharing your story. If the 20 year old you that that young woman probably at CU Boulder ran into you today. What do you think she'd say? Sarah Kauss 51:40 You know, I think she'd be proud. I think she would probably tell me that, you know, go to the gym. Try to take myself a little bit less seriously. Try to have a little bit more fun. But I think 20 year old Sarah would be proud that she finally figured it out. You know, you know, I think if I could go and tell her something, I would say kind of Give yourself some time. Be gentle with yourself. You're going to get there, you'll figure it out. You know, there's probably going to be some dead ends along the way, but it'll all be fine. But yeah, I think I think 20 year old Sarah would would be pretty, pretty glad it all worked out. Marc Gutman 52:19 And that is Sarah Kauss from swell bottle. What would you do? If you could not fail? Would you take on one of the world's biggest challenges like single use plastics? Sarah story is a great example of what a single person can do when they put their mind to a big, audacious goal. Will it be easy? No. Will the path be linear? Most likely not. Where the reward is worth the struggle. Most definitely. If you haven't seen swell bottles, you can check them out@swell.com that's swell.com. Thank you again to Sarah in the Team at swell keeps saving the world one bottle at a time. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS, so you'll never miss an episode. I like big backstories stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 034: Steve "Stix" Nilsen | Liquid Death | I Do Cool Sh*t, With Cool People

Joining us today is Steve “Stix” Nilsen, the vice president of lifestyle marketing at Liquid Death Mountain Water. He has some bold strategies that have proven effects on branding, brand loyalty, marketing, and generating profits for Fortune 500 companies. When asked how he does it, he said “I do cool shit, with cool people, that makes people buy things.” You won’t want to miss this fun and lively interview with a down to Earth guy that has some serious moxie!

What we’re talking about

• Epiphany on a Beach
• Tenacity and Forging His Own Path
• Trying New Things, But Knowing Your Boundaries

 Epiphany on a Beach

Steve grew up just outside Minneapolis, MN, but visited family in Hawaii over the summers. It was his summer fun that sparked his love for surfing. Even though he went to a private prep school and played traditional sports, he was also passionate about skateboarding and music. It was his love of discovering who he was that led him to try jobs in many different industries, from being a golf cart boy to construction to working in a bank. All the way to working for Northwest Airlines to indulge his love of travel! It was during one of his adventurous trips around the world, Stix had an epiphany. He was sitting on Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia when he had a revelation. His career needed to be in action sports!

Tenacity and Forging His Own Path 

To obtain a career in action sports, Stix went about it his own way, by grabbing every action sports magazine and studying the brands he liked the most. He cold called companies. He took their existing ads, and redid their marketing with his own comic flair. Sending them back to the companies for review. His boldest move and big break came when he talked to the director of marketing at Airwalk. Her home had just burned to the ground and she had to be on a plane to Europe a few hours later. She was too busy to take his call, so he mailed a smoke detector to her home! It worked and he was hired.

Trying New Things, But Knowing Your Boundaries

Steve had worked hard to get his foot in the door, and he started working in merchandising. It was when he realized that they were doing it all wrong, and his advice fell on deaf ears, that he decided to learn everything up and down the ladder so he could make the decisions to best position the product.  Will you take your passion and make a career out of it?

LINKS MENTIONED

Steve Nilsen’s LinkedIn Stix’s Instagram Liquid Death Instagram Liquid Death Website

SPONSOR

Wildstory

TIMESTAMPS

• 13:00 - 13:39 (39 sec MG) There really is this awesome idea that...be the person that you wanted to be. 100%
• 15:05 - 15:18 (13 sec SN) Let’s not paint this picture that I’m...they all wore the same outfits. Costumes as I like to say.
• 27:40 - 27:58 (18 sec MG) Brands don’t really own the brands...everyone is having their own conversations. 
• 28:21 - 28:43 (22 sec) How did you start the process of...this is pre-internet.
• 52:58 - 53:22 (24 sec SN) When the light bulb went off...that is brand equity.
• 57:58 - 58:20 (22 sec SN) That’s pretty tell tale when you have...you’re gonna be the first guy who’s gonna hit me up for swag.

QUOTES

1. I believe travel is so important for the growth of kids, if you can possibly do it, to see other cultures. See other things. It helps you figure out who you are. - SN
2. To exist as a brand, you can’t just go off your bros. You’ve got to bring in people that know what they’re doing. - SN
3. You don’t just do “enough”. Don’t check boxes. - SN
4. I’m a great believer in luck. I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. - Unknown
5. We’re not a product. We’re a brand. - SN

Podcast Transcript

Steve "Stix" Nilsen 0:02 All I remember is that they were they moved from Carlsbad, California to Pennsylvania. And I was just barraging her with letters and left and I call call cold call. And then I picked up the phone one day. And I said, hey, it's Steve Nilsen. Oh, it's cute kid. Because again, because Listen, kid, I don't have time to talk to you. My house just burned down. I gotta leave for Europe. And I was like, Alright, I gotta go. So I mailed her a smoke detector in the mail. And she called me like laughing. But two weeks, three weeks later says, Oh my god, you have balls kicked. Yeah, she flew me out and fast forward, I end up getting the job. Marc Gutman 0:41 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory, how a kid from Minnesota infatuated with skating and music was able to combine those two loves, and build a marketing career in the action sports industry with some of the world's biggest brands. Hey, now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce this show. I today's episode we're talking to Steve Nielsen. Man, that sounds weird because I know Steve as Styx STI x, and I'm not going to ruin the story of how he got that nickname for you. It's coming up early in the episode and he'll tell you all about it himself. Styx has built a career in the action sports Industry helping to build brands and marketing companies like air walk Red Bull paps. Yep, the Blue Ribbon beer. And now he is helping to build the brand of liquid death, which sounds like some weird cannabis brand, or a punk rock band. But it's canned water. Stix is one of those people who knows everyone and everyone knows him. He's a savvy marketer. And he found a way to marry the things he loved skate culture, in music, with marketing. stix. His story is one of vision, persistence and principles. Listen to the discipline he displays when talking about branding. He's always looking at the long game versus the quick game for the business. I could listen to stix of stories for hours and I loved his honest take on branding and what it takes to build a brand and this is his story. Alright, I am here with Steve Nilson of liquid death. And Steve, I think this might be the last time I call you Steve, because everybody calls you stix. How did you get that nickname? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 3:12 No, I honestly I was given it was 1998 around there. At the time I was building snowboard boots for airwatch and I was over in Asia and long story short is you know, when you're over there in these factories is roasting right and I would wear shorts to the factories because obviously it's super hot in Thailand or Taiwan or or Shanghai, China. And when I wear boots, you know if you guys have skinny legs, it looks like Jiminy Cricket with the boots on and one day my boss at the time who's still very close with me got super irritated about something he was not really me personally but what was going on in production. And we all got really loud. How do you balance them sticks because he's he's from frickin Boston. So stix stuck like that and coworkers are laughing by time I got like some in states camp so he felt that way to SPX and Stop, but it literally is because I've seen the lights. That's not very, you know, glamorous story. But literally, I did look like Jiminy Cricket. I just came across some photos I dug up the other day and I'm wearing snowboard boots and 100 degree factory. So Marc Gutman 4:14 well thanks for that context. Now we're gonna know why we're referring to stix going forward. And stix. You probably have the coolest bio of anyone that has ever been on the show so far. And I'm going to read it because it's very, very short and to the point, I do cool shit with cool people that makes people buy things. What's that mean? Yeah, what's that mean to you? Like how'd you how'd you come to that bio? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 4:40 You know, I think it's because I, you could cut and paste your resume or you could do liquid gas. I'm sorry. resume or you could go to LinkedIn rather, and just cut and paste things and there's not a whole lot of soul to that, I don't think and if you really want me to dumb it down, that's the best way because I'm always run, moving her miles now. And they always say there's quote unquote elevator speech. That was the best way to explain it to you, as he was about to drop it into skate park. If someone asked me what I did, that's what I'm telling you. I mean, it's quick to the point and then maybe pique their curiosity like it is you and it's really just, I'd like to think that my career like, I've had so much fun. And I think that I did all my life, I can look at it that way. I just, I'm not going to do something. If I'm not reading, my heart's not into it. Let's just put it that way. And so you sniff out in your life, brands, people situations, you want to be a part of and make it so you know, and that's really, again, it's probably being a little cryptic, but I hope that answers your question. Marc Gutman 5:36 Yeah, it's a great, it's a great, it's a great answer, stix. And you know, one thing that I know about you and you've touched on it, you dropped a bunch of clues right there talking about dropping into the skate park doing cool things, the cool brands, you know, why don't you tell me a little bit about what your young stix was like? I mean, where did you grow up? What were your interests? And how did that set the foundation for where you are today? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 5:58 Make a very long story short I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Specifically, it's called the Dinah, Minnesota, which we are known as cake eaters. It's a hockey reference to long strip, anyone can look it up enough cake eaters if you can Google it. Anyway, I have relatives in Hawaii, and I became absolutely infatuated with surf skate culture. I just thought it was the coolest cook back then. There was no packs on. There's no zoomies. There was no, you couldn't find the really cool clothes. Except if you go to the skate shops or shopper. Well, we obviously have a lot of that in Minnesota. So when I visited my relatives, I come back with Quicksilver and the different surf brands, billabong, Town and Country. And people are like, where'd you get the word you get the clothes? Where'd you get that? And it's it had made to mainland United States. Yeah, to me, I guess on the coast, but not on Minnesota. And I fast forward. You know, I really got into skateboarding. And snowboarding hadn't existed yet. And I love that but we could only do it a certain amount of time during the year and that wasn't particularly good. But I got Have some kids from this called Southwest High School, which kind of borders along with the suburb that I grew up in. And they were like the kids, I was just, I was fascinated with the fact that they were so into punk rock that they're the ones to tell me about First Avenue and Seventh Street entry, which is anyone has anyone played those venues as a kid like we're talking to a black flag, Jeff a circle jerks, like all these bands, you could go see him for like five bucks because they'd have a matinee show in the morning or midday and then they'd have the Id show at night they call them or whatever. 21 Plus, and that was really what I did. It's funny because I played traditional sports the whole time. But I just was something about that the music, the way people dress, all that really, like captivated me at a young age. And I think it has to do with the fact which is why I believe travel is so important for like the growth of kids if you possibly can do it, to see other cultures see other things. It helps you figure out who you are and for me by me going to experience what it was like in Honolulu and in Maui, and seeing these guys these cool you know, Massimo was actually a surfer and originally people don't know that. That brand And things like that I was just infatuated with it. So that so hope that kind of gives you a little snapshot that I kind of did both. It's like I played the traditional sports, but I love the punk rock skate side. It just was such a curiosity, but I just love how passionate people were. And you could kind of express yourself, you could just be you didn't have to follow on and I went to private school. So everyone kind of the same costume and not that we had to wear uniforms. But I was fascinated that, again, the music, the the activities of skateboarding, and then eventually snowboarding. It allowed you to be you like whatever that meant, and no one's gonna judge you in those circles. Yeah, it's Marc Gutman 8:38 so interesting. I mean, you and I have a very similar background in that, you know, I grew up in Midwest as well. I was super fascinated with skateboard culture. So much so that I used to just look at Thrasher magazine and dream about that lifestyle until the second I could go to California. I did move to Venice Beach and quickly realized that it wasn't quite like it wasn't the magazine at that time. But But like, you know, Really can relate to that. And so what was like, I mean, what was just so special for you and the one thing that was a little different was like, you know, I always thought like, some of the music that like all the skaters were listening to and I can thrash and all that was a little like, a little hard for me. You know, I was more of like a Detroit Detroit Rock City like heavy, you know, metal hairband, kind of kid, you know, what was it about that? That combination of skate and in music that really spoke to you and you talked a little bit it allowed you to, to self expression to like, why was that important? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 9:31 I think it is because I went to, you know, a very well renowned private school in Minneapolis. But the cool thing with this school, I will say from freshman year on in high school, they really had them really that the kids they're really like music, and I'm not saying about playing on a saxophone or a quarter or even though they were known for the choir. But you got to remember I grew up in the thick of the replacements, Cusco do early soul asylum and people would go to the shows and I would have a senior driving freshman to go see the violent felons, let's say. And I just started going to any show I could get my hands on, like you get a ride to but here the school I went to would be a preppy I guess is the term you'd use. But it was fun because we didn't have like any high school you're gonna have the guys little known fact, one of the founders of ice magazine was a year older than me. And we used to see each other punk shows all the time, you know? Think suroosh Alvi. And he's still there. And we would see each other all the time it was funny because then I yes, did I have clothes I guess you can probably but then I would maybe do a twist on it and go buy a pair of camel pants at the army surplus store. And then my mom would would hand them in or make them a little narrower. You don't need to be so baggy, and just like a fun little twist on stuff but we have very little to choose from back then. Not in a destitute way but in a way that we're pretty much had a few department stores to choose from. So the fact you could go do that so like I had a friend of my late friend morning almost. I bring him up because my one of my closest friends died in 911 100 fourth for the South Tower. He's actually the first person on the victims list. If you look at His last name is Ahmed. And he's one of my son's is named after him. But he was funny with Mr. Like, preppy guy, but be the first guy that one might make his own t shirt or want to go to a punk show. And then he wouldn't alter what he could still wear like, it was like a damn shirt to a punk show because he just no one really messed with the meter. It's kind of bigger guy, but he and I are totally online on music. You know, we'd love everything from the cure to again, replacements to Cusco do and then digging really really deep. Like I said the gfa is the world which word for it and we're even pit pihl public engineer limited, which is an offshoot, obviously the Sex Pistols, but we used to take a bus to downtown Minneapolis, the six plus and we would go to northern lights which was the record store and dig through crates for vinyl. And then there was this was owned by this Asian couple called sons su ns and they're the ones who have all the concert tees and you go on their wall and you look at these five screens printed in black, but you couldn't any of the bands you couldn't see you ever see like the Smiths I go into the Smith's work by seeing a T shirt. I bought the T shirt I have no idea meat is murder. What the Smith It was different. You walk down the street, you were like, what is meat is murder. You know, that's the name of the album. But that was kind of how it happened in Minneapolis. Fortunately again, though, it considered a cold destitute place. Otherwise, it had a really good art scene. My mother works for me, Apple sister of arts for decades, you know, had a really really good thriving theater slash music scene that you wouldn't find major metros, you know, and you needed to try it. But I'd argued right up there was Chicago, you know, they've got venues too, but just a smaller version. No, yeah. And I think Marc Gutman 12:31 it was really cool, like in those kind of smaller, mid major towns because Minneapolis isn't like a small town, but it's not Chicago. But when you get the bands that come into town, you get them to yourselves. And so in a way, it's almost better than when you're like trying to fight through a Chicago crowd or an LA crowd or New York crowd for both tickets, just proximity and that type of stuff. You'd be out on the town and you'd run into your favorite band or something like that, which was always so cool. And, and you touched on something and I don't want to get too existential here, but like There really is this awesome idea that, you know, when we align with brands and we, we display those brands, it really says a lot about who we are and you were able to really go out and perhaps and I don't know this to be true. I mean, was this sort of your first touch in realization of the power of brands and aligning with brands and also, not just that you aligned with one brand when what I really heard from you is that, you know, young stix who wasn't stix at the time was really this combination of many brands in order to kind of be the person that you wanted to be. Steve "Stix" Nilsen 13:38 Hundred percent you know, I can honestly this is, again, gonna sound cliche, Fast Times return Hi, I will completely 100% that movie. I went checker dance. But the funny thing is, you can find him in Minnesota. My sister was going to school in Arizona, I get a graduate degree, and they actually she was able to get a pair for me there. And I remember I wore those and they ain't Another thing is I didn't want to wear socks or anything but Korean socks. They were like a science experiment. I mean it was just was so those things were so right. My mom would meet people outside. But those were like a badge of honor walk around those vans because we didn't have them in Minnesota. Now they're solely to get their name bands and always been kind of mail order. Back then it wasn't FedEx, you know, maybe there was but like, I, you weren't gonna get your shoes overnight, right? You find the backup when you said Thrasher or Transworld or skateboarder and that was around, and you'd fill out it was 1799 for tear shoes, whatever it was back then. But those to me that and like camel pants and just a white t shirt. It's pretty cool kit, you know, 1984 you know, whatever it was, you know? I mean it was and so you're right and but you gotta remember that he we didn't have Abercrombie and Fitch, we didn't have, again, Pac son. He didn't have these places. You just like Okay, I'm gonna go to the department store. And then we think of fun ways to maybe monkey around with the clothes. I might not mean to designer I can't so to save my life. But maybe it alters a jacket completely. Obviously you're cut the sleeves off. If you want to. mean like you're just wrong. And by no means again, I wasn't. Let's not paint this picture and walk around like a guy. That's cool enough, but I always try as best I could with what little I had to work with, to tweak it a little bit. You know, I didn't want to be the same shirt, same things, everybody else because they all we all wear the same outfits with costumes, as I like to say, at the time. Marc Gutman 15:18 Yeah. What do you think that interests like in fashion and pop culture came? Because it certainly shows up later in your career. And we'll talk about that. But you know, where do you think that really came from? Where was one of your parents kind of into that stuff? Was it more your association with your friends? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 15:32 No friends, so I came from the most conservative household ever, you know, very Christian, amazing upbringing. I don't have a complaint in the world. It's just very, very conservative. You know, I mean, now the house is pretty much like I think those rooms I still never been in or have been their house, you know, but and that's no disrespect. But definitely I was there was one of my family was near punk rock. I don't know. I have three siblings. My oldest is my brother. And she did introduced me to a lot of bands that I got into late and like I'm talking about the last five years were way before I ever thought I would like it, you know, Fleetwood Mac, he would play jurnee. He would play Pablo Cruz, he would play. What's the one like Michael McDonald, Doobie Brothers, all these things, which at the time I didn't care for, as I've gotten older, like, I kind of dig it back. You know, I mean, it's some of the stuff which I never would have never. That's way too slow for me at the time. But now I've come to appreciate like journey. Like I just got journey's Greatest Hits for President. Are you kidding me? Like, if I know I played in my living room. Marc Gutman 16:33 So we went here that's exclusively with Mack and journey. All right, everybody. So like stix is a Fleetwood Mac journey efficient. Steve "Stix" Nilsen 16:40 I mean, I can't listen all the time. I wouldn't be able to sit still long enough. But the funny thing is, though, my brother did go to concerts a lot. So I kind of got caught. He told me some hilarious stories when this first arena shows me you know, I must have been five years old, and he's going to these and tell me when the house lights went off. The first time it's film that stadiums with North Stars played. He literally thought there was a power outage. You know, they do that. before they get on stage, and I forget who was going to see I think was, oh, Linda Skinner, something like that. And, you know, they cut the house lights, obviously for anyone and he just said how he almost urinated soiled himself because he thought the power was out, you know, but just explain what it's like to go to his first show. But he took me to see kiss. He was in college, and I was in middle school, whatever it was, and I got to see kids when they were in their heyday. This is 1979 or 80 or something like that. got like, that's first time ever smell weeks. I had no idea what the smoke was everywhere. And it just smelled funny, you know? But again, I taken my brother ticularly first kiss show again. That was the full original lineup. So I got to see that was pretty cool. Marc Gutman 17:36 Pretty great claim to fame. So here you are, you know, you're just finding out who you are. You're dabbling and skate culture and music and figuring things out. You know, like, what was your first real job and what was it in marketing or was it Steve "Stix" Nilsen 17:51 God? No. I my first look from a neighbor was he literally had a Chris craft boat where those goodies whether they're called you know the ones for eautiful Have to store that. But in the meet the same time, my brother at this point my brother has was in law school, whatever, but he'd worked for a local golf course. And I ended up because they liked my brother so much. They literally like, I got a job there. And it was awesome because I was in charge of the golf carts. So I go around, but I got to interact with everybody. You know, I mean, anytime you just wanted a cart, I'm going to bring it up in in the golf carts and really actually a really good golf course. So public course. But that was one where I was just, you got to, you know, really interact. A lot of people see different people for different walks of life, because again, it's a public course. Right? And that's where I was introduced to the Beastie Boys, because one of the guys that I worked with him cards, pull out this license, the L tape, and I was like, What is this and I was like, I think I melted the tape. We listen to it so much. And I just was so fascinated because I didn't know anything about hip hop or rap or anything like that. But I loved the Beastie Boys style those guys to me, if anyone has moved the needle culturally, with anywhere, this the Beastie Boys, I'm serious. Like I was So in fact, I'm thinking how could these dudes leave their from Brooklyn and you know, the fighter, right, all that stuff, but if you really outside of that hit that they had. So the subs, like amazing like Paul's boutique, I think is one of most underrated albums. Like, I put in the top 10 most underrated album, I mean, what those guys did. And it's ironic now there's this spike Jones documentary on it, but those guys just look at what they went through. I mean, I remember reading an article they were they bought ups, outfits to wear on on stage, but yet they had a big catalog out of like, retro champion where they were going to do who was doing that at the time, you know, I mean, just retro old school athletic wear, and they were making it cool, you know, and then I saw him play live and I was like, Okay, this is this is a whole nother thing, you know, but that was I roundabout way of saying how I was like, I got exposed to something else. You know, being at this public golf course. It's like, wow, Beastie Boys. What the hell is this? You know, I knew all about punk rock, but I didn't know and then that there became a crossover. Those guys originally. Were coming in, you know, not many people. I don't think That lookup I think it's probably walk stools are first of all up and look it up. Yeah. And Marc Gutman 20:04 so you know musics of throughput through your life where'd you go after the golf course, Steve "Stix" Nilsen 20:08 golf course my senior year and then I worked construction, which, again, great life lessons there. I learned to this day enough to be dangerous. It's Brian wall wiring plumbing. But it also made me realize I didn't want to do manual labor. It was a great experience. I got through with friends we a lot of laughs But I knew it was something that I didn't want to do. Second summer, I worked at a bank. And that was another huge learning experience because I'd have to go every morning I put on a tie go down downtown Minneapolis, and I remember calling my parents saying I'm going to be in college for 15 years. This is what the real world is like, because I can't it was just like, droids marching every day. The same thing was just a miserable experience on under artificial light in a cube. You were wearing a tie. I was wearing a tie. Yep. And I the funny part is I'd have to drive myself First Avenue to get to the where I worked. And I thought someone's gonna just pull me out of my jeep and just wild me for wearing a tie so close to sacred spot like that, right? Who would have thunk it years earlier, I'm waiting in line with all the other kids trying to get a ticket. And I drive by and wearing a tie. Right? And then I thought that the most the least painful thing to do would be to be a copywriter because I was originally an English major, and I didn't know what to do with that. I loved it. I got to work on the Harley Davidson account. I got to work on this thing called Skeeter Boats. I'm not kidding you. But it was like it was a cool environment. My boss was really cool. I got college credit for it, which is awesome. From there, I went to work for Northwest Airlines. And the reason I'm telling you that is the fact that I studied abroad in Australia for a bit and by that when I got this internship with united with Northwest Airlines, which became Delta, they just opened up the Australian market. So they actually ran everything by me to see if it was going to be authentic or not. And it was just something about travel once again. I'm like wow, this place I live in this earth. I got credit for it. And my payments was they gave me four tickets to go anywhere in the world. I wanted to go back paying cash. And then my last internship for credit was I work for a public relations for Minnesota North Stars, the hockey team. And I obviously did a great job for Dallas the next year. No, it really I just didn't realize I didn't want to work. It's not what it's cracked up to be to work for protein. But it's not okay. When you're in the bowels of the stadium, not not only the fun part was those I part of my job is to take players to go talk to schools. And that was, I will argue that not just because I play hockey, but professional hockey players are probably the coolest pro athletes will ever meet your life. They're so humble and self mocking and appreciative and because most of them did come from small towns in Canada or Europe or wherever, or or they went right into juniors and never really got finished high school. So for them, they're just happy go lucky and it was a great experience. So that's a long winded way of explaining kind of experiences I had. Marc Gutman 22:57 Yeah, where'd you go on those four free trips. Steve "Stix" Nilsen 23:00 Let's see I blew my knee out. So I went to see a friend in Maui who's a dive instructor. I'm a certified no Patty diving, whatever. And I would just because I couldn't move my leg, I think I could every day, which is diving groups. And I just tagged on behind the group. So I got to scuba dive every day for free for 10 days, where my leg was just dragged behind me in the water, and I did that. So I think I went to San Francisco but then I went back to Australia, because after I graduated college I got and that's where I had my epiphany for my career. That's where I was like, that's when the light bulb went off. I know the exact spot on Bondi Beach rather sitting having a beard like seeing that when there's a skate they used to have skate ramps, now their actual cement bowls, and I remember I want to be an actual sports. I was watching these guys surf and like I want to be this is this is like I would go into the surf shops and every corner I would always want to surf shops. There's this brand SNP that wasn't really a player for a while it actually sports business and that was bought by Riot snowboards and then it's just kind of like it's licensed out now. But that's a hot brand on Australia. The time is just fascinating. Everything about everything. Every little magazine I get my hands on. I was absolutely infatuated and funny thing is my job down there had nothing to do with music art or action sports. It looked I was writing copy for a nonprofit that I care because it gave me a tax ID to live there for a year and live on a beach. So that's really where I was like, This is what I do. Marc Gutman 24:19 Yeah, like, what was the will kind of take a little moment here, but like, what was the scene like that? I mean, was there really like an action sports industry at that time? Or is it more like these sort of like little brands, little skate shops, like what does it look like at that time? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 24:34 It's, you know, the one thing that was starting to take off at that point was snowboarding. Okay, this is 95 year of 95. And I lived in Australia, and I made my way over to New Zealand to ride it's called the remarkable mountains over there. I mean, I still have my first snowboard jacket that literally is a glorified flannel with like a Teflon pad on the bottom and it's funny, it's like dropped, which frankly is back in style, though. I should pass it on next year. But never it was just everything about it to me though black flies was like the hot sunglass brand and they made goggles my first goggles were black box okay, but it wasn't it were the really the final part. The final catalyst for me saying this is what I have to do is I got back to the states turned down some job offers were literally charity from like my buddy's parents You know, it just it was nothing I would have accelerated or really enjoyed. It doesn't matter what it was. I t just was not to me it's more corporate stuff right. And I went to my first work tour. And at that point was the second year of the tour. I missed the first year living in Australia but I saw it in a magazine and they had a couple bands so I just still to this day love orange nine millimeter quicksand l seven, some wine was a part of the first one. And I drove to Milwaukee Wisconsin with my girlfriend at the time. And that's where I saw a Warped Tour and I still have some photos of like me in the pit shooting with a 35 millimeter inside, penny wise and then the outside me shooting guy skating the skateboard and remember going this is what I want to be this What I've got to do like this is so me just just people having fun was punk rock. We're skaters. And then the brands that were part of that, you know, at the time it was billabong, and I think even though there's a thing called split, it was it was a clothing brand. They were part of it. But they had a little booth there. And, you know, I was a little kid in the candy store free stickers. I mean all that like I get it. You know, that was my first taste. But yeah, this is like marketing 101 or grassroots marketing, just get the brand in people's hands and let them decide for themselves where to put the stickers what to do what brands, you know what I mean? And that was that was my aha, like, Okay, I'm onto something here. Because there's no way there'd be a tour like this if this wasn't what yet. But you got to remember, this is before magic zoomies existed at that point. But before these was in the stores started, really, really being a little more prominent in cities more and more popping up and skateboards is something it had been in California, obviously in some pockets around the US. But I was sitting there going, Hey, how can I get in this business? And that was literally like that. I mean, I was like laser focus. Like how many The minute I got home, I started my long slog and try to get my foot in the door. Marc Gutman 27:05 Yeah. And so it's so interesting to me. I mean, you know, from a very young age when you describe those internships, you were very astute to align your interests with some sort of business need, right? So you know, you love to travel so you went to work for the airline, you loved hockey, so you went to the North Stars realized it wasn't for you, but that's okay. And then you go to Australia and you have this like, you know, this this epiphany and what I was imagining when you were talking just about that environment were with grassroots marketing and people handing out stickers. It was so interesting to me. It's kind of like where we are now today with social media, right? Where we're like brands don't really own the brand. There's all this conversation and all this interaction going on outside the brand, by the customers by their by by the fan base and very much like that was happening for you, right, like everyone's handing out stickers and authenticating the brand and having their own conversation. Somebody was just like, really interested. To me, but you come back and you're like, I want to be in this business. I mean, what's that plan? I mean, so, Hey, man, I've been struck a few times in my life to where I'm like, I know exactly what I want to do. And I have this amazing fantasy. And then I go like, Oh, crap. Now I got to like, actually make it a reality. And sometimes that doesn't always add up. Like how did you like, start that process of getting into action sports and actually making a career out of it? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 28:26 Honestly, I grabbed every magazine I could get my hands on. And I just got to the players were and not not in a backdoor I'm in it was like I just I knew brands that I really liked. brands who maybe didn't resonate with me as much and I had no choice. This is pre internet. Like I'm cold call, right? Well, then I find out there's this thing called si a show. And I literally was 300 bucks for like three nights and airfare to Treasure Island at Vegas. And I went into the show with resume And the funny part is I've never really told him the story. I was thinking to myself because I was surrounded by like, how am I gonna? Help me stand apart? Like, these guys probably gonna have pluses I didn't know what the trim bro man that everyone's just kind of gets backdoor bro jobs. And in Minnesota like I grew up in a walk, right so I've flown ski I wakeboarder which is how I destroyed my leg. But I also compare for so I literally was handing out these resumes with us a picture staples of me barefoot, right because I thought that was kind of badass. Like, you know, I didn't know what I know now about how what like a charity of sorts and he's actually sports Branson, so I'm sure in high tech Okay, cool. You know, you don't hindsight 2020 but I thought how can I turn some heads or get some attention with my resume? So I attached picture of me barefooting you know, cuz I still do those tumble turns and go down. You can spin around and get back on your feet again. I thought you know, someone find that interesting, but they got it in hindsight. I mean, I might as well Wearing a tutu? No, they probably thought, who's this clown. So I literally when I went started doing was collecting business cards. Everywhere I went and I took some, some people were nice enough to give me like a honcho card. And other people would give me like a customer service persons card, it didn't matter. And then I thought, Okay, I'm going to take what I learned at the agency, and I took their ads from the different brands and I made them funny. I just stopped funding them making stuff and get a kick out. So I was mailing back at this again, pre internet, so I was really going to everyone under the sun Marc Gutman 30:33 Yeah, how are you making ads talk about that. I mean, were you like making collages with paper Steve "Stix" Nilsen 30:37 I would take their ads out of the magazine Exacto and change their headline, or take a Polaroid or something and kind of superimposed on at the time and it was kind of a cool come to write, but I didn't, I didn't I didn't register, Marc Gutman 30:50 but you're not using like a computer or like Photoshop or anything. Steve "Stix" Nilsen 30:53 I didn't have any of that. I didn't have computer for years. And I thought I would mail them back and of course then I will The phone call and you gotta remember man, like, I'm trying to get my career all my buddies are in Wall Street. You know, that was where I grew up. I wrote that set with those guys role. And that's nothing wrong with that just wasn't my scene, but you know, and then my parents dining room table, you know no buddies are all partying in New York, right? But I just knew I couldn't do it but I kept calling, calling calling some people I got through to some people I didn't. But I just knew that I knew I was so mobile. I was like, someone want to be moved to California because I was moved to Chula Vista for that brand SMP. I would, I probably never would have left Southern California and I moved to California, and it just didn't pan out. But again, it just you just lesson learned. You got to try and try and try again because you are gonna have the door slammed in your face, especially that industry being as young as it was at the time. I mean, it was like the ultimate like old boys network, you know, and, boy, good luck breaking into that. And I just knew I was going to be an asset to a brand but I also still knew I need to learn a lot from pinion that only makes a mistake once and never having a mistake again and I'll own up to it. You know, so that's really where I was at the time. Marc Gutman 32:03 But I'm sorry, I missed that. Did you? Did someone bite on that? And did you get a job? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 32:08 Yeah, I what had happened is I was getting so down in the dumps. And the one brand that I focused in on because they weren't every single magazine snow surface skate magazine was arawak. And at the time, they had the who's who, every sport. They even had a few surfers, and I was taking their ads and doing stuff in cut. I don't remember her last meeting, but the director of marketing, same thing was Nina. All I remember is that they were they moved from Carlsbad, California to Pennsylvania, and I was just thrashing around with letters, and I call call call cold call. And then I picked up the phone one day and said, hey, it's Steve Nilson, you know, and she was Oh, it's cute kid again, because Listen, kid, I don't have time to talk to you. My house just burned down. I gotta leave for Europe and fires like, Alright, I gotta go. So I mailed her a smoke detector in the mail. And she called me like last But two weeks, three weeks later, she's Oh my god, you have balls kids like, Yeah, she flew me out. And that's what I end up getting a job. That's what I needed. That's why I was always confident, like, one on one with someone, but I just needed a chance. I just needed someone open the door for me, you know, and apparently I did well, my interview, you know, but I just I guess maybe I was so pumped up from trying to get in the industry that I probably overwhelmed with all those feeling. It was just longing for an opportunity to just like, show I know what I was talking about. And I guess the one thing that you know, I was fortunate enough to go to some really good schools Is that you? I was I learned how to kind of cut mentalize and articulate what I not only looked at the industry and just being a sponge, which showed me how when I'm interested in something, I am like that idiot savant. Like I can just absorb everything. Remember every little detail and I think I would probably overwhelmed with them when I was interviewed at arawak. But again, all I needed was that chance and they gave it to me and the rest of you know what that is. So that was my first stepping stone but I had this Fight and claw to get that, because there was still an old boys network even at erawan at the time, they're like, why would you hire a guy from Minnesota? No. And my parents were so blessed because they taught me early on things when only manners but being a good listener. And, you know, by that you can you can learn from people and comment on it versus some people just want to be heard all the time. And so I've been blessed the way I was raised, because I think that I was able to do both of them. I was a student of the game, but then some that I was going to go out this kind of a calculating way and not just fly by night for stuff against the wall. Hope it sticks. Marc Gutman 34:34 You know? Do you remember that first day at arawak? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 34:37 I do. And you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. I feel again, I haven't really ever told anyone this but I just remember one of the first big meetings I was at. And there was a few people and again, it doesn't matter who it is whatever else but I just sit there going in my brain. Were positions that I wanted and going, Oh my gosh, I know I could run circles around this person. Like no comparison and I I was amazed. It's my first taste. And it happens to this day of people you could put in positions either, you know, right or wrong happens. But I'm thinking, I would absolutely crush that position. And that was the only thing where I was like, Okay, I'm the one getting chided, because I'm from Minnesota, and I'm looking at these people, like, I'm sorry, but there was just I started questioning these people could even put a sentence together, you know what I mean? Like, you'd be cool all day long, like, Hey, man, there's got to be a business acumen to this too. You know, that's all it was just again, no disrespect to anyone in particular. It was just more of I sat there going, wait a second. So I'm getting chided by these guys. And I'm sitting there going, you got to be kidding me. Like, what? You know, um, so that was a big eye opener whether it was an old boys network was just like, selling to someone and that kind of thing. And I don't know, this is a brand you can't just off your Bros. Like you gotta have people who bring in people that know what they're doing, you know, but I think then again, I wasn't a physician because I had no experience at the time to do that. I know like the stand up. So became my goal. to basically get these What do you want to say? feathers, my capper arrows in my quiver to learn, learn, learn, learn and learn. So every part of the business, the sales part, the marketing part, the production part. And that's what I set out to do. Marc Gutman 36:13 And so what was your role when you started and what was your role when you left Steve "Stix" Nilsen 36:17 So funny that when I started, I'm not kidding you. My first thing because I wanted to get my foot in the door, was I was a merchandiser. I'm not kidding. So my skin my role was to run around big to stores and make sure our stuff look good. But the funny thing is, it became very, very obvious to me that we were doing it wrong. And I was so low on the totem pole. No one would listen to me but like, the Tony Hawk shoe should not been to Carnival should not have been on the wall at journeys, because that was the lifeblood of the skate shops. And I started telling him that but the person who reported you didn't want any part of it was the type of person that just never wanted to rock the boat and just kind of did on the roof. And I was just didn't sit with me. I'm like, No, no You can't just do enough. All right, don't check box. It's like this isn't right. We're headed for disaster here. Because back to skate shops like I felt comfortable in skate shops. And to this day, I could go have a conversation with a kid about skaters or surfers snowboarders. You don't I mean, it's a different it's, it's almost like a little clubhouse of sorts. But that was a real eye opener. So what did I do? I just tried to like I went to Nordstrom for Pete's sake, we had our shoes in Nordstrom. Okay. And I'm sitting there going, Okay, like, there's no product differentiation here. Like we can't be having the skate stuff in a Nordstrom. You just can't do that to these little shops because, you know, they were, you know, less than what you'd get it. You know, I mean, Nordstrom just undercutting and price wise, I guess maybe not torture, but you know, some of the other places the bigger big box stores mean arawak ended up paying for the sins of all the brands that are in malls now. Because it was so it was just antichrist to have your shoes, or any action sports apparel in a mall, you know? So that was where I started and then at these meetings, I would say this is what I'm seeing out in the field, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And to make a long story short, basically they said, okay, tough guy. If you see an issue with a pricing, one, you want to get development. And that's when I got into the snowboard boot development, and spent three weeks a month in Asia building summer boots, and it's actually dabbled in shoes as well in the skate stuff. And again, total eye opener, got to travel the world like, you know, see, Bangkok see Hong Kong numerous times, Taiwan, Thai Chung, you know, and the funny thing is at the time that he was getting all the crap for sweatshops, but they're getting picked on because of the big one and having success but we all share the law at all. But we all share the same factories. They were the ones who just the big target, but I thought was so funny that they were getting all this heat, the sweatshop thing and we're all in it. And frankly, factory jobs like the best job in town, a lot of those places they were getting, you know, people lived on campus. They three square meals a day, their schools for the kids, it was actually like Good deal for the local locals. So I just I learned a ton from that time being a product developer. And then fast for the last role I held was was basically snow marketing measure. You know, working with Mike arts and Joe Babcock and the abs. It's funny, it shifted from being a rapper to going into development. And that was the last role I had was was when they moved the company to Colorado, and I was working the snow division. Marc Gutman 39:32 This episode brought to you by wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story Helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Yeah, and so in at that point, you know, you were doing snowboard boot development, you're in the snow division. Did you start doing some of those unique collabs at AIR walk or was that a little bit later in your career? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 40:48 That was that came later. But I think that why those came to me was because of my understanding of product timelines, raw materials, how that works, how the how they come to production. caliber work. So if you want to work with a brand like, Hey, we want to do a shoe or a jacket rubber for it, let's do it for, you know, 2021 season Well, this day and age, I don't care how good the technology, you still can't get anything done that fast. And you're gonna like, probably wouldn't be able to unless you put a patch on something that's an existing silhouette, you know, but again, we did, I will be honest with you. I mean, I do have a few pieces that I have made for myself over there that are one off, and it's just kind of fun to have something that no one else in the world has, you know, because I knew that just custom shoes for friends and family, things like that. It's not a big deal. All I do is have a little extra different material to make the tongue a little different color or whatever. That was super fun for me. And again, I can't draw to save my life. But I think one of the things that I was able to do because my time is merchandiser when we would do a design review and put all the silhouettes on the wall. I'd like to think I picked out probably the one was going to sell the best off the shelf. Like I don't know what it is. I just Look at it took me two seconds, I look at that one. And I'm not saying it always was the case. But I think that again, I want my learnings of being at retail, and going to numerous countless, because I covered the whole Midwest accounts, everything from shields, in the Dakotas to these little skate shops, like I was like, okay, that's okay, what the company is doing that they're not going to do. Now given. Once I went into the office environment. I was more traveling to like trade shows and events and things like that I wasn't on the boots on the ground as much. But again, unfortunately, that culminated in so many poor decisions made by the teams, the leadership that by the time, my counterparts and I got a position to do anything that brand was pretty much done, unfortunately. So that was my MBA. I'm not the only one. Were my office, my family and I have a master's degree and that was my extra degree. And how not to do business was what I learned. arawak Yeah, when I started getting that would arawak argue is one of the top action sports brands of any time. We just made the number boots on word. I thought they were eating burdens lunch wise. And they haven't done head to toe yet. But just if you look at the old rosters of the teams, I mean, there was no comparison. You know, it was that hot and to the way that that that poor decisions that were made, in hindsight and again, it was just it bringing the sales guys from the big shoe companies, you know, phila, Reebok wherever, didn't sell these guys were taking orders, it dumped the shoes on the table and furniture, knees, that's looking stuffs, the skate stuff that ended up in journeys. And then we just choke out the little guys that they've relied on Jeff rally shoe. There were a lot in 2002. There were a lot of Jason Lee, there are a lot you know, Mike Frazier, and we kill them. We literally like it. Because again, Vance wasn't a player that they are now. And it was asked us at these events on the wall, the skate shops, and the majority Was there one shoot and it's just to see that happen and not really have any control and I'm never gonna get in that position again. That was brutal. Marc Gutman 43:56 Yeah, and you're I mean, you really did you. I mean, you hit it like it's heyday like where it was like at its best. And then due to private equity and demands on shareholder returns really kind of just went went downhill and didn't go the right way. But, you know, like you said, you did get basically an MBA there, you learn so much. I mean, we don't have to get into it now. But I know that you have so many close friends from those from those days as well and that have gone on to do other things. But from that point, you sort of start like a new chapter of your career, which really is turned into canned beverages in a weird way. And so if I forgot this, right, you went to red balls that right? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 44:38 Yeah, Marc Gutman 44:39 yeah. And so you got there and oh, my gosh, talk about sort of the poster child for action sports marketing. I mean, really, is there anything you know, at the time better? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 44:53 No, you know, I have to be honest with you like, the stars aligned for me at that point. It was without trying me. It took me a year. To get hired, and that's how they were so new, no one who had an energy drink was, when I think about it, we was it was so crazy, I guess would be the best way. And I'm not I'm not kidding you. It's like I won the lottery. Because all sudden, overnight, you know, again, they didn't have the brand equity yet they were they were gonna build that. But overnight, I basically had a, you know, on my expense report, I had a line item for a long time, like I could expense I mean, who does that? Right? And it took me a while to really, I was one of the first force marketing managers and I remember I've always believed in rolling my sleeves and training my team. I've never asked anyone to do something I would do myself. And I was putting on an event somewhere and I'm in Brighton all over the venue, right? And my boss stopped me. He's still a dear friend. He's like, Dude, what are you doing? And I'm like, dude, I gotta help you. Because that's why you have a budget to hire the event crew to worry about. Okay, I need you to make sure everything's straight. Like, again, you want to help, that's fine. You're going to help us big time by making sure your branding looks right and whenever it's just chill, like let the worker bees work. Your phone And so it's not saying I ever got comfortable with that. But but then it got to the point where we literally live by the mantra like, pay the fine. Like we asked for forgiveness, not permission. And it was unbelievable because right then we ended up having to remember the channel crossing. You know, we are Felix Baumgartner goes across the English Channel on a jet when he does that, right. And that became a benchmark where it was like, Alright, what's our next channel crossing? Because I've made international news, you know, and so that was where the heat was turned up on us as sports, right matches, what's the next athlete project you're going to do? What's the next event? What is the next channel crossing, you know? And so it was overwhelming to me. I mean, they treated us so well at Red Bull. I mean, just it's, the company is very, very skewed like they, they get it does have that euro vibe. They're very, very like driven and results driven. But the difference, this is one thing I've learned, which is my soft spot, is that I was never ever held to a scalable number. All right stix you do that we better sell X amount of cases. Never, ever once in my tenure, there was I ever held my hand held to the candle saying, if you're doing this, you better said we better sell more cancel. They just knew it. And I think that that is a key to a really, really successful team is when you all have a common goal, but you trust each other. And no one's ever packing anyone else. No one's ever like, well, he did this. She did that or whatever. No, it was like the part that became the biggest pressure cookers when we'd meet a couple times a year and we'd literally have each, each of us or five of us would get called out to the carpet. Okay, what's the next big idea? That's pretty when you got the Austrians over here, and they're like, what, what's next? What do we do? What's the next idea? And that you could never have the exclusive This is the crazy thing. Think about this. Money was never an excuse. Like I mean, I didn't know that was $960,000. Okay, money was never so that was not new, you could hide behind. But the funny part is, you can have a very, very impactful event with just a case of product in a bottle of vodka. You know, I mean, it's just dependent on you don't I mean? How to do that. Not everything was a home run. Not every single thing resonated. But this is before you know, certainly before any social media, you know, so the only output we had for a lot of this content was it was originally a G shock rush hour I think it was called some like that which became fuel TV. Well fuel TV. It was that like after a while, like okay, rebel, you're doing amazing stuff. But this is also becoming the rebel channel. We can't use all your content, which is why Red Bull and they started getting into this when I parted ways in the rebel media house where they become their own production and all that and, you know, it's funny, ESPN even sniffed out as well. It is brilliant on rebels. Yeah, they were painted by this crazy airtime and New Years and just put their own branded events on there. And you'll get basically if you consider what the cost of media buys, it was nothing was a drop in the bucket for Redbull to reach millions and millions, millions of people something super unique. You know, like Robbie Maddison doing the lawn rolls large jump over a football field. Or you know, All righty, Madison stuff. You've seen it years. And that's typical red bull, like we're going to come in. We're coming hot. We're going to do it right now. It's gonna be people can't touch us probably, you know, cost wise, you know? Marc Gutman 49:05 So why'd you leave red bull, if it was so great? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 49:07 You know what? Honestly there's like any company there was um, shifts and how they were going to do originally the sports marketing crew reported to Santa Monica and had a dotted line to Austria and and that got watered down and there was they decentralized that and you know it's like anything you get Growing Pains is a big company and you know when I started a sports marketing manager, you handle everything from a soapbox race or a photog which maybe you've seen where you know, flying the means when people make their own little crafts or jump off a deck, you know, they've done it everywhere all over the country of Portland, Santa Monica New York City. All sudden they broke it out to right now you're gonna have an event manager you're gonna have an athlete manager. It's just got her water down. I'm not saying from a control freak perspective that I needed my hand and everything. But then they want to they were talking about shifting people move different places, but surely wasn't really Colorado and Pascual Riven came out of nowhere and different stuff to think about how to hem and haw about us the passing of the money was pretty much a dormant brand. But I could sense there was this brand equity that was building because the athletes I care I could give whatever they wanted whatever bottles surface especially the skates know guys like I want Pepsi. Pepsi ribbon. I had had that in college and that was literally because it was whatever's on sale. Right. And it's just had this cachet to it as an escape guys special they're just like password and password like what is going on? And it's funny how that segue happened. Because I went in there going Oh, yeah, I can do some fun with this brand in the back of my head going holy crap. How you gonna pull this off with nobody? You know, I mean, talking I said over and over again talking about going penthouse to the poorhouse. That's exactly what happened. The budget was big time. Yeah, but then Marc Gutman 50:47 so and what was that? Like? What was the marketing plan at paps? I mean, like you said you have a lot, you know, not very much budget. So how did you deal with that? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 50:58 Well, the one thing that It became very clear to me was I had something that 99% of events need. And that's alcohol. And I knew if I could figure out the distribution system, you can't ship alcohol in certain legal but we had hired FM's field marketing managers, our market agents we had a calling in different cities. And we thought you know, we're going to do this as grassroots as in as in person as possible in you know, in marketing to amplify the brand. But we if the stars align the way a couple things got one, we were in a recession, okay, to perhaps in having marketing behind. So if nothing was being shoved down consumer throats, this is the you know, PB army SAP, none of that, but it was just it just chugged along. And we're cheap. I mean, the bottom line is with that, and I often like to refer to Goodwill hunting. Remember that that wealthy girl starts dating Matt Damon, and it's almost like she's kind of slinging it. He says to her, it's almost like you know, paps had this like kind of dirty connotation to it. You know, like you're a little dirty. I have in the past. The big aha moment for me, I think it was 2010, something like that. We did a, I'm sorry, I was approached friend or friend type thing, which is where a lot of my opportunities came from, like once I was able to pass on some of these doors started opening for me in music, art and action sports because of my relationships and past jobs. And I got hit up by I don't remember what brand it was. It was Alexander when tech ran, but it was one of the brands was doing an event during fashion week in New York City and they said, We want taps there. And I'm sitting there scratching my head like, Okay, I have zero money to give you. This is something Heineken would pay 10 grand just to be in the door. I don't get it. So I said I will sponsor this but I need to be able to come check it out. And sure enough, I went there. I didn't have a black turtleneck like everybody else but whatever. That's right. And I walked backstage and it's passed in these bins and you know, they do that where they put the cloth drape in there and then they put water in the bins. It was us some shishi water and don't carry on. I'm not kidding you. But when the light bulb went off when I was sitting Around whenever he was milling about after the show was a runway show, and I sat there and watched it and whatever, didn't get half of what these people were wearing, but whatever I'm supposed to, but I saw these little wavy models carrying pops in their head. And I knew, right, well, they wanted nothing to do with the liquid inside. It had everything to do with it, they had that camera in their hand. And that to me was like that is brand equity. And literally, I always kind of looked at apps that way, I looked at it as it's not, we're not a beer company. We're a brand. And I think it drove the other beer companies nuts because they just couldn't figure out how to crack our code. But they weren't set up to. They couldn't be nimble. They couldn't do what we did. And we never asked permission, just like Redbull we just did it and we'd literally get asked for forgiveness. And I can say now knock on wood. I didn't have one thing but you the button, and there's a lot of illegal things that happen just because of the restrictions and laws with alcohol that we pulled off afterwards things but I can stand I can really say that The broadcasts that the only time I wrote a check in almost a decade at tops were in front event was to reimburse people in Salt Lake City. They were doing events like around Sundance or doing some spice, the sneaker shop, things like that. I just did. They can't by law, they couldn't go pick up products so I literally reimburse them that was it. But I never wrote checks robots ever once. Just for my it's not anything so grassroots. Marc Gutman 54:23 Yeah. And I think you got really creative as well with a lot of the, you know, collabs that you did in the sense that you were able to take and find a brands that you love, but also brands that could elevate pops, but also in turn, perhaps could elevate that brand. And finding really good fits. Can you give us an example of a couple, maybe one or two of like your favorite car labs and how that went down? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 54:48 Well, I one of the first ones I did just kind of funny, makes it come full circle was a shoe. And it was with Ked's, Ked's, right. And I remember At the time, there was a skate brand called Supra. And still around somewhere, but at the time, you know, it was really a kind of skate brand. And the reason I went to Cannes is that they're American made. It's a long story. I didn't win. But because I understood, again, timelines, raw material production, no one really paid any mind to it. I just kind of ran with the project, and how to make an X amount of pairs. And then I got him out to the field. And then everyone started losing. What are you talking about? I still have a couple pairs myself, what are these come from, like, whatever. And that that was, again, purposeful, I didn't make very many pairs, but then keds came back because they posted it. And they're saying, Oh, my God, Urban Outfitters just said that they would literally put in, like a seven figure order in the shoes. And I was like, Great, good for them. Nope. And they're like, what? And the salesmen are just like begging and he's a good dude, but I was just like, dude, you don't get it like that's not like I'm not getting a lot of random poured out again, I refuse, I will quit before I would let you get this in urban outfitters and that's what they've obviously got their own niche, but no way that would, I would absolutely go against ever thing that I can burn up in the past. So that was one of the first ones and then the one that I think really lit the fire, I'd like to think was the finding the snowboard binding I did with union because that one, George over there was still a really good friend of mine and I completely saw I'd I'd heard you because they'd have a very, very clean distribution. They're very well respected. The product is amazing. And I really really had so much fun because it reminded me when I was making boots because it's snowboarding which is like my favorite activity in the world. And we had the idea of you know, we're not going to sell these we're gonna do X amount and I believe I want to say we did I mean it was like, they took their top 20 shops, each shop got five pairs, and they didn't tell them are coming and all sudden they just showed up and it's like do you want if you want to sell them that's fine with some of the shops do that's cool. It's gonna help a local shop or give them your Stoke up an employee, do a raffle. And that was one that I'm most proud of because it caused the most commotion. That's what I knew. We were onto Something. I mean, people were like, I've never been more blown in my life than when those dropped by people like every, and we're talking like high up at Nike, like a burden. All these places like hitting me up, like saying, How do I get my hands on those, and that's where I was just the most as humbled and I was just really proud. Proud of the fact to the past, let me do that, you know, it was kind of an S forgiveness, not permission. But just like with Red Bull, there's a trust there that it was gonna be done. Right. And so that opened the floodgates, all of a sudden, every you know, so many brands were hitting us up to clap, but they were doing it for the wrong reason. You know, there's some brands that honestly they were they were trying to hitch their wagon to the, to the momentum we had as a brand and I just wasn't gonna let that happen. I don't know. And you just start to figure out when you do this long enough, who is who has, you know, their best interests in mind and who are just in it. I hate to say after like a quick buck, you know, I have sunglass companies that I'd never heard of hit me up, unlike absolutely not, you know, so it's nice. I guess that's pretty telltale when you have a lot of rejection. To use when you have other established brands asking you to work with them, you know, you can have haters too. And I kind of really got a kick out of the haters because, you know, they'd love to bash the beer. And I just water off a duck's back to me, Ambassador, but yet you're the first guy, he's gonna hit me up for swag, you know. And so yeah, it was. It was a great run. Let's put that way. Marc Gutman 58:25 Yeah, and you know, and it takes incredible discipline to have that outlook, especially in marketing or marketing and sales, right. And there's so much pressure and to have this discipline to say look like, we're going to give these cola products to the people that really represent the brand at the barbacks the lift these the people at the skate shop, like you have this real intuition that by doing that by staying disciplined, it was going to have the maximum reach but like how did you stay disciplined? I mean, it's it's not easy to say no, especially when You have colleagues, when you have people at the company saying, look, we can make a lot more money, we can hit our goals, we can do bigger and better things like how do you maintain that discipline for the good of the brand? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 59:10 You know? Because, again, you guys hired me at past and I were the perfect. It's like the odd couple, because he was very analytical. We actually just spoke the other day, great guy. And he understood the process. I didn't know anything about the bigger business. But I also think that helped me because I didn't come in there with your goggles on the pun intended, you know what I mean? Like I came in, you know, and then like any industry, there is no voice. And I learned that real quick in beer, that it's definitely you know, boys are especially with the distributors. But when there was something that had him reach out to me and said, Hey, I need to talk to you. And we were connected only because a kid who used to work at rebel was was working at paps and said, Hey, you should talk to this guy is because we're growing here and we were afforded a board of directors at the time. And I could tell some of them were just you know, arms crossed. Cuz this kid from Red Bull, you know, and maybe some saying we better do what you hear we did Red Bull kind of thing. So yeah, there was maybe maybe there were self and self induced pressures, I don't know. But my boss though we didn't know each other that well he managed me like, I guess, successful manager we have and that's like give me enough rope to hang myself and don't put them in a position that they're gonna have to answer. And I never did that to any of my bosses, right did something super dumb and a bunch of money or did something that could have gotten something out of harm's way. I never did that. So there was just that level of trust there. And it worked. It's just, again, the stars align for the past Man, I wish you know, I'm gonna make this very clear. Like we had a really amazing brand team. So I can't take all that you know, any since I last spoke in the wheel, whatever word analogy we use, but we all trust each other. And as we grew, you know, the cool part is they were taking people out of the field and putting them in positions to run division. So one guy has to be the market manager for Colorado now runs these Still here, all things PBR art. We another guy who came from the east coast, who was East Coast man and director of field marketing, became director of music, he all music initiatives, and I would kind of cross pollinate with those guys an opportunity to have there be a little art show or a little record, release party, whatever, it just work. And again, in the heyday of paths, it was, you know, recession, we were cheap. And again, there was no marketing message out there didn't shut down anyone's throat. The idea was, let everyone decide for themselves what pass needs to them. We're not going to sit there and shut anything down their throat, we're not going to roll into a bar with arms full of swag, you know, out of the gate, because it just cheapens your brand. It's like No, your point, who is really passionate about it, and take care of the little people. It's not hard. It's not I mean, people that you know, you just said our backs, no patrol, lift these rumors. You know, we're talking serious. You know, I mean, anyone that people are cleaning up an event space, take care of them. You know, I always believed in The event production crew you know, I mean I'm one year over took the whole backstage which Coachella had, you know, it's sponsored huge sponsorship dollars by a prominent beer brand and literally flooded the whole back area for the workers with things they needed functional right meaning sweatbands, visors, trucker hats, bandanas and then of course, it was a nondescript bus we had passed available to the crew, which this fear company lost it, they couldn't figure out how this is happening. But all it was doing was was fulfilling a need. And we were tipping our hat to all these hard workers that are laying cable scaffolding, you know, have thankless jobs making everyone else can dress like a gypsy of the field and take selfies there. The reason why and that's what we did. It's just again, we went there was no elitist VIP parties. There's like no, no, we you know, we're now that the only thing we did Honest to God, I mean, yeah, we were in some house parties in around Coachella, but we literally there's a Rouse that's like across the street from the venue and we just help the local sales. People are kept stocking, restocking stocking stocking the Ralph's and then giving out swag to the concert goers. So Oh, you need you need, you need a lip balm? Here's a little, you know, some some of this tchotchke stuff I never would do otherwise. But this is a case where we talked about it. And we said, you know, what can we do around this, this is something that people will need, they're going to need to have, and boy did that stuff get gobbled up, you know. And so that was it. But that's how we had to do was we were gonna sit there and write a giant check the K rock, you know, or something like that. So we just had to be scrappy. And that was fun, because then you're meeting your consumer space and these people had a name and a face to pass. You know? I mean, let's put it this way. There wasn't a golf shirt or pleaded slack anywhere near any of the stuff we were doing in the field. Marc Gutman 1:03:44 Yeah, and super creative and super authentic. And if working for a small, underground, not underground, just a smaller beer brand that had no budget wasn't hard enough. You decided to continue on your career trying to brand the old ultimate challenge something that we all get for free water where are you now Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:04:05 that's yeah I'm with liquid death and water and and I was connected to well there's there's two founders actually mean founder Meister sorry last year and I don't remember how long the conversation was but it's just it's what most people we all we all run into in our life for wealth so you just click and I think we talked for at least an hour, if not more and he was explaining to me what what his vision was for the brand and I so much of it was in my wheelhouse because of his background like he's played in punk bands. He loves football, he loves skateboarding, and frankly, he admired what paps have done. And I don't remember but we we start having a lot of people we knew in common, but only that a lot of the views on how to cultivate a brand. But my my hat goes off to Mike because he is really the visionary of what's going on. I am Trying to add what I can with my guess because a lot of it is done just getting using my network and helping amplify the brand getting cancer enhance to the overuse term every day nowadays marketing or, or businesses couldn't. And, you know, I'm such a people person and I'm used to being at events, having meetings with brands being in different cities, that's all been grounded now. So, like Pax, what is great is that I've been shipping out water left and right to people. And this isn't just, it's not a celebrity thing. It's not whatever, it's just friends. You know, I want my buddy's Mom, you know, wives and mothers to have it I want you know, I can give this product to newborns, I can give it to elderly. But with this pandemic, you know, I'm flattered how many people have been posting about it. And I'm sorry, but there isn't. You can't get more authentic content and people just doing it on their own. You know, I've been asked anyone to do it, but you're right. It is something everyone needs. got too much or too little water and dye, but this whole desk the plastic can and Mike it stated that in an interview is in like the CPG business like it's been so conservative and I'm gonna use this term now he didn't say it, but he just puts it when people just kind of like afraid to like ruffle feathers and right you know, and I understand that there's a game you have to play to get into grocery, there's a game you have to play to get into convenience that there's no doubt, that's not my specialty. My specialty is, you know, working with cool people doing cool shit, which people in turn want to buy. And that's where we get back to what you'd asked me earlier and I just I literally won't know when your assistant asked me to put that in a bio. But that's essentially it, you know, and, you know, it's like, it reminds me a lot with passed in the way that, you know, we're this upstart brand, but we're going to be in the being the bonnet and and we're not a water company. We're brand, right. And that's the part that I have experiences, you know, and I'm able to draw off what I learned at Red Bull and I'm able to draw what I learned this past Friday. Marc Gutman 1:07:00 Yeah, I love that I love that we're not a water company. We're a brand and you know, even through the pandemic, you had a great promotion called murder your house? And do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about that? Because I thought that was just so, you know, people are really scrambling and thinking like how do we stay engaged, and it was such an interesting way to promote your own brand, stay super on brand, and have fun during this pandemic. We're a lot of people are really sensitive about having fun, people are scared to have fun. People are scared to talk about their brand in a fun way other than the tagline of in these difficult times, you know, this and that. And so I thought that was really ingenious. And you want to tell the listeners a little bit about, you know, just how that came about. And in the results of that? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:07:48 Well, you know, I must say we're very fortunate because we partnered with the Berrics. And for those who don't know, it's a it's a facility, backed by the likes of Eric koston and Steve Berra who ironically, was an airlock skater, and haven't have involved a lot, not only just for the visibility of it, but the authenticity of it. And yeah, people are what I just said earlier posting content about liquid death, which I'm flattered by but and that was not the point was like what authentic we there's some parts of the country. I was just talking to a guy today. He's like, dude, LA, I can't put my tap, like your water save us. This is awesome. So understand that. It's just okay. I have something. And I'd like to think and pandemics people do share. I mean, yeah. Did I want to get the cancer hands? Absolutely. But But I had something that people could use in certain parts of the country, you know, parts of New York, for instance, that don't have good water. You know, again, Mike has the background and escape, and knowing that people are gonna be bored out of their schools, but you also got to remember people love that forum. There are a lot of people want to be heard that they want that soapbox, you know, and the thought that they could do this, and have fun doing it. And not only that, people love to see content. We know that right? We want powerful visuals. And so that again it it was so amazing some of the submissions but I actually felt bad for the dude like trying even when I saw Him and who the runners up and there was so much stuff that was popping up and not even like on our feet like just randomly someone would tag us and post something other than they probably should submitted it you know? So it was just fun that it that it just so happened to be that we're split stay at home orders and then murder your house you know, but I talked to Mike and Mike really work closely with Steve Berra on that. And here we are. I don't know if you saw the winner but it's insane the turn brothers took a half an adult and during those guys in Florida I mean it's pretty next level like I'd like to see anyone that's heard senior pros comment on like, I don't know how I would ever even do that. You know? Marc Gutman 1:09:43 Yeah, I saw and to clarify for anyone listening, the murder your house promo was show us how you murder your house. And a lot of people submitted like you know, skating and all sorts of things and in their homes in the winter, which I believe you can see on Instagram. I can't remember I follow you on all my channel. So I think it was Instagram. Yep. Don't turn up Florida in this brothers. Yeah. Marc Gutman 1:10:04 Double Decker, from top to bottom through the house. I mean, it's just crazy. And so Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:10:09 yeah, and they just it was next level, we saw some really creative stuff and you know, these guys like, it's not a finger speech like their house was a skate park. Like I just, I mean, it's insane, you know, so they deserve all the accolades that come in their way. Marc Gutman 1:10:22 Yeah. And so, so stix. What are you most excited about with liquid death as you look to the future? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:10:28 I think the part that I'm so excited about is that I get to help, you know, I guess, grow this brand, knowing it's something that every single person on this earth needs. Okay, not everybody needs chocolate, every likes to taste alkane everybody likes beer. Energy drinks, unfortunately, have gotten kind of a bad connotation, but to have something that that and the other part is seeing people hold that key again, and instantly as an icebreaker for people who maybe are a little socially awkward. It's a conversation starter. You know, we've got people who are sober. And there's that psychology of man, I got a kid in my hand and looks, you know, are exploding water sparkling looks like a gift Miss Can someone say and say that that still looks like a devil can that psychology of you know what I don't drink and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that better for you. But like, you know what, this is something that this and we are in a infinitely recyclable container, you know. And I just it excites me that I can take what I've learned in the past music, garden action sports when I'm passionate about because, but it's bigger than that. I mean, we could put our water in daycares. We could put our water in elderly homes, you know, not that that little liquid death everywhere on a nursing home. But you know what I mean? Like I can, it's bigger than just that. I'm not, you know, there's certain things where we, you know, even if Redbull like certain, you know, they're so picky about what athletes represent them and what we're going to be and how that's why they own all their events. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that they've kept the clients And they've kept their brand. There's reason why it's a multi billion dollar brand. But I'm just excited knowing that this is something that, like, the governor's off, that makes sense. Like I can run with this. And there isn't really any thing on this earth that I can't get us involved in, you only mean with, within reason, right? And I can baptize a kid with our product. You know, that's pretty cool. You know. So that's the part that excites me the most is that the possibilities Marc Gutman 1:12:26 super cool. But as a brand, or as you know, sometimes when we have too many possibilities, it creates problems. So it'll be exciting to see, you know, where you do decide to take the brand in the future. It's a super exciting story. Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:12:38 Yeah, we were definitely keeping it tight to the best. Don't get me wrong. But you know, it's at the same token, again, like when I said earlier about past, like most events on this earth need water. And, you know, it's like, we're gonna make water you know, you could say make water cool. No, we're afraid we're not waterproof, but I'm gonna really make sure because it's back to the air walk reference. So we don't we can't be everything to everyone. You know, like, you don't want to try to your point bite off more than we can chew and to do stuff have kind of half baked, you know, we want to make sure that we're doing it right. But again, it's you don't need to explain water. You know, it's water. You know, that's it. Some people, of course, ask, is it flavored? Does it alcohol? That's fine. It's conversation starter. But it's it's funny to be like, wow, it's a different take on something that's been around eternity. Water, you know, and, but again, it's fun what we can do with this brand. So I'm really excited. Marc Gutman 1:13:31 Absolutely stix as we come down to the end of our time here. If you ran into your 20 year old self, what do you think he'd say, if he saw you today? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:13:40 I think he'd be like, how did you get here from Minnesota? Where you are like how? Because this is what the prospects weren't there back then. But my answer to him would be I worked my tail off to get here. This isn't handed to me, nothing in my career has been handed to me. And that's the thing I'm most proud of. But it's like it like that. To me my Exhibit A when I'm trying to teach my identical twin boys. It's amazing. What's the saying? I'm amazed how much luck I have the harder I work, you know, and that's I firmly back that Yeah, you can say there's certain things like I said when the stars align whatever but I am proud that I sit here today and I'm fortunate enough to be on your podcast. Literally hard work and relationships really is but it's a two way street not just taken from someone but they're people. You meet a certain group of people that you support each other and you have a common goal. God it's amazing what you can accomplish. And I've been really fortunate that I've had some really amazing coworkers you know evergrande like worked at and many of which are still dear friends of mine. Marc Gutman 1:14:40 Six where can our listeners find out about more about you and liquid death? Steve "Stix" Nilsen 1:14:46 Well, I liquiddeath.com or @liquid death is the social handle my social handle being @stixaround but one word stix around. But that was that was what I would do is play around whenever we're adding content and fun things. All the time on our social and our website. And we're really excited right now, the big news is we're in Whole Foods. And that partnership has been amazing. We've been doing really well. They're very easy to deal with. They're our grocer right now. And it's, you know, I know there's a lot of brands who would love to be in Whole Foods, and I'm starting to get pictures daily. of them, literally, some of the displays, they're building and whatnot. And it's starting to catch on and people are obviously asking what the heck is this, but it's amazing to work with someone who understands how to cater to their customers, and make the shopping experience very positive specially under these conditions nowadays, and to work with to understand merchandising, understand brands, understand the field, their stores, and whatnot, and to work with them. It's just been amazing. So every day, we're gaining momentum. And that's really exciting. Marc Gutman 1:15:57 And that is Stix, aka Steve Nilson with liquid death. Is there a better name than exploding water for liquid death seltzer? I think not. In his creativity with different brands, regardless of budget goes to show that when you have money, like when he did it Red Bull, you still can't buy a great idea. And we don't have money. Like when he was at Paps, you can come up with incredibly effective marketing that doesn't cost a lot. Thank you again to stix and liquid death. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. I like Big backstories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.